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Dusters Blog
Galactic News Network
478
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Posted - 2013.10.24 11:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
'While customization is easily one of the best aspects of Dust 514, there are too many instances where classes are not operating as intended and its hurting gameplay. We have zero issue with a Heavy Sniper, Heavy or Scout Shotgunner as the pros and cons balance out with both. But when suits are comparable in speed to the scout, have close to the protection of the Heavy or exceed the assault in attacking power something is amiss. Bad math has allowed many of these issues to crop up and smart players are doing what they always do: Taking advantage of loopholes in gameplay. This week we saw one of the best suggestions we've ever seen aimed at curbing some of the balance issues that plague Dust gameplay: Fitting Penalties.'
read the rest here http://tinyurl.com/l3tvrab |
Reiki Jubo
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
216
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Posted - 2013.10.24 11:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
anything that makes scouts better and stops logis from being the ultimate weapon. |
mini rehak
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
123
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Posted - 2013.10.24 12:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Blog wrote:Heavy - Dmg mods/protection Assault - Dmg mods/weapons What if you are an assault/heavy and you are not speced into dmg mods? I think the current system is fine it's just the scouts that need work. If you are an assault and you want to sacrifice speed/shield recharge/prof. dampening ect. to get a ****-ton of HP you should be able too. If you are a heavy and you want to run as fast as a scout (not gonna happen but still) you should be able to try. Adding in penalties for trying a new type of fitting is wrong. If you are doing this then it's no different than the class system in BF3, you may think you are different than everyone else but in reality the only thing he doesn't have is a red dot. |
Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
2214
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Posted - 2013.10.24 12:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
So basically "Waaaaaah the mean assault man is killing me, how dare he choose a class designed to be versatile and not die to my fitting thats designed for a very specific purpose"
Now let the tears flow like whine from guys getting butt hurt at that statement |
Tolen Rosas
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
275
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 12:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
mini rehak wrote:Blog wrote:Heavy - Dmg mods/protection Assault - Dmg mods/weapons What if you are an assault/heavy and you are not speced into dmg mods? I think the current system is fine it's just the scouts that need work. If you are an assault and you want to sacrifice speed/shield recharge/prof. dampening ect. to get a ****-ton of HP you should be able too. If you are a heavy and you want to run as fast as a scout (not gonna happen but still) you should be able to try. Adding in penalties for trying a new type of fitting is wrong. If you are doing this then it's no different than the class system in BF3, you may think you are different than everyone else but in reality the only thing he doesn't have is a red dot.
BF a bad example, its nowhere near that limiting. problem is u still have logis better at combat than assaults with 800HP or triple damage mods. add in the scanner and its the perfect hunter. as long as the logi is a super soldier they need to keep tweaking. |
Prius Vecht
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
168
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Posted - 2013.10.24 12:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Delta 749 wrote:So basically "Waaaaaah the mean assault man is killing me, how dare he choose a class designed to be versatile and not die to my fitting thats designed for a very specific purpose"
Now let the tears flow like whine from guys getting butt hurt at that statement
the uprising tac AR was also versatile as it dominated close range and far. its bad design.......i dont fault you taking advantage of it but its hardly operating as intended.
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
473
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Posted - 2013.10.24 12:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
I would think that a better method than penalties would be actually making a given suit the best choice for a given role.
Like, for example, damage reduction or resistance for heavies. Or greater speed and stealth for scouts.
But what do I know?... |
Sgt Kirk
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
2350
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 12:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Scouts can't have their full potential revealed until they have eWarfare and additional content to which the scout suits can take advantage of.
Like most problems in this game the cause of the issue is lack a content.
Standard Vehicles - ADV, Proto, AV Heavies- Lack of heavy suits/weapons. Scouts-No scout functionality.
I'd also like to note that as a gallente Soldier there are few modules for highslots (thankfully damage mods are there) while there are numerous modules for low slots. |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French CRONOS.
1937
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 13:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
This suggestion reminds me of something i talked about for quite some day. Bonuses and shield\armor balancing.
Dual tanking is another example of that issue. You dont have penalties for using shield extenders (there should be though), and you cant use a too big penalty for wearing armor plates or you risk hurting too much specific suits.
So in the end, your best bet is to try and mix both as much as you can. (behold the logis of doom and their multiple slots)
So yeah, i'd support adding a layer to the suits that would reinforce the feeling they are intended to use specific modules and encourage ppl in sticking to that without taking away the possibilities to mix everything a little.
For example, if we had a higher movement penalties for plates and a bonus tied to the Gallente Suits that would reduce that penalty, you could end up with gallente having lower penalties than what we have now and shield warriors being way much carefull on stacking those plates because it would chew their speed away.
With the current skill tree, a solution would be to tie a bonus to the basic frame skill of every suit. That bonus would apply on both basic and specialised suits of the same race.
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Prius Vecht
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
168
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Posted - 2013.10.24 13:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:This suggestion reminds me of something i talked about for quite some day. Bonuses and shield\armor balancing.
Dual tanking is another example of that issue. You dont have penalties for using shield extenders (there should be though), and you cant use a too big penalty for wearing armor plates or you risk hurting too much specific suits.
So in the end, your best bet is to try and mix both as much as you can. (behold the logis of doom and their multiple slots)
So yeah, i'd support adding a layer to the suits that would reinforce the feeling they are intended to use specific modules and encourage ppl in sticking to that without taking away the possibilities to mix everything a little.
For example, if we had a higher movement penalties for plates and a bonus tied to the Gallente Suits that would reduce that penalty, you could end up with gallente having lower penalties than what we have now and shield warriors being way much carefull on stacking those plates because it would chew their speed away.
With the current skill tree, a solution would be to tie a bonus to the basic frame skill of every suit. That bonus would apply on both basic and specialised suits of the same race.
Dont get that everyone understands the problem with logis having countless slots but CCP....even the CPM knows they need fixing. Whats the holdup CCP? |
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Doc Noah
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
732
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Posted - 2013.10.24 13:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Prius Vecht wrote:Dont get that everyone understands the problem with logis having countless slots but CCP....even the CPM knows they need fixing. Whats the holdup CCP?
Logis are defending themselves saying nothing is wrong and that its normal they can outslay an assault and CCP cant think of a solution that wont drastically change how suits are played. Essentially CCP wants to keep the "classless" system but doesnt want to invoke penalties for playing a specific style. |
Tolen Rosas
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
275
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 13:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Easy Fix - their specialty is no other suit has multiple equip slots anymore which is fair. They dont need a ridiculous amount of high/low slots anymore.
they should have one less of high/low than assault of the same class. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
439
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Posted - 2013.10.24 13:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Fitting penalties are necessary, but I don't think a cpu/pg usage increase will be enough to make certain equipment/modules best for certain classes unless the increase is beyond reasonable.
For example, the cloak. If it is good enough to make scouts viable, then an increase in cpu/pg for non-scouts wouldn't be enough to give scouts an edge while using it. A logi or assault could simple sacrifice some of their tank to equip the cloak and still end up with more eHP than the scout. Granted, they would be easier to find using a scanner than a cloaked scout, but their higher eHP would mean they could more easily fend off the person/squad that detected them or if they get discovered after the cloak enters cooldown.
Instead it would probably be work better if scouts got a significant increase into how long they could stay cloaked over other suits (say 2 or 3 times longer). |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French CRONOS.
1938
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 13:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Prius Vecht wrote:even the CPM knows they need fixing.
Not sure how i should take that
On a more serious note. It's something i, and many others, have said day one we saw uprising. Actually i also mentionned it pre-uprising regarding how the Logi VK1 suit was a better assault than any other assault suit.
Now it's called CK0, has other racial friends, and is better than any other suit as those have become less interesting than they were.
But logis need their slots to be able and use top tier equipments. Real issue is that using logis without equipment but with many buffers gives better result than using the suits made to be actual gunners\tankers\scouts.
So the solution isnt to nerf logis. It's to take them, and every other suit, back into their role. Just using the racial and specialization bonuses would be enough for that.
Bonus HP for heavies. Heavy weapon bonus for each race Bonus to nanite clusters amount for logitistics. Equipment Specific bonuses for every race ( repair gun efficiency, drop uplink spawn speed etc..) Bonus to light weapons\side arm PG\CPU consumption for assaults. Weapon Specific bonuses for each race. Bonus to radar signature (lower) for Scouts. Specific race bonuses tied to black ops activity (knives, hacking time, cloack efficiency when its available, sniper rifle)
Tons of possibility to push slayers out of the logi class while not hurting actual logis. |
Prius Vecht
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
169
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Prius Vecht wrote:even the CPM knows they need fixing. Not sure how i should take that On a more serious note. It's something i, and many others, have said day one we saw uprising. Actually i also mentionned it pre-uprising regarding how the Logi VK1 suit was a better assault than any other assault suit. Now it's called CK0, has other racial friends, and is better than any other suit as those have become less interesting than they were. But logis need their slots to be able and use top tier equipments. Real issue is that using logis without equipment but with many buffers gives better result than using the suits made to be actual gunners\tankers\scouts. So the solution isnt to nerf logis. It's to take them, and every other suit, back into their role. Just using the racial and specialization bonuses would be enough for that. Bonus HP for heavies. Heavy weapon bonus for each race Bonus to nanite clusters amount for logitistics. Equipment Specific bonuses for every race ( repair gun efficiency, drop uplink spawn speed etc..) Bonus to light weapons\side arm PG\CPU consumption for assaults. Weapon Specific bonuses for each race. Bonus to radar signature (lower) for Scouts. Specific race bonuses tied to black ops activity (knives, hacking time, cloack efficiency when its available, sniper rifle) Tons of possibility to push slayers out of the logi class while not hurting actual logis.
Hehe. you're one of the most highly respected people on the forums so no worries.
I've never understood the whole "logis need all those slots" thing. Somebody has to explain to me why a Caldari Logi with 350 CPU and 78PG with 3 highs, 2 lows and 3 equip slots cant do its job. |
Dusters Blog
Galactic News Network
486
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
Prius Vecht wrote: I've never understood the whole "logis need all those slots" thing. Somebody has to explain to me why a Caldari Logi with 350 CPU and 78PG with 3 highs, 2 lows and 3 equip slots cant do its job.
couldnt have said it better. if a logi can explain that to me i'd be satisfied as well.
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Reiki Jubo
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
217
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dusters Blog wrote:Prius Vecht wrote: I've never understood the whole "logis need all those slots" thing. Somebody has to explain to me why a Caldari Logi with 350 CPU and 78PG with 3 highs, 2 lows and 3 equip slots cant do its job. couldnt have said it better. if a logi can explain that to me i'd be satisfied as well.
well...logibros? |
Sgt Kirk
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
2354
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
Prius Vecht wrote: I've never understood the whole "logis need all those slots" thing. Somebody has to explain to me why a Caldari Logi with 350 CPU and 78PG with 3 highs, 2 lows and 3 equip slots cant do its job.
In the future, the far off extremely distant future, we will have eWarfare and team support modules in high/lowslots. I can't wait until they come into play and make the Logi shine.
But this is just me rambling about something that isn't completely on topic with what you're asking.
A man can dream....*sighs* |
Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
2214
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Prius Vecht wrote:Delta 749 wrote:So basically "Waaaaaah the mean assault man is killing me, how dare he choose a class designed to be versatile and not die to my fitting thats designed for a very specific purpose"
Now let the tears flow like whine from guys getting butt hurt at that statement the uprising tac AR was also versatile as it dominated close range and far. its bad design.......i dont fault you taking advantage of it but its hardly operating as intended.
Actually never used the tac rifle that much, I like to keep my fittings cheap so I run standard level gear 98% of the time The other 2% is bringing out the expensive stuff to blow up tanks
Anyway though the SCR is near exactly the same thing but no one complains about it, the heat build up is even based on seconds and not shots fired so the whole ""He shot me 15 times in a second" still happens but for whatever reason people just pretend it doesnt Of course thats not to say the old clip size on the tac wasnt insane |
Kushmir Nadian
Valor Coalition
316
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
Reiki Jubo wrote:Dusters Blog wrote:Prius Vecht wrote: I've never understood the whole "logis need all those slots" thing. Somebody has to explain to me why a Caldari Logi with 350 CPU and 78PG with 3 highs, 2 lows and 3 equip slots cant do its job. couldnt have said it better. if a logi can explain that to me i'd be satisfied as well. well...logibros?
Easy Answer: THEY CAN'T. 350 CPU/78 PG enough to use any equip you want unless of course you're stacking damage mods/shield extenders/armor. Good thing thats not going on or anything.....
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Tolen Rosas
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
277
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
Prius Vecht wrote:I've never understood the whole "logis need all those slots" thing. Somebody has to explain to me why a Caldari Logi with 350 CPU and 78PG with 3 highs, 2 lows and 3 equip slots cant do its job.
crickets? |
Delta 749
Kestrel Reconnaissance
2214
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
Prius Vecht wrote:Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Prius Vecht wrote:even the CPM knows they need fixing. Not sure how i should take that On a more serious note. It's something i, and many others, have said day one we saw uprising. Actually i also mentionned it pre-uprising regarding how the Logi VK1 suit was a better assault than any other assault suit. Now it's called CK0, has other racial friends, and is better than any other suit as those have become less interesting than they were. But logis need their slots to be able and use top tier equipments. Real issue is that using logis without equipment but with many buffers gives better result than using the suits made to be actual gunners\tankers\scouts. So the solution isnt to nerf logis. It's to take them, and every other suit, back into their role. Just using the racial and specialization bonuses would be enough for that. Bonus HP for heavies. Heavy weapon bonus for each race Bonus to nanite clusters amount for logitistics. Equipment Specific bonuses for every race ( repair gun efficiency, drop uplink spawn speed etc..) Bonus to light weapons\side arm PG\CPU consumption for assaults. Weapon Specific bonuses for each race. Bonus to radar signature (lower) for Scouts. Specific race bonuses tied to black ops activity (knives, hacking time, cloack efficiency when its available, sniper rifle) Tons of possibility to push slayers out of the logi class while not hurting actual logis. Hehe. you're one of the most highly respected people on the forums so no worries. I've never understood the whole "logis need all those slots" thing. Somebody has to explain to me why a Caldari Logi with 350 CPU and 78PG with 3 highs, 2 lows and 3 equip slots cant do its job.
Because people would cry that its OP simply because its Caldari |
Tolen Rosas
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
277
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:38:00 -
[23] - Quote
serious answers only please. class doesnt even have to waste a slot on armor repairer. so they actually get to use every low slot.
soooooooooo.............Next! |
The Attorney General
MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN.
1324
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
I am all for promoting specialist roles via the suit or role bonuses.
Right now, two of the logis have bonuses that clearly define a role for them, with Gallente being the designated gear hauler, and the Winmatar being the hacking god.
CCP has said they are trying to figure this out though, so maybe in 2015 we can have some more appropriate bonuses. |
Kam Elto
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
104
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 14:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
The only stacking penalty that would really work is to not allow any stacking at all. Allow only one type of each module on a fit. But in order to do this we would need a wider variety of modules. If not then everyone would basically be running the same fits. |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French CRONOS.
1942
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 15:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
Prius Vecht wrote:
I've never understood the whole "logis need all those slots" thing. Somebody has to explain to me why a Caldari Logi with 350 CPU and 78PG with 3 highs, 2 lows and 3 equip slots cant do its job.
Caldari logi is like an extreme example. The other 3 logistic suit dont have such surprising slot layout. I maintain that to see logi be actual logi, all you need is to boost the gungame of the 3 other type suit. Cf my previous post.
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Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1674
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 15:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
Am I the only one who doesn't have trouble with logis? The logi suit should not be gimped so strongly that assaults are guaranteed a kill -the better player should come out on top in a fair fight between two suits of the same weight class.
What should happen is a buff to the Assault class's spec bonus. an extra 5% per level to regen isn't all that good, if they were to get one that could match the passive hp regen of the logi things would be fine. |
Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
740
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 15:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
one of those threads again... oh look all the credibility of anti logi supporters just went down the toilet, again! who would guess that happens
funny how those anti logi threads are always wrong and with biased opinions, there are plenty of tradeoffs for being a logi. my logi and assault proto fits have the about same EHP. my assault on the other hand has higher strafe speed, more forward speed and more stamina. my amarr logi is almost as slow as a heavy. my logi is also more expensive because it has more slots to fill. that is a fair tradeoff actually.
I repeat it again for all the kids that dont get it: -logi, assault and medium frames have all about the same EHP after fitting modules -assault is, after fitting, cheaper because it has less slots to fill -logi is slower, more expensive to fit in exchange for extra equipment.
it also does not matter how you think logis should be played, deal with it. |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French CRONOS.
1943
|
Posted - 2013.10.24 15:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
Pretty much what i'm saying Talos.
Logi vs Assault are the same weight class. So the difference shouldnt be a huge gap. But they intend to play 2 different roles.
One focuses on extra versatility in support\tactic through the multiple mods and equipment slots. One is supposed to be focused on combat efficiency. problem is, the combat efficiency of the assault compared to logi isnt obvious. especially if you take the caldari variants.
But minor adjustments can fix that without turning logis (focus bonuses) into desperate housewives healing and providing ammo without a chance at killing an enemy. |
Tyjus Vacca
Valor Coalition
45
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Posted - 2013.10.24 15:36:00 -
[30] - Quote
[quote=Talos Alomar]Am I the only one who doesn't have trouble with logis? The logi suit should not be gimped so strongly that assaults are guaranteed a kill -the better player should come out on top in a fair fight between two suits of the same weight class.
apparently u havent seen the active scanner in action. this can still happen but not with the current setup.
logi with 3/2 is fine.
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