Personally i think the damage change is acceptable.
my only issue is with the lock on range for swarms. at 175m both dropships and redline rail tanks are gonna be pretty much invincible.
Dropships already to hit an AB or fly to the ceiling to avoid my proto swarms 400m lock on and redline tank will just sit at 180m and happily sit sniping knowing they cant be locked.

i've also mentioned several times about some new Swarm skills that could be introduced to add more specialization and to help combat AB dropships.

Swarm Missile Flight Time - increases flight time of Swarm Missiles by 10% per level
Swarm Missile Velocity - Increase flight speed of Swarm Missiles by 10% per level

have each equivalent multiplier to the proficiency and those who wish to skill them can do so an dit helps swarms hit those pesky speed ships and maybe land a hit or two

So a specialization is a buff? MLT hulls will have 2 HP tank slots, while STD hulls will have 3 HP tank slots. That's a buff? Active repair modules are being removed. That's a buff?

So a specialization is a buff? MLT hulls will have 2 HP tank slots, while STD hulls will have 3 HP tank slots. That's a buff? Active repair modules are being removed. That's a buff?

math says that despite the low amounts of slots highest end tanks will have 20k ehp... that is actually a buff.

the announced nerfed swarm would need half a minute of CONTINOUS shooting to kill the announced tanks. and this assumes the tank driver does not bother to actually move at all.

yes you read it right, half a minute... you can be sure that these changes either wont go live or tanks will sooner or later get a nerf again you would be very naiv expecting those values to stay.

Here is the big problem with things as a "deterrent"
If I know for a fact that what you carry has no chance of killing me before I kill you and considering that I can heal all the damage I have taken what is the incentive for me to avoid attacking you?

I posted the following on the weapons thread, but think it would be good information to have in a nonrant/fighting thread.

"Just gonna pop in here with some comparavtive stats for the weapon changes vs the proposed madruger stats.

Mads are assumed fit with armor hardner and one each of the 60 and 120 complex plates

Noskills:
Current Swarm Unfit Mad: 11.24 seconds 3.51 shots used
New Swarm Unfit Mad: 16.87 seconds 5.27 shots used
Current Swarm Fit Mad: 21.7 seconds and 6.78 shots used
New Swarms Fit Mad: 32.58 seconds 10.18 shots used

Full skiils and weapon dmg mods:
Current Swarm Unfit Mad: 4.11 seconds 2.41 shots
New Swarms Unfit Mad: 11.6 seconds and 3.62 shots
Current Swarms Fit Mad: 14.9 seconds 4.6 shots
New Swarms Fit Mad: 22.4 seconds 7 shots

if you wish to check for yourself try here www.dust514stats.com/compare.cfm it's a work in progress but it works."

While yes I do not have reps in yet, because coding them is rather diffcult and am working on it. all the changed weapons have Changes infront of the name, the new weapons don't because they are new.

math says that despite the low amounts of slots highest end tanks will have 20k ehp... that is actually a buff.

the announced nerfed swarm would need half a minute of CONTINOUS shooting to kill the announced tanks. and this assumes the tank driver does not bother to actually move at all.

yes you read it right, half a minute... you can be sure that these changes either wont go live or tanks will sooner or later get a nerf again you would be very naiv expecting those values to stay.

The deterrent factor comes into play when a tank pilot gets too close to his enemies, there is a good chance that a few of his foes are carrying AV nades each with 3 shots at them, and if there are 3-7 AV carriers, the pilot could be in some serious trouble, a single AVnader should have never been able to take on a tank pilot, it should be the fear of multiple that makes them run. And with some of the changes coming to LAVs and turrets, we can expect them to play a more important role in scaring off LAVs with a more offensive role, while Dropships commonly flee from just the very sight of their EHP dropping more than just 20%.

I know it sounds a little far fetched, but I honestly believe this is the best course of action for AV nades, remember when murder-taxis were a big thing, every single player I knew started carrying AV nades to deal with them, if tanks start becoming a problem, players will respond accordingly.

I posted the following on the weapons thread, but think it would be good information to have in a nonrant/fighting thread.

"Just gonna pop in here with some comparavtive stats for the weapon changes vs the proposed madruger stats.

Mads are assumed fit with armor hardner and one each of the 60 and 120 complex plates

Noskills:
Current Swarm Unfit Mad: 11.24 seconds 3.51 shots used
New Swarm Unfit Mad: 16.87 seconds 5.27 shots used
Current Swarm Fit Mad: 21.7 seconds and 6.78 shots used
New Swarms Fit Mad: 32.58 seconds 10.18 shots used

Full skiils and weapon dmg mods:
Current Swarm Unfit Mad: 4.11 seconds 2.41 shots
New Swarms Unfit Mad: 11.6 seconds and 3.62 shots
Current Swarms Fit Mad: 14.9 seconds 4.6 shots
New Swarms Fit Mad: 22.4 seconds 7 shots

if you wish to check for yourself try here www.dust514stats.com/compare.cfm it's a work in progress but it works."

While yes I do not have reps in yet, because coding them is rather diffcult and am working on it. all the changed weapons have Changes infront of the name, the new weapons don't because they are new.

At least you put a disclaimer in but tech its still wrong and misleading numbers

Honestly if they took large blasters turrets away from tanks, tanker wouldn't complain about being destroyed by av grenades. Only the ones who run into a group of infantry have the av grenade problem. Tanks should vs vehicles not infantry. If thats what they call balancing game will continue to go down. If respect happen there will be nothing but tanks on a fps video game.

Do you have more accurate numbers? Because as he said the only thing missing is reps and those just serve to increase the time it takes to kill a tank

I use pen and paper with a calc for mine, everyone can do it

I just disagree with spamming these numbers as fact when its not

So you deny his data but refuse to supply any of your own? Interesting
But you are right, his numbers are under ideal conditions that will never happen IE an unmoving tank that you can fire at uninterrupted and not have to worry about ammo resupply, when you consider that and what real in game conditions are like you realize those numbers climb even higher

Honestly if they took large blasters turrets away from tanks, tanker wouldn't complain about being destroyed by av grenades. Only the ones who run into a group of infantry have the av grenade problem. Tanks should vs vehicles not infantry. If thats what they call balancing game will continue to go down. If respect happen there will be nothing but tanks on a fps video game.

1: tanks takes out infantry irl

2: You can still take out infantry with rails and missiles easily

3: Gallente's primary weapon is blasters

These three facts makes the answer to a definite no.

AV can destroy vesicles in real life with ease, (Guided Missiles and drones anyone?)

And yeah save for that one Mimmitar scout carrying Lai Dais , only tankers who drive into crowds of infantry have to deal with AV grenades, which is why I use missiles. because I don't have to be in CQC to be effective with them

CCP has mentioned that they would be looking into redlining prevention methods, one of the ideas was to make all kills in the redline not count for points, so it would make redlining pointless.

I think those are great ideas for skills, I'm not too sure on those exact values but I'm all for the idea, skills like these would make most issues with the 175m range acceptable.

If we are talking just grenades then its extremely foolish to just assume everyone with a grenade was blowing up tanks left right and center, they only time a person on foot using just grenades would blow up a tank was if they were using an unfitted militia tank or if that particular tank driver was just out and out bad and even then it requires resupplying and staying in a limited area so you could resupply from a hive or supply depot and lets not forget tanks movement speed is far above that of infantry or even the throwing speed of a grenade so like I said only bad tankers were getting blown up by a single person with only grenades
The scenario you describe of several guys throwing at once was exactly what was happening before

As for tanks becoming a problem with these nerfs there is now very little than can be done, grenades have the same limitations as before in addition to drastically reduced damage, and swarms are a joke when you compare the stats
For instance an unfitted militia tank, sica or soma it doesnt matter, has enough EHP to eat a full clip from a proto level swarm
Please let that sink in a bit, militia level gear with 0 SP put into is not threatened by proto level gear
Now lets say I do actually fit that tank, I get hit by one proto level swarm which doesnt even do enough damage to take down the shields of an armor tank no less and now I know I have more than a second to flip on my hardeners and such so the follow up shots bounce off of me and give me more than enough time to cruise to safety out of range since they cant keep up on foot
Its pretty much the exact definition of pay to win if to destroy a militia tank before he can turn on modules and cruise away you need to hit him with four proto level shots all within a fraction of a second of each other
The absolute only way this would be acceptable to balance is if a tank required a crew to operate or there was some way of disabling its mobility such as damaging the treads to force it to remain stationary