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Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
919
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 21:36:00 -
[91] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:CharCharOdell wrote:jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote:CharCharOdell wrote:I read through this, wanting to troll you, really bad, but I actually agree with everything except the madrugar speed nerf. I'm more in favor of either a passive caldari damage buff, because a speed buff is out of character for caldari, and is the place for the minmitar.
All in all, not bad ideas, but buffing the base HP won't do anything good, because it's so low. Buffing the modules is what would help. either that or a massive (35% pg buff).
I want to see tanks become battering rams OR seige weapons, where they are nearly invulnerable for 60 seconds OR they can take out anything that moves in a couple shots for 30 seconds. Then they should go right back to being paper thin. This way, the smart tankers will be nigh unkillable, but a good 85% wont last 2 minutes- as it should be. caldari suits are fastest. less HEAVY armor means more speed and is balanced, currently armor is faster than shield. I hate to bring lore into the equation, but ultimately, this is what will become of tanks (i think) CALDARI = best glass cannons because they have fast enough shield recharge to get hit once, when OHKing something from 500m away, then drop back, charge up in 20 seconds, and shoot again. No other tank can use the railgun the same way a caldari tank can. MINMITAR = Basically the Gunlogi in Chrome. Super fast, lightly defended, and with the ability to stack a good damage mod, while still being able to 'speed tank'; this enables it to run in, kill everything it can in 10 seconds, and run away. It is either the weakest tank, or the tankiest LAV; much like the winmitar assault suit. GALLENTE = Fast armor tankers. Make the best tankers for shock tactics. Able to become nearly invincible for a minute and fight on the front, then run away with exceptional speed and rep back up in the rear. AMARR = Slow omni-tanks. The highest HP of all tanks. Not fast enough to close distance, hit, and run away, but fighting at a medium to long distance, and providing direct fire support; while being able to fend off even gallente tanks, slug it out with caldari in long range engagements, and tank most of the winmitar's damage. However, the loss of speed and poor shield recharge, combined with e necessity to use armor plates, disables this tank from being a good glass cannon, or a powerful offensive tank for more than one engagement. Yea, this. This is basically how the racial HAV's should work. Although, you were (hopefully) exaggerating on that range for the Caldari HAV's...... It's what kept the Gunlogi and Madrugar on even terms in Chrome and we need to return to that.
You also think that ridiculous damage that could 2 shot a very good fitted HAV was a good thing too. 200-300 meters is better, not 500. |
Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
919
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 21:38:00 -
[92] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Cosgar wrote:Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote:Everyone is focusing on whether vehicles need more HP or less, or how much damage and range AV should have. These are all stopgaps.
What we need are completely new features. We need capacitor. We need electronic warfare. Without those vehicle balance is never going to work. It should be easier to disable a tank than outright destroy one. If I see EWAR coming after me, I'm gone. Pretty much works with what Wolfman's direction for tanks: Vulnerable, but not weak.
Which is why I like him. |
Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
921
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 22:01:00 -
[93] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:Vell0cet wrote:Vehicle capacitors! This will reward skilled players by giving them more flexibility than long cool downs, but has the same result that vehicles will have times when their cap is low and they're vulnerable, and other times when they have full cap and are ready to be very nasty. Vehicle prices are probably fine where they are. For tanks, look at the ISK cost of all suits and vehicles killed by tanks, vs the cost of all tanks destroyed. This will give you the ISK-efficiency of tanks and is a reasonable starting place for balancing price if you guys decide to make changes here. If tanks are too squishy, (I"m not convinced they are) focus buffs on the support, and not the tanks themselves. I.e. focus on making remote repping from LLAV's and dropships with a decent range, and gameplay mechanics that make it practical for them to regularly run together as a team. If swarms are a problem, don't nerf swarms, make a turret that can only be mounted on LAV's that will counter swarms (either defender rockets, or maybe a very wide e-war beam that does 0 damage but signals all warheads to detonate prematurely). The focus should be away from the solo tanker in an invulnerable box of destruction, but more of a tool that is incredibly powerful when properly supported by the rest of the squad, but weak when alone. Also CCP, you should do my Quick/Dirty Test Range Implementation Idea. This would help pilots/tankers test fits and strategies against various opponents, so they don't have to do it under fire with lots of real ISK on the line. Edit: Forgot to add that they do need to fix rendering issues for vehicles. It's not fair for vehicles to get blown up by invisible swarms and forge gunners. 1: Like I told the gentleman on the last page, according to what Wolfman has told us so far, caps won't really work for vehicles anymore, so I'd rather not. EWAR that would work like vampires or neuts would just lower active times or raise cooldowns, but full caps, no. 2: Countermeasures are needed for swarms, and to be able to shoot down swarms by any means are needed as well, but making a single weapon the only thing to shoot them down, but suck ass in all other areas is a very bad idea. 3: Swarms have gone from being DS oriented to becoming a insane HAV killer. They need a complete overhaul. 4: It's already about getting support from others. If I see AV, I'll call it out then run, while they do the dirty work (they=my squad). I do covering fire for them to move to another spot, etc. It's already about teamwork and support. Don't make it completely reliant on support to do anything. EDIT: Before I forget, hopefully, SOONtm, we'll get the weapons lab to test our **** before we take it out on the field. Capacitors are a much richer way of balancing module activations. They work phenomenally well in EVE, are easy to understand, and they highlight the cost/benefit nature of fitting. Do I want to sacrifice the HP buffer on my tank to load up on capacitor rechargers so I can permanently run my armor repper? I'm getting hit by incoming AV, should I burn up cap by activating my afterburner and flee? Do I use my repper and shoot the guy? Should I run my scanner, even though it will give me a smaller cap pool if I come under fire? These are choices that a skilled tanker/pilot will make, and the right answer will depend on the person making them and the current tactical situation on the ground. Having e-war affect cooldowns isn't nearly as intuitive, and is much harder to track and manage (you're managing cool-downs on multiple modules simultaneously). If all modules share a single resource, you only have to manage that one resource. Plus the capacitor system is inherently appealing to all EVE players. It's one of the reasons I've not speced into vehicles (a lack of Amarr options is another reason). EDIT: Can you point me to where CCP Wolfman mentioned capacitors? I've searched and couldn't find anything.
Like I just stated, the items in EVE that take up the most cap are
1: active speed boosters
2: repairers
The repairers are becoming a more passive route, to where the armor ones will be active all the time like the infantry ones, while the Shield ones will just jump start the passive shield repair and keep it on until it hits overheat. Therefore, this would only effect the speed tankers, and that wouldn't be fair. So no. And as for your edit, he didn't; he had posted this |
Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
921
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 22:03:00 -
[94] - Quote
Shion Typhon wrote:3) The one downside to a HP model is the easy accessibility to ammo for AV. If you have infinite ammo you can just pour it on until he dies. You need to revamp ammo completely to make it much harder to come by so the AV guy needs to be consider how he uses his ammo in the same way the tanker needs to consider whether to go in hard or hang back.
This probably translates to no AV ammo from nanohives, only from supply depots, or 1 missile/forge load completely consumes a hive so they only get used in emergencies not as endless fuel for AV nests. It also means no unreachable rooftop gunners because they run out of ammo quickly. The general position should be "an equivalently equipped AV user should be able to do X% of a HAVs total HP before needing to back off into reload mode and 2X% before he needs to make his way to a supply depot. A HP+ammo model also allows a n AV user to choose how he spreads his ammo pool's worth of dmg (some damage across a couple of targets vs all dmg on one target).
You could also introduce a small ISK cost so that the cost to buy missiles/forge cartridges is some portion of the ISK it costs a tanker to repair the damage it does (would also discourage forge gunners using shots on infantry) (yes I know this is balancing by ISK but its probably a semi-appropriate area to do it in)
I see above me some people have mentioned capacitors for vehicles but in reality this is simply a risk/problem-transfer rather than a risk-problem solution. Capacitors are simply a proxy for a second binary equation problem where you need to solve the same issue on a second meta-level to the armour itself. IF you solve the problem at a conceptual level with the tanking paradigm you don't need capacitors. Just think about it a bit.
I am aware there are many other issues in vehicle land (passengers, render range etc) which I haven't touched on but you need to get this part right first.
From a pilots perspective, this makes no sense. It's your opinion, and that's fine, but I'd rather not. |
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe
Planetary Response Organisation
430
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 23:00:00 -
[95] - Quote
I had wondered if that was the post you were talking about. Here's the thing. I get that you're describing your outlook in reference to Wolfman's vision for vehicles, but I really don't like Wolfman's vision for vehicles.
The most frustrating thing about vehicles right now is the fight/flee/repair cycle where you fight for 40 seconds then get a little low on health and have to run behind the red line to spend 120 seconds waiting for your reps to cycle twice so you can get your HP back. It's a frustrating way to play for both pilots, who don't want to spend half the match watching the cooldown timer, and AV, who lose out on kills for no better reason than their target being faster than they are.
CCP Wolfman's vision of "long recharge times" sound a lot like it'll just exacerbate this issue. It's the opposite of helpful. Capacitor, on the other hand, could be an equitable way to ameliorate it. |
Washlee
native warlords
293
|
Posted - 2013.09.26 23:04:00 -
[96] - Quote
Tanks could be beefer |
Vell0cet
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
339
|
Posted - 2013.09.27 00:32:00 -
[97] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Like I just stated, the items in EVE that take up the most cap are 1: active speed boosters 2: repairers The repairers are becoming a more passive route, to where the armor ones will be active all the time like the infantry ones, while the Shield ones will just jump start the passive shield repair and keep it on until it hits overheat. Therefore, this would only effect the speed tankers, and that wouldn't be fair. So no. And as for your edit, he didn't; he had posted this I don't see where he mentions capacitors there. It is my hope that they will consider this, as lots of people want them and they wouldn't be reasonably easy to implement (repurpose the existing stamina code), and would provide a much richer gameplay experience. There really isn't a better time to implement capacitors than 1.6 because it is a "back-to-the-basics" approach and capacitors would be absolutely fundamental to any vehicle system that incorporated them. Balancing around capacitors is a much more compelling idea than long cool downs. I've yet to hear any good counterarguments against them. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Public Disorder.
1379
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 03:57:00 -
[98] - Quote
Shion Typhon wrote:3) The one downside to a HP model is the easy accessibility to ammo for AV. If you have infinite ammo you can just pour it on until he dies. You need to revamp ammo completely to make it much harder to come by so the AV guy needs to be consider how he uses his ammo in the same way the tanker needs to consider whether to go in hard or hang back.
This probably translates to no AV ammo from nanohives, only from supply depots, or 1 missile/forge load completely consumes a hive so they only get used in emergencies not as endless fuel for AV nests. It also means no unreachable rooftop gunners because they run out of ammo quickly. The general position should be "an equivalently equipped AV user should be able to do X% of a HAVs total HP before needing to back off into reload mode and 2X% before he needs to make his way to a supply depot. A HP+ammo model also allows a n AV user to choose how he spreads his ammo pool's worth of dmg (some damage across a couple of targets vs all dmg on one target).
You could also introduce a small ISK cost so that the cost to buy missiles/forge cartridges is some portion of the ISK it costs a tanker to repair the damage it does (would also discourage forge gunners using shots on infantry) (yes I know this is balancing by ISK but its probably a semi-appropriate area to do it in)
I see above me some people have mentioned capacitors for vehicles but in reality this is simply a risk/problem-transfer rather than a risk-problem solution. Capacitors are simply a proxy for a second binary equation problem where you need to solve the same issue on a second meta-level to the armour itself. IF you solve the problem at a conceptual level with the tanking paradigm you don't need capacitors. Just think about it a bit.
I am aware there are many other issues in vehicle land (passengers, render range etc) which I haven't touched on but you need to get this part right first. Followed your link from the other thread here, Shion.
Your solution works and is stable, so far as i can see. I have only one concern and that is the cost of repair - you yourself acknowledge this is also a form of ISK-based balancing. For some pilots, the cost of repair will be trivial. I like the damage/repair mechanic but don't see it as a deterrent - wealthy tankers will just keep an spamming tanks.
Thoughts?
I support SP rollover.
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