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ThePrinceOfNigeria
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
175
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 10:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
When I think "meta-gaming" I think scamming immediately. Scams are great. People on the lookout for scams or over doing them is not. I'm against this class on the sole purpose that you are going to possibly teach people how to look out for scams. Which is bad for my business. Thanks anyways |
Naedeus
DUST University Ivy League
216
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 10:56:00 -
[32] - Quote
Banning Hammer wrote: You Corp is a good example ....You train and educate people, because Dust 514 Tutorials and New Player experience sucks, you practically doing CCP's job, taking the role of something that should be a GAME FEATURE.
The new player experience does, indeed suck. However, CCP has been taking the necessary steps on improving it, and the new tutorial system that has been introduced can be worked on and improved. It's a start. However, what you fail to realize is that DUST University would still be around even if the NPE and Dust 514 Tutorials were wonderful and on par to what we want to see. There are still plenty of aspects in this game that we cover.
With your previous statement, it honestly sounds like you want CCP to waste time, money, and man-hours on making tutorials for every little thing in the game, rather than... you know... adding content to the game or fixing existing bugs.
I guess it's a bad thing to help new players stick around to the game that has a sucky tutorial system. |
Naedeus
DUST University Ivy League
216
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 11:00:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mortedeamor wrote: no but you can expect someone who picks up a fps to be able to get 1 kill..i had no problem getting 1 kill when i began...blue dots nowadays are pulling 0/16 0/13 0/10 ..and i have seen the same results from your students.(is why i leave match when i see dust university on my side in pubs)maybe you should up your recruiting standards to exclude people who suck at fps to avoid this kind of mockery?
And go against our goals to help new players, regardless of whether they're good at an FPS or not? We're a corporation of 1,000 plus members, and we accept applications on a daily basis. Not every single person who plays DUST is going to be a FPS veteran. The point of this corporation is to help people improve themselves, and in time they will. |
Lorhak Gannarsein
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
487
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 11:00:00 -
[34] - Quote
Mortedeamor wrote:Naedeus wrote:daishi mk03 wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote:I hate this corp. The highest concentration of fan boys per square inch. Full of pretentious BS too. Thanks for the awesome OP - the usual pretentious self-promotion. I fully agree and +1. These hypocrites should be kicked out of Dust and never come back again ... whole Dust University. Never had a good experience with those guys, when they were in my team or my opponents. Bad play, lack of teamplay, won't even let you join their half full squads and they cry like babies in forums. Gg no re I... don't think you realize that Dust University has over a thousand something members, and that most of them are new to the game, thus still learning how to play the game. You can't expect everyone to be instantly good the moment they start DUST 514... so this 'lack of team play' and 'bad play' style you're apparently talking about should improve with time. As for the 'won't even let you join their half full squads' comment.. that's laughable at best. As I keep telling people, if you do not join Squad comms when you join a D-UNI squad, you're more than likely to be removed by discretion of the Squad Leader. Otherwise you're just taking up a space that was being saved for a corp mate. How our members run their squads is completely up to them... especially considering the fact that they almost always ask if a random non-corp member has squad comms active. no but you can expect someone who picks up a fps to be able to get 1 kill..i had no problem getting 1 kill when i began...blue dots nowadays are pulling 0/16 0/13 0/10 ..and i have seen the same results from your students.(is why i leave match when i see dust university on my side in pubs)maybe you should up your recruiting standards to exclude people who suck at fps to avoid this kind of mockery?
kinda defeats the purpose :P
after all, the whole point of D-Uni is to give a place for people to suck at FPS together :) |
Banning Hammer
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
1994
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 11:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
Naedeus wrote:Banning Hammer wrote: You Corp is a good example ....You train and educate people, because Dust 514 Tutorials and New Player experience sucks, you practically doing CCP's job, taking the role of something that should be a GAME FEATURE.
The new player experience does, indeed suck. However, CCP has been taking the necessary steps on improving it, and the new tutorial system that has been introduced can be worked on and improved. It's a start. However, what you fail to realize is that DUST University would still be around even if the NPE and Dust 514 Tutorials were wonderful and on par to what we want to see. There are still plenty of aspects in this game that we cover. With your previous statement, it honestly sounds like you want CCP to waste time, money, and man-hours on making tutorials for every little thing in the game, rather than... you know... adding content to the game or fixing existing bugs. I guess it's a bad thing to help new players stick around to the game that has a sucky tutorial system.
Don't get me wrong... i think you guys do a great job, i just saying that CCP shouldn't use your Corp as an excuse to Push Back something that in most games will be Priority Number One ;
- Strong New Player Experience - Comprehensive Tutorials
The game shouldn't been release without that two things. Is like the "Holy grail" of gaming.... The MOST have thing. |
Naedeus
DUST University Ivy League
216
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 11:05:00 -
[36] - Quote
ThePrinceOfNigeria wrote:When I think "meta-gaming" I think scamming immediately. Scams are great. People on the lookout for scams or over doing them is not. I'm against this class on the sole purpose that you are going to possibly teach people how to look out for scams. Which is bad for my business. Thanks anyways
I don't think he'll be covering scamming. |
Naedeus
DUST University Ivy League
216
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 11:08:00 -
[37] - Quote
Banning Hammer wrote:
Don't get me wrong... i think you guys do a great job, i just saying that CCP shouldn't use your Corp as an excuse to Push Back something that in most games will be Priority Number One ;
- Strong New Player Experience - Comprehensive Tutorials
The game shouldn't been release without that two things. Is like the "Holy grail" of gaming.... The MOST have thing.
As far as I'm aware... CCP isn't using our corporation as an excuse to push back the NPE and Tutorials. In fact... myself a couple of other tiered members in D-UNI have been pushing for a better NPE and Tutorials... we have a suggestion thread on our private forums that our CEO mails out to CCP on a near weekly basis.
Trust me when I say that we want a stronger NPE and improved tutorials.
|
Banning Hammer
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
1994
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 11:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
Naedeus wrote:Banning Hammer wrote:
Don't get me wrong... i think you guys do a great job, i just saying that CCP shouldn't use your Corp as an excuse to Push Back something that in most games will be Priority Number One ;
- Strong New Player Experience - Comprehensive Tutorials
The game shouldn't been release without that two things. Is like the "Holy grail" of gaming.... The MOST have thing.
As far as I'm aware... CCP isn't using our corporation as an excuse to push back the NPE and Tutorials. In fact... myself a couple of other tiered members in D-UNI have been pushing for a better NPE and Tutorials... we have a suggestion thread on our private forums that our CEO mails out to CCP on a near weekly basis. Trust me when I say that we want a stronger NPE and improved tutorials.
Here is an interesting fact ;
Most people will decide if they like an MMO or not ,after 5 hours of game play ....if after 5 hours they are Bore or frustrated, they will leave the game and never come back.
CCP should be aiming at that 5 hours gap ... not the first 20 minutes. |
Gaist Laizalis
DUST University Ivy League
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 11:34:00 -
[39] - Quote
Mortedeamor wrote:no but you can expect someone who picks up a fps to be able to get 1 kill..i had no problem getting 1 kill when i began...blue dots nowadays are pulling 0/16 0/13 0/10 ..and i have seen the same results from your students.(is why i leave match when i see dust university on my side in pubs)maybe you should up your recruiting standards to exclude people who suck at fps to avoid this kind of mockery? Are you really this ignorant? Please tell me you're just trolling and you're not actually this revolting, intellectually. How about we start screening children for dyslexia and blacklist them from ever getting into a public school? How about, any time a child is graded "F" in any subject, we expel them! It's DUST UNIVERSITY. Players who go "0/16, 0/13, 0/10" are part of our demographic. We want them to join so we can help them get better. DUST University doesn't have expectations. We accept everybody, from the elite FPS experts, to the players who've never tried an FPS.
I'm sure you're too lazy to actually check player lists every match and leave when you see D-Uni on your team, but if you're not, I'm glad. I know I wouldn't want a fool like you on my team. |
Naedeus
DUST University Ivy League
217
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 12:06:00 -
[40] - Quote
While aggressive, Gaist does have a point. D-UNI is a safe haven for the casual gamer or the new gamer whose never experienced an FPS like Dust 514. |
|
Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
777
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 12:11:00 -
[41] - Quote
Gaist Laizalis wrote:Mortedeamor wrote:no but you can expect someone who picks up a fps to be able to get 1 kill..i had no problem getting 1 kill when i began...blue dots nowadays are pulling 0/16 0/13 0/10 ..and i have seen the same results from your students.(is why i leave match when i see dust university on my side in pubs)maybe you should up your recruiting standards to exclude people who suck at fps to avoid this kind of mockery? Are you really this ignorant? Please tell me you're just trolling and you're not actually this revolting, intellectually. How about we start screening children for dyslexia and blacklist them from ever getting into a public school? How about, any time a child is graded "F" in any subject, we expel them! It's DUST UNIVERSITY. Players who go "0/16, 0/13, 0/10" are part of our demographic. We want them to join so we can help them get better. DUST University doesn't have expectations. We accept everybody, from the elite FPS experts, to the players who've never tried an FPS. I'm sure you're too lazy to actually check player lists every match and leave when you see D-Uni on your team, but if you're not, I'm glad. I know I wouldn't want a fool like you on my team. ignore this guy, he is a pathetic troll. just look at his recent posts, he is not worth the bytes his account take space away from the server.
and beside that, the last time I saw this guy in game he did not even made half the WP I did |
Fire of Prometheus
DUST University Ivy League
1270
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 13:44:00 -
[42] - Quote
Well this started off good and then the trolls got a hold of it :/ |
Fire of Prometheus
DUST University Ivy League
1270
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 13:46:00 -
[43] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:I would like to request further lectures on the following topics:
-History behind each race (have like 10 minutes brief summary, followed by 40-50 minutes more in detail for those who'd listen, like me) <- so roughly an hour. PER RACE, mind you. I don't want no wishy-washy talk rushed because all races were crammed into one.
-What happens in EVE. What you guys put into this I leave up to you. As a 99% DUST player (played EVE trial and am thinking about getting serious about it next year) I am mostly clueless about EVE. For example, for weeks after PC was introduced, I thought 'plexing' meant the act of trading PLEX, those in-game time cards. Confused the shiet out of me. I thought, what the hell is FW doing influencing that? I only realised it was short for complexing, and what that meant, after some research. Maybe 30-40 minutes for general explanations about EVE with 1-hour sessions specifically on a certain topic within EVE.
Would love Q&A sessions for these too. HOWEVER if EVE Uni does these lectures and they can be accessed from DUST, point them out. I was thinking though, EVE lectures may contain terminology foreign to the average DUST bunny. Referencing hotkeys, for example.
-Technology behind weapons. Perhaps some of your teachers may understand how lasers, plasma, snipers work? How they should work? How they SHOULDN'T? Would be interesting to know some of these logical flaws and the gaping holes where realism clashes with good gameplay. Short or long, depending on the interest of the lecturer. Maybe no Q&A as it could get controversial.
-Even just talking about forum threads of interesting topics, and getting people to express their opinions. I'm sure that it is the vocal minority on this place constantly; I'd love to see you guys report back on the community's views on an idea expressed in a forum thread.
Additionally:
-Streaming? I don't know, this may be a bit of a stretch, but DUST offers gameplay that will captivate audiences far more than EVE could. Perhaps streaming a game and describing what you're doing, etc.
-
Anyways, good luck with this lecture. I won't be attending personally but I hope you don't get too many mic trolls.
We will most likely be having plenty more public lectures from varying topics but it all depends on how this one goes :) |
Roner General
Ancient Exiles
110
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 14:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
You guys have to be good at the game first before giving "advice" |
Kevall Longstride
DUST University Ivy League
596
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 14:50:00 -
[45] - Quote
A History Lesson.
CCP have never really been very good at the tutorial thing. Just look at the Eve one. A decade since the game's launch and the tutorial is still minimal. It's miles better than it first was and CCP have recently been doing some of their versions of lectures in chat channels for new players.
Our sister corp and fellow member of the IVY League Alliance, EVE University, perform the same function as we do in EVE but with 9 years of history and procedure behind it. We're very young in comparison. D-UNI was founded in 2009 when Dust 514 was first announced by then CEO of E-UNI, Kelduum Revaan, so as to reserve the name. Between then and when the game entered closed beta last year, there was very little movement in the development of DUST University.
Then I got involved.
Fanfest 2012 was the first I'd attended and the one where Dust was first there as a playable beta by the attendees. My initial thoughts were that the game was a fairly low rent COD wannabe and had a bloody awful control system, handicapped by what was and continues to be considered, the worst console controller of this gen. But it had potential and with OB's being demonstrated for the first time I was excited by what CCP were trying to do. All attendees that year got a beta access key, so when the closed beta started, I bit the bullet and brought a PS3 just for Dust 514. Other than the rather excellent The Last Of Us, it remains the only game I have on the PS3.
From the beginning of the closed beta, it was clear that CCP had listened to a lot of the criticism that was given to them by those that played it at Fanfest and I found that I was rather enjoying it. As a member of E-UNI at the time I asked Kelduum if I could help with D-UNI in some way. Kelduum was too busy with E-UNI and being on the CSM at the time so he instantly said you can run it!
The actual corp itself was unavailable as the game wasn't linked to TQ in any way, so I created a proto-corp within Dust 514 and with Kelduum publicly confirming that I was the guy in charge, I set about using the forums and the Eve Client to start up the corp proper.
Those of you that had been around at the time will remember just how much of a ball breaker running a Dust corp was back then. While many others were lobbying for weapon balancing and the shiney in the forums, I was lobbying hard for the corp infrastructure to be improved. While I would never claim to be responsible for the introduction of corp mail, notifications, roles, I like to think I had a part in getting them in the game earlier than they would. Even if it was just so CCP could shut me up about them. Anyone that was a Dust player at this years Fanfest will know just how much I was pushing for all the infrastructure to be brought in. I still do now and I'm not going to stop till I get it all.
Now, as to if we do CCP's job, I don't see that we do. I see us more as a companion to the NPE. There have been some pretty big improvements to it in the last point build. Some of it almost mirroring the suggestions I've made for it in emails to CCP, You'd have to ask them how big a part community ideas were factored into it.
Games as complex as Eve and Dust don't tend to have tutorial that cover everything. They evolve too much for such things to stay current. And CCP have a great resource in the community that their games create. Even if this game has a complete tutorial, we'd still be here. This IS meta gaming. We're using the tools that CCP create and we make play in the sandbox and shape it to what we want.
It's why I'm here and I suspect, its why you're here reading this too.
|
daishi mk03
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
266
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 16:16:00 -
[46] - Quote
Gaist Laizalis wrote:You're playing the wrong game. Go back to Battlefield or CoD for your gun-shooting fix. DUST 514 is going to have Meta Game.
Jack McReady wrote:ignore this guy, he is a pathetic troll. just look at his recent posts, he is not worth the bytes his account take space away from the server. and beside that, the last time I saw this guy in game he did not even made half the WP I did
It is the same I say about you and your whole Dust University. You are not worth anything and please leave.
Edit: Beside the face, that you took a bribe from EoN and you are ANYTHING, but neutral. You should not be allowed to call the stuff you do "teaching". |
Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
778
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 16:57:00 -
[47] - Quote
daishi mk03 wrote:Gaist Laizalis wrote:You're playing the wrong game. Go back to Battlefield or CoD for your gun-shooting fix. DUST 514 is going to have Meta Game. Jack McReady wrote:ignore this guy, he is a pathetic troll. just look at his recent posts, he is not worth the bytes his account take space away from the server. and beside that, the last time I saw this guy in game he did not even made half the WP I did It is the same I say about you and your whole Dust University. You are not worth anything and please leave. Edit: Beside the face, that you took a bribe from EoN and you are ANYTHING, but neutral. You should not be allowed to call the stuff you do "teaching". Cute how this random scrub tries to look tough. Please tell me more... |
Knight Soiaire
P.O.I.N.T.L.E.S.S A.C.R.O.N.Y.M
2792
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 16:59:00 -
[48] - Quote
daishi mk03 wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote:I hate this corp. The highest concentration of fan boys per square inch. Full of pretentious BS too. Thanks for the awesome OP - the usual pretentious self-promotion. I fully agree and +1. These hypocrites should be kicked out of Dust and never come back again ... whole Dust University. Never had a good experience with those guys, when they were in my team or my opponents. Bad play, lack of teamplay, won't even let you join their half full squads and they cry like babies in forums. Gg no re
I dont know if you're being serious.....
But aren't you a redline tanker?
|
Fire of Prometheus
DUST University Ivy League
1274
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 16:59:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:daishi mk03 wrote:Gaist Laizalis wrote:You're playing the wrong game. Go back to Battlefield or CoD for your gun-shooting fix. DUST 514 is going to have Meta Game. Jack McReady wrote:ignore this guy, he is a pathetic troll. just look at his recent posts, he is not worth the bytes his account take space away from the server. and beside that, the last time I saw this guy in game he did not even made half the WP I did It is the same I say about you and your whole Dust University. You are not worth anything and please leave. Edit: Beside the face, that you took a bribe from EoN and you are ANYTHING, but neutral. You should not be allowed to call the stuff you do "teaching". Cute how this random scrub tries to look tough. Please tell me more... Npc corp....nuff said |
daishi mk03
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
266
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 17:27:00 -
[50] - Quote
Cute Dust University ... 6 man died to NPC Corp Show me your skills? Tasty |
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Erasmus Konstantin
Goonfeet Top Men.
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 17:27:00 -
[51] - Quote
Well, if there's anything Dust University could be considered a leading authority on, it's being on the receiving end of the meta-game. |
21yrOld Knight
Pradox XVI
218
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 17:30:00 -
[52] - Quote
TrueXer0z get members of dust university to tell their local channel to get the word out more. |
daishi mk03
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
266
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 17:42:00 -
[53] - Quote
Knight Soiaire wrote:daishi mk03 wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote:I hate this corp. The highest concentration of fan boys per square inch. Full of pretentious BS too. Thanks for the awesome OP - the usual pretentious self-promotion. I fully agree and +1. These hypocrites should be kicked out of Dust and never come back again ... whole Dust University. Never had a good experience with those guys, when they were in my team or my opponents. Bad play, lack of teamplay, won't even let you join their half full squads and they cry like babies in forums. Gg no re I dont know if you're being serious..... But aren't you a redline tanker?
Scattered Neutron, PG, 180mm Poly, Heavy IG-L, 2 Carapace, Active Heatsink II, Jovian Acc.
You're welcome.
Moar?. 6 Swarmers + OS and can't kill a single blaster maddy, gg.
D-Uni should leave FW, you lose every game lol. |
Fire of Prometheus
DUST University Ivy League
1276
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 17:46:00 -
[54] - Quote
daishi mk03 wrote:Cute Dust University ... 6 man died to NPC Corp Show me your skills? Tasty Notice that suspicious looking line up of people from the same corp? |
TrueXer0z
DUST University Ivy League
211
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 17:50:00 -
[55] - Quote
Wooo...I go to sleep and look at all the posts. Fun times. This is good. I scanned through most of it. But Someone said something that caught my eye. Forum trolling is a form of Meta Gaming. People take the time to say anything negative they can to get a rise out of people and provoke a response. It can be used in many ways. Most people do it just for the laughs, some have alternative motives. Either way it is a promotion of what this class is about.
Meta Gaming is such a broad subject. So many aspects can be use to manipulate the game we play. I honestly don't feel it is something CCP hoped would allow them to slack, but leave things open. Allow the player to create their own universe in which they can become almost anything they want.
Yes, the game is still a long way from complete. I couldn't agree more. We as players should take the time to constructively come together and help CCP understand the biggest issues at this moment. Which I think we do already on some levels. Think about what you are saying as well. Are your ideas based on absolute fact, or just random encounters in which you did not benefit from? We as players have more control over the progression of this games development then any other game in history. Dust & Eve. Be thankful for that.
This post was a product of Meta Gaming. Every action has a reaction. |
Zabuth Vrykol
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 17:53:00 -
[56] - Quote
TrueXer0z wrote:Wooo...I go to sleep and look at all the posts. Fun times. This is good. I scanned through most of it. But Someone said something that caught my eye. Forum trolling is a form of Meta Gaming. People take the time to say anything negative they can to get a rise out of people and provoke a response. It can be used in many ways. Most people do it just for the laughs, some have alternative motives. Either way it is a promotion of what this class is about.
Meta Gaming is such a broad subject. So many aspects can be use to manipulate the game we play. I honestly don't feel it is something CCP hoped would allow them to slack, but leave things open. Allow the player to create their own universe in which they can become almost anything they want.
Yes, the game is still a long way from complete. I couldn't agree more. We as players should take the time to constructively come together and help CCP understand the biggest issues at this moment. Which I think we do already on some levels. Think about what you are saying as well. Are your ideas based on absolute fact, or just random encounters in which you did not benefit from? We as players have more control over the progression of this games development then any other game in history. Dust & Eve. Be thankful for that.
This post was a product of Meta Gaming. Every action has a reaction.
well no **** professor
|
Fire of Prometheus
DUST University Ivy League
1276
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 17:55:00 -
[57] - Quote
TrueXer0z wrote:Wooo...I go to sleep and look at all the posts. Fun times. This is good. I scanned through most of it. But Someone said something that caught my eye. Forum trolling is a form of Meta Gaming. People take the time to say anything negative they can to get a rise out of people and provoke a response. It can be used in many ways. Most people do it just for the laughs, some have alternative motives. Either way it is a promotion of what this class is about.
Meta Gaming is such a broad subject. So many aspects can be use to manipulate the game we play. I honestly don't feel it is something CCP hoped would allow them to slack, but leave things open. Allow the player to create their own universe in which they can become almost anything they want.
Yes, the game is still a long way from complete. I couldn't agree more. We as players should take the time to constructively come together and help CCP understand the biggest issues at this moment. Which I think we do already on some levels. Think about what you are saying as well. Are your ideas based on absolute fact, or just random encounters in which you did not benefit from? We as players have more control over the progression of this games development then any other game in history. Dust & Eve. Be thankful for that.
This post was a product of Meta Gaming. Every action has a reaction. Last line....newtons 2nd law.....or was it 3rd? |
daishi mk03
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
266
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 18:04:00 -
[58] - Quote
Fire of Prometheus wrote:daishi mk03 wrote:Cute Dust University ... 6 man died to NPC Corp Show me your skills? Tasty Notice that suspicious looking line up of people from the same corp?
You said I make up my stories, I show you Gallente is fked, thanks to your corp. |
Fire of Prometheus
DUST University Ivy League
1276
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 18:06:00 -
[59] - Quote
daishi mk03 wrote:Fire of Prometheus wrote:daishi mk03 wrote:Cute Dust University ... 6 man died to NPC Corp Show me your skills? Tasty Notice that suspicious looking line up of people from the same corp? You said I make up my stories, I show you Gallente is fked, thanks to your corp. I fail to see how 1 battle, is going to screw up an empire, personally I fight amarr so I don't really care if they go play gallente fw |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
613
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 18:08:00 -
[60] - Quote
Naedeus wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote:I hate this corp. The highest concentration of fan boys per square inch. Full of pretentious BS too. Thanks for the awesome OP - the usual pretentious self-promotion. That's nice, thanks for the free bump.
Keep it. |
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