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Video mock up of one solution to swarms and vehicles.

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Sgt Buttscratch SLAPHAPPY BANDITS 828	Posted - 2013.09.25 12:08:00 - [31] - Quote I like this Idea, it does seem balanced. This would also be a great system to base flare counter measures from. Maybe both systems would need skilling into. LVL 1 lock-on detection - LVL3 missile tracking - LVL 5 counter measures. Your video is also clean and very understandable. Thank you.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 1714	Posted - 2013.09.25 12:12:00 - [32] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: pegasis prime wrote: I like this idea but think it should be a passive skill attached to the vehicle skill tree. Possibly increasing the range and time on radar per level. And perhaps a similar skill for swarmers, or a module that reduces a vehicle's ability to detect them. Well if you read the description on the swarm launcher it dose state that the missiles are designed to combat basic counter mesures vehicles at the moment have no counter mesures. This woukd be the first . So it would already be balanced should it be implemented. that description is a lie and half like more of them. their flight path is easily predictable.
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 1004	Posted - 2013.09.25 12:47:00 - [33] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Remember when all you needed was an afterburner to evade swarms? I spent two game yesterday against two seperate pilots just firing swarms at them to prevent them from killing people over the central combat area. proto swarms max damage mods, 3 salvos at a time, sometimes other people were firign swarms to, his ship never died, but after the first few salvos hope of killing it pretty much died, I just resolved myself to not letting him easily kill my team. it's quite easy to survive swarms with after burners.
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 1277	Posted - 2013.09.25 13:18:00 - [34] - Quote Well presented clever concept, OP. +1 My sole critique is that a "Swarm Solution" implies the existence of a "Swarm Problem" ... correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe Forge Gunners are more threatening to DS pilots (and everyone else) than Swarm Infantry. I seldom succeed in dropping an up-armored bird with Proto Swarms. Tanks are ten-fold easier targets to neutralize. Kindly note that I'm a big fan of DS maneuvers and all things Condor. - Shotty GoBang (Swarm Operation V, Proficiency III)
Judge Rhadamanthus Seraphim Auxiliaries 461	Posted - 2013.09.25 13:32:00 - [35] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: Well presented clever concept, OP. +1 My sole critique is that a "Swarm Solution" implies the existence of a "Swarm Problem" ... correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe Forge Gunners are more threatening to DS pilots (and everyone else) than Swarm Infantry. I thought the exact same system working in a very similar way would work for forges. Just make the colour different. When they charge the reticle goes up; then when they shoot for x seconds after the shot the residual trail from such a big weapon leaves a traceable trail that leads back to the forger. I can always mock it up if people were interested in something to see to make it clear.
Skihids Bullet Cluster 2166	Posted - 2013.09.25 15:22:00 - [36] - Quote Kudos! A very well presented concept. Any fire-and-forget weapon system should use an active guidance system for balance sake, and that should be detectable. I am a fan of active measures like this that allow good pilots avoid fire rather than just sit and tank. I would add my voice to the request for an audio warning for: - Being painted - Being locked on - Missile launch Flying takes a lot of attention and you could miss a purely visual warning system. Maybe make the audio warning configurable in the the options menu. You might share the lock-on reticule with another vehicle or installation and not end up being the current target so you would hear the first and third, but not the second. FGs don't lock on, but they do emit a huge amount of energy when being charged or holding a charge and that could be painted on the radar and overlaid on the visual. I'm thinking one color or pulsing for charging and another for holding a full charge would be nice. For both the SL and FG I would prefer that marker to remain after firing but change to another color to denote that it's now a fixed marker rather than tracking an active signature. That way I would know where the shot came from even if I didn't catch the actual shot as it was taken. It's likely that the shooter is pretty close by his original position and I can use that information for a visual search or as a location to avoid.
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 238	Posted - 2013.09.25 17:03:00 - [37] - Quote The swarm launcher(from a lore standpoint) uses passive locking so there is nothing to detect. A point of origin locater on screen would be fine but no active tracking of the infantry(once rendering is working correctly this shouldn't be an issue). I would like to see an activated module that automatically fires ball bearings in the direction of the swarms once they get into a certain range(not guaranteed to destroy them but a decent chance - maybe 50%). 10 seconds on, 30 seconds off, only one can be equipped at a time. If you're close enough to the swarm infantry the ball bearings have a chance of dealing significant damage to him.
chase rowland The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 17	Posted - 2013.09.25 18:53:00 - [38] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Counted the amount of volleys he took without exploding. A whopping 5 volleys from swarms and the 6th he sponged with the speed of the dropships. Tell me how many swarms would a tank take before blowing up these days? Probably around 5~6 and thats the max. it can take anywhere from 1 to 30. all matters on the conditions. if your mods are off, you can get 1 shotted by a proto swarm if he hits in from behind. ive had it happen to me and ive done it to others. its rare but sometimes they do sneak up on you.
chase rowland The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 17	Posted - 2013.09.25 19:05:00 - [39] - Quote all they need are lai dai grenades and swarms and the brains to hit from behind. pro swarms do about 2k dam. with comp dam mods and prof being a 65% bonus, 20% bonus to armour. thats about 3k. if you hit it from behind thats an automatic 100% addition. so 7840 from a single swarm from behind. packed lai dais do 2k plus 120%. thats 4.5k from a grenade.... 3 of those is 12k dam plus 3 swarms is 18k dam. also tanks usually have 6700 armour and reps only rep 5k armour so even if you do it too slow you got 1 more grenade and 3 swarms. conclusion: i do about 7840 dam with swarms to tanks and about 4500 with my lai dais if i hit em from behind. just hit em when theyre modules are off and you can 1 shot most any tank out there.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 122	Posted - 2013.09.25 19:06:00 - [40] - Quote Well thought out solution and demonstration> +1 for constructive effort, solution and example of how to fix a balance issue. Good work.

Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 445	Posted - 2013.09.25 19:30:00 - [41] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: I like this idea but how would it work if you aren't facing the swarmer? Would there be a warning lock sound? Or would an icon pop up on the side of the screen? I show you my idea on that in the video at 2:17 (link to that time code) Since i am not facing him and he is launching rockets he is marked in green on the radar. But I think anyone shooting rockets should be marked like that even if they are not shooting at me. My ship would be designed to detect missiles but could not tell if they were aimed at me. That way it helps swarmers asif there are two fireing but only one is shooting me i don't know which one it is. This adds teamwork and some defence against being painted by my ship. Ah I did see that but I was wondering because when I'm flying, I'm to busy watching my dropship and doing all these maneuvers and rarely have the chance to look at the map. Perhaps even a warning alarm? Either way, I'm all for keeping my dropship in the air
Judge Rhadamanthus Seraphim Auxiliaries 467	Posted - 2013.09.25 20:00:00 - [42] - Quote GREEN DEATH21 wrote: Yeah, this is a great idea, but I also think with your idea they should maybe add a swarms symbol on your radar, you you know where the hell they are at, I mean our jets today have warning alarms and radars that see missiles, so why dont they have it in the future with blasters and lazers and **** lol! I think that would be OP. We need to keep skill as a pilot in the equation. I should keep battle awareness not just rely on my blinking lights and beeping speakers. I could have added lots of the things suggested in this thread but i chose not to. I'll explain : The green dot on the radar : It is a simple marker. All it tells me is that there are missiles in the air and point out the guy who fired them. Are they fired at me? How strong are they? Exactly where are they in the air relative to me? These are things a skilled pilot and a pilot with a team should know without electronics. I can count the missiles to get some idea of the strength. I should be looking where i am going to know that there are no other targets for swarms in the area so they are likely headed at me. There needs to be risk. Do i turn to check or just run This minimal solution leaves room for skilled pilots AND skilled swarmers. Swarmers need to choose the range they engage at and their target. They can't just hide at maximum range. Start shooting a ADS in the face and it will know where you are. Shoot it in the back and sure, he'll see you on the radar but not nearly as well as the green target lock icon. We need to leave space for skill. This makes it fun. This separates the Aces from the pilots and the swarmers from the Anti-Air Professional.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster 1031	Posted - 2013.09.25 20:24:00 - [43] - Quote I like it, but I think it would have to be mod. Maybe if they add a equipment slot for vehicles it could fit there.
Skihids Bullet Cluster 2168	Posted - 2013.09.25 20:43:00 - [44] - Quote Stile451 wrote: The swarm launcher(from a lore standpoint) uses passive locking so there is nothing to detect. A point of origin locater on screen would be fine but no active tracking of the infantry(once rendering is working correctly this shouldn't be an issue). I would like to see an activated module that automatically fires ball bearings in the direction of the swarms once they get into a certain range(not guaranteed to destroy them but a decent chance - maybe 50%). 10 seconds on, 30 seconds off, only one can be equipped at a time. If you're close enough to the swarm infantry the ball bearings have a chance of dealing significant damage to him. Passive lock fire-and-forget missiles are unbalanced, but assuming that we could at minimum drop a lunch site marker on the radar that would persist for a set time, and missile track on the radar that would also fade over time. I don't see an audio launch warning as OP because you still need to use your judgment as to the best course of action.
Judge Rhadamanthus Seraphim Auxiliaries 467	Posted - 2013.09.25 20:44:00 - [45] - Quote calisk galern wrote: proto swarms max damage mods, 3 salvos at a time, sometimes other people were firign swarms to, his ship never died, but after the first few salvos hope of killing it pretty much died, I just resolved myself to not letting him easily kill my team.. If you want to see what its like to be hit by your AV fit (or close enough to it), thats exactly what hits me at this point. in that video. You can count 6 missiles (easier in the original footage) and I lose 1928 shields. With my innates thats 12% swarm damage from level 4 prof 10% damage mod 10% damage mod fitted to the swarmer Just so you know what it looks like from the other side of the lock on reticle.
Judge Rhadamanthus Seraphim Auxiliaries 467	Posted - 2013.09.25 20:49:00 - [46] - Quote Skihids wrote: ... we could at minimum drop a lunch site marker on the radar. shawarma..! That must be what you get from swarmers right? Someone call the Hulk. (sorry..couldn't resist). But yes a launch marker is fair. I'm not set against sound warnings but i am worried about getting to much data. If we have sound, and radar and a target circle and missile tracking...that seems too much.
HyperionsThunder Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 49	Posted - 2013.09.25 20:59:00 - [47] - Quote As an AV guy, I really like this idea. I think it would also give incentive to use FG over swarms in certain battle situations. Do you think the audible alarms could be effective in letting pilots know that they are being targeted by FG? Since they aren't locking on, they might not get the visual on their HUD/radar, but (and this could be the lore) residual radiation from the FG is detectable when the barrel of the gun is aimed directly at a vehicle. Since the FG blast travels so fast (almost no time to avoid it), I think giving pilots a small heads up would be worth it. I also really like the idea of incorporating a CIWS or special plating for FG defense into the vehicle framework, with the expectation that it would be balanced by making it take up certain slots or be expensive on PG/CPU. I can't imagine that many logi dropships will be effective healers if they are immediately shot out of the sky.
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 1284	Posted - 2013.09.25 21:53:00 - [48] - Quote chase rowland wrote: all they need are lai dai grenades and swarms and the brains to hit from behind. pro swarms do about 2k dam. with comp dam mods and prof being a 65% bonus, 20% bonus to armour. thats about 3k. if you hit it from behind thats an automatic 100% addition. so 7840 from a single swarm from behind. packed lai dais do 2k plus 120%. thats 4.5k from a grenade.... 3 of those is 12k dam plus 3 swarms is 18k dam. also tanks usually have 6700 armour and reps only rep 5k armour so even if you do it too slow you got 1 more grenade and 3 swarms. conclusion: i do about 7840 dam with swarms to tanks and about 4500 with my lai dais if i hit em from behind. just hit em when theyre modules are off and you can 1 shot most any tank out there. Fairly certain this thread is more about Dropships than Tanks. I can see the described targeting system being useful if/when Swarms actually pose threat to Dropship pilots. At the moment, only a Forge Gun can consistently threaten non-militia birds.
Skihids Bullet Cluster 2170	Posted - 2013.09.26 00:51:00 - [49] - Quote HyperionsThunder wrote: As an AV guy, I really like this idea. I think it would also give incentive to use FG over swarms in certain battle situations. Do you think the audible alarms could be effective in letting pilots know that they are being targeted by FG? Since they aren't locking on, they might not get the visual on their HUD/radar, but (and this could be the lore) residual radiation from the FG is detectable when the barrel of the gun is aimed directly at a vehicle. Since the FG blast travels so fast (almost no time to avoid it), I think giving pilots a small heads up would be worth it. I also really like the idea of incorporating a CIWS or special plating for FG defense into the vehicle framework, with the expectation that it would be balanced by making it take up certain slots or be expensive on PG/CPU. I can't imagine that many logi dropships will be effective healers if they are immediately shot out of the sky. There is no lock-on, so no we couldn't be informed that the FG was aiming at us. However we could get a marker on the HUD and view for any charging/charged FG within range. Then it would be up to us to do something with that information. (That would probably be limited to LoS)
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 753	Posted - 2013.09.26 01:08:00 - [50] - Quote First the good. I like the idea for Swarms. It is unclear how much effort that would take from a Software Dev point of view and Lock On Detection had been mentioned in the past. Whether it is on the plate, back burner or in the trash is unknown of course. The other is I don't think that it will work for Forge Guns. They have no lock. Just detecting all Forge Gun Charge Up or those FG that are Currently Charged is unrealistic. Most are not actually aiming at you. I use FG and Drop Ships are only interesting targets once the Tanks have been destroyed, Installations are down and the DS is within or headed to my very limited range. If they are actively targeting or defending a position they escalate as targets quickly. Past that you are invisible at outer quarter of the map. Getting into the map screen will get you kill more often than not so finding your invisible DS is double difficult to someone on the ground. I would prefer simple weapon trails. Just a line showing missile trails (or their aggregate trail) and the same for FG. We used to have that in game. Now we are proposing adding more code to offset what the Draw Distance Cut-Off has caused. I doubt if it will be well received by CCP/Shanghai. Their coding skills have been stressed to the maximum as it is. Past that in my opinion, obviously. I would rather drop the graphic detail and un-break the basic game mechanics. Drop Ships that disappear, tankers that cannot see targets and many other complaints would be eliminated. Although, true be told, we would lose the pretty, pretty grass that is so immersion breaking as it grows while you walk by.

Judge Rhadamanthus Seraphim Auxiliaries 475	Posted - 2013.09.26 20:27:00 - [51] - Quote Youtube analytics tells me the video has no views in singapore.
Pvt Numnutz Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 244	Posted - 2013.09.27 00:58:00 - [52] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: I like it, but I think it would have to be mod. Maybe if they add a equipment slot for vehicles it could fit there. I like the idea of having equipment slots for vehicles, however judges idea is something I hope they might be able to include in 1.6. A lock alarm would be nice, though even if they implimented it as judge showed in the video I would be a very happy pilot.
SgtDoughnut M.E.R.C. Elite League of Infamy 168	Posted - 2013.09.27 01:08:00 - [53] - Quote Its a nice idea, turn it into a modual that you have to equip with some pretty stringent requirements. Also make it where swarms of a higher level have a chance of confusing or negating the ships mod, so you would need proto to be 100% able to identify proto swarm users.
Judge Rhadamanthus Seraphim Auxiliaries 476	Posted - 2013.09.27 11:54:00 - [54] - Quote Due to everyone being so constructive, putting balanced views in a mature and thought out way this idea has made the weekly suggestions thread. Which is pretty cool. CCP clearly read and listen to constructive feedback despite what so many of forum users think.
Oscar Neymar Carbon 7 CRONOS. 54	Posted - 2013.09.27 12:51:00 - [55] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I thought rather than just pointing out issues, I would try to offer a solution. So from a dropship POV, although would be great for tanks too; here is a video where i added graphics to a real fight with a swarmer to show my suggestions to fix the radar and HUD to make it fairer. Not the total solution but part of it. What do you think community and what you you think DEVs? Remember to set it to 720p The Video Would a Black Hawk pilot get a green chuffing dot on the target shooting his helicopter irl ?? even after he has fired and run to relative safety ? Just trying to keep it real
Judge Rhadamanthus Seraphim Auxiliaries 477	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:11:00 - [56] - Quote Oscar Neymar wrote: Would a Black Hawk pilot get a green chuffing dot on the target shooting his helicopter irl ?? even after he has fired and run to relative safety ? Just trying to keep it real No but he can can turn his head to look around so he doesn't have to turn toward the enemy to see if he should be turning away from the enemy. Game mechanics exist to compensate for limitations a 2 Dimensional low resolution environment has and to ensure a game is entertaining.
HyperionsThunder Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 52	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:58:00 - [57] - Quote Oscar Neymar wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I thought rather than just pointing out issues, I would try to offer a solution. So from a dropship POV, although would be great for tanks too; here is a video where i added graphics to a real fight with a swarmer to show my suggestions to fix the radar and HUD to make it fairer. Not the total solution but part of it. What do you think community and what you you think DEVs? Remember to set it to 720p The Video Would a Black Hawk pilot get a green chuffing dot on the target shooting his helicopter irl ?? even after he has fired and run to relative safety ? Just trying to keep it real The blackhawk was also less likely to be deployed into combat from an MCC/War barge that was brought to a distant planet via FTL drives. I liked one of the previous posts regarding higher level tech swarms being able to confuse or evade the detection system. This could also be a weapon mod, equipped in a high slot. I think I'd also like to see some kind of EMP scrambling equipment, so a team could create a concerted effort to shoot down a dropship. For example, a scout could deploy the EMP right as an AV guy locks on, protecting the AV guy and increasing the chances of a successful volley. The EMP wouldn't effect core DS systems, and wouldn't effect repair modules or afterburners, but maybe it would effect drop uplinks in the DS.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 359	Posted - 2013.10.01 00:49:00 - [58] - Quote Green is the wrong color for this. It should be orange. I also think an audible warning when being locked would make sense, and I agree that maybe there should be a skill associated with detecting AV that increases the range at higher skills. Perhaps the AV's damping could counteract this to some degree as well so there is balance. Your videos are excellent btw. I just sent a little ISK in appreciation for your efforts.
Judge Rhadamanthus Seraphim Auxiliaries 503	Posted - 2013.10.01 19:16:00 - [59] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Your videos are excellent btw. I just sent a little ISK in appreciation for your efforts. Thats really kind of you. Thanks.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 486	Posted - 2013.10.01 21:27:00 - [60] - Quote TLDR ... -1 from me for this idea ... unless I can get a big blob on my radar anytime ANYONE points a gun in my direction, before they've even fired a shot. Solve the problem with survivability or evasion, not a 'shoot that guy cos he's my only threat' indicator ! Firstly CCP Logibro seems to have got his links mixed up ... he's talking about 'Swarms Rendering / Tracking' which is an important issue for all vehicle users complaining about 'invisible swarms' and 'swarms doing 180deg turns' ... whereas this thread is talking about dropships being given an additional ability to see who fired, is firing, or hasn't even fired yet ! their swarms. My opinion on this topic is just LOL ... let's start with having vehicles show up on radar, they are 20 times the size of a dropsuit after all, make infinitely more noise, christ I can even see them on the overview map when fully zoomed out, yet radar can't tell me if it's friendly or enemy. Besides that, you want swarms to be permanently lit up with a huge blob on your radar ... sure, when all vehicles show up as a permanent huge blob on swarmers radar and swarms give a bonus to movement speed so they can see vehicles coming for them and flee to the other side of the map in seconds. AT MOST ... all vehicles should get a lock tone at the same time as the lock is established by the swarm launcher. Obviously the tracking and rendering issues need fixing but this has been known and 'being worked on' since Uprising launched if not before (I forget now) ... and ALL vehicles abilities both to sustain and deal damage need to be balanced with the infantry and AV game (which is what 1.5 was going to address) but it's such a delicate thing to balance with so many variables not just in fittings / skills but in proportions of different types of vehicle users and their ability to combat each other AND proportions of infantry who've been forced into specing some form of AV to counter things they have no defence against. I used to enjoy AV, back when it was a specialisation, when HAVs were a challenge and dropships were a threat with their missile launchers and we got wp for damage (I'm talking about E3 build) ... now it's unrewarding, I'm no basement dwelling codboi fps junky, but I'm no bluedot either ... I've specialised swarms n smg since half way through E3 (after I got bored of the 'I win' Surya button, before the Sagaris became popular) yet I can still spend an entire match pushing a good HAV driver back out of the action for it to circle round to the other side of the map repairing and start killing again while I get massacred by infantry running round with ARs and laidais (worst idea in DUSTs history!) ... That's what's taken away the specialisation from AV ... it's bad enough Forges have anti infantry abilities, but you can allow that for the hindrance of being a slow heavy suit, but giving light and medium frames the ability to be effective AV without having to drop a primary anti infantry weapon was a BIG mistake. If you want to make swarm launchers easier targets, offset it with giving them back the blindfire anti infantry ability they used to have in Mordus Private Trials. Either way ... all this discussion is pretty moot since I don't doubt CCP has a plan for vehicles / AV since 1.4 deployed and the countless debates and ideas that came before it ... adding more ideas now will only delay it further ... adding ammo and capacitors, fixing rendering and tracking, adding a lock tone and balancing survivabilities and damage outputs for turrets and AVs with tweeks after deployment and we should see enjoyable gameplay for everyone. It's not much I know ... lets face it, we could all do it on our own, in an afternoon, even on a friday with our left hand, while we solve world hunger and write a symphony with our right hand n watch pigs fly past the window !



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