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Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
1962
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 16:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Order of Suits. with Module Layout
Militia Gallente Light Frame 1 High 1 Low
Scout G - 1 1 High 2 Lows
Scout G/1 Series 2 High <--Problem 2 Lows
Scout g.k0 1 High 4 Lows
Do you see the issue here? Scout G/1 is a completely incompatible direction. It adds a high, when in the pattern suggests a 3rd low slot. This is also an incompatible flavor. It's a gallente suit so the whole is oriented for more Low Slots than High Slots, but this is too balanced, it's like a minmatar but slower and more Armor heavy. There are actually a wider variety of low slots to fit compared to high slots, so adding high slots to the G/1 series isn't adding very much spice at all, especially when 2/3 the scanning modules are low slot oriented and so are armor modules (which the Gallente tank with).
If I wanted a balanced slot configuration I would have headed for the Minmatar scout but many of us Gallente Scouts would prefer it if the G/1 Series was consistent with the pattern and was Low Slot oriented.
Suggestion: 3 Lows 1 High
It's consistent & useful. |
lrian Locust
DUST University Ivy League
128
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 16:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
As a Gallente scout, I'd rather keep the 2nd high slot. It doesn't make sense that I can use 2 damage mods on a medium suit and only one on a proto. |
Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
1963
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 16:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
lrian Locust wrote:As a Gallente scout, I'd rather keep the 2nd high slot. It doesn't make sense that I can use 2 damage mods on a medium suit and only one on a proto. and 1 on standard and militia? The chain is pretty much broken by this suit and the module set up doesn't even really belong (Lore and use wise). Again, if I wanted the Advanced suit to have 2 Highs and 2 lows, I would have gone with the Minmatar Scout, which is the exact same set up at ADV level. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
4257
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 17:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
I agree that I do find it inconsistent with the pattern. Gallente suits really aren't meant to deal maximum damage for a scout class as that is the job for the Minmatar suits in the same class. Gallente Scouts are best used for one of two things.
1. An all-seeing-eye as the extra low slots are suppose to give scouts the ability to fit the most amount of range amplifiers for their passive scanners. The built-in passive scanners of the suits, when fully trained up alongside precision enhancement skill plus the bonus from the suit, can potentially see up to 99 meters through man-made structures (but not through rocks).
2. A stealthy infiltrator as the extra low slots can also accommodate the most amount of profile dampeners for the class thus allowing the scout to evade even the most powerful active/passive scanners in the game.
If you want maximum damage, especially for sidearms and melee, the Minmatar scout is the way to go. But for light weapons, it's best to stick with the other classes. |
Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
1968
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 17:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:I agree that I do find it inconsistent with the pattern. Gallente suits really aren't meant to deal maximum damage for a scout class as that is the job for the Minmatar suits in the same class. Gallente Scouts are best used for one of two things.
1. An all-seeing-eye as the extra low slots are suppose to give scouts the ability to fit the most amount of range amplifiers for their passive scanners. The built-in passive scanners of the suits, when fully trained up alongside precision enhancement skill plus the bonus from the suit, can potentially see up to 99 meters through man-made structures (but not through rocks).
2. A stealthy infiltrator as the extra low slots can also accommodate the most amount of profile dampeners for the class thus allowing the scout to evade even the most powerful active/passive scanners in the game.
If you want maximum damage, especially for sidearms and melee, the Minmatar scout is the way to go. But for light weapons, it's best to stick with the other classes. Pretty much. The Gallente Suit was designed especially for scanning it would seem. The high slot is left open for a Precision enhancer probably (in design, not in practice). This also opens up better armor tanking, to follow Gallente idealism. Basically the G/1 series is barely better than the G -1 because the second high slot really detracts from suit. |
Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
478
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 17:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
I strongly second this. I would really like the ADV Gallente (G/1) suit to be switched to a 1H/3L configuration. I would really help in terms of the natural progressions towards the Proto Gallete scout suit. If I wanted a 2H/2L layout, I would have also gone Minmitar. Now, I get the slot configuration which keeps me from naturally progressing in my low slot focused stealth or passive scanning fits from STD to PRO level.
Sure the 2H/2L has some advantages, but all of the advantages must be given up when moving from ADV -> PRO since the 2nd high slot disappears. 1H/3L would be way a better configuration: it would be more consistent with the progression of the suits, more suited to it's passive bonuses (scan range/stealth) and (to me) more useful.
CCP - please consider adjusting this at some point in the future.
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1504
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 19:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
I wish they would fix this but they said recently it's like this by design, so I can't see them doing it. I said it in the scout thread earlier, that I love having 2 slots for damage mods but with the lack of CPU I have to use a CPU mod and effectively am left with just 1 low slot. Make it 2 lo 3 hi and proto 2 hi 4 lo and it works great for all concerned. Either that or give me at least enough CPU to not need a CPU mod and lvl 5 electronics.
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Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
1971
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 21:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:I wish they would fix this but they said recently it's like this by design, so I can't see them doing it. I said it in the scout thread earlier, that I love having 2 slots for damage mods but with the lack of CPU I have to use a CPU mod and effectively am left with just 1 low slot. Make it 2 lo 3 hi and proto 2 hi 4 lo and it works great for all concerned. Either that or give me at least enough CPU to not need a CPU mod and lvl 5 electronics. Yeah it is by design, but it is terrible design. Why would the scout suits have identical module layout except at Militia and Prototype?
I recall that the Amarr Logistics used to only receive a sidearm at Prototype, but CCP changed it short afterward, allowing the Sidearm for the Amarr Logi at Standard level to "so the role gets its defining characteristic from the start". Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1093728#post1093728
Why can't CCP do the same thing for scouts? Give the gallente scout 3rd low slot "so the role gets its defining characteristic" |
voidfaction
Void of Faction
83
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 21:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Order of Suits. with Module Layout
Militia Gallente Light Frame 1 High 1 Low
Scout G - 1 1 High 2 Lows
Scout G/1 Series 2 High <--Problem 2 Lows
Scout g.k0 1 High 4 Lows
Do you see the issue here? Scout G/1 is a completely incompatible direction. It adds a high, when the pattern suggests a 3rd low slot. This is also an incompatible flavor. It's a gallente suit so the whole is oriented for more Low Slots than High Slots, but this is too balanced, it's like a minmatar but slower and more Armor heavy. There are actually a wider variety of low slots to fit compared to high slots, so adding high slots to the G/1 series isn't adding very much spice at all, especially when 2/3 the scanning modules are low slot oriented and so are armor modules (which the Gallente tank with).
If I wanted a balanced slot configuration I would have headed for the Minmatar scout but many of us Gallente Scouts would prefer it if the G/1 Series was consistent with the pattern and was Low Slot oriented.
Suggestion: 3 Lows 1 High
It's consistent & useful.
I would have to say i would also like it if they made the G/1 have 3 low but thinking the reason cpp did it the way they did is for one really good reason.
If the G/1 had 3 low slots then an advanced suit could be invisible to proto level scanners. only a proto suit or proto scanner would be able to be used to detect an advanced suit. that would not be balanced.
|
Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
1971
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 21:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
voidfaction wrote: I would have to say i would also like it if they made the G/1 have 3 low but thinking the reason cpp did it the way they did is for one really good reason.
If the G/1 had 3 low slots then an advanced suit could be invisible to proto level scanners. only a proto suit or proto scanner would be able to be used to detect an advanced suit. that would not be balanced.
If this game was about being fair Forge Guns would not register on infantry. I can see how that does stop the 3L/1H, but ......it seems like a stretch of an excuse. One piece of equipment is holding back the G/1 series? |
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Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
480
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 23:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
I don't think that is a very good reason either.... afterall, this only holds true for folks not skilled all the way up in Gallente scout dropsuits and profile dampening. I can defeat all proto scanners except for one with a Dragonfly and militia profile dampener. Albeit, I have L5 scout skills and L5 profile dampening.... so, I guess I could do it with a militia suit as well..... the ADV suit itself doesn't really have much to do with it.
Although this feature is by design, I think it's a design that just doesn't make much sense and a valid candidate for adjustment. |
voidfaction
Void of Faction
83
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 00:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:voidfaction wrote: I would have to say i would also like it if they made the G/1 have 3 low but thinking the reason cpp did it the way they did is for one really good reason.
If the G/1 had 3 low slots then an advanced suit could be invisible to proto level scanners. only a proto suit or proto scanner would be able to be used to detect an advanced suit. that would not be balanced.
If this game was about being fair Forge Guns would not register on infantry. I can see how that does stop the 3L/1H, but ......it seems like a stretch of an excuse. One piece of equipment is holding back the G/1 series?
So it would be fair to have a adv suit that can hide from all passive and active scanners in game? was wrong before an adv suit would be able to hide from even a proto suit or proto scanner. As is it takes a proto suit or the 1 proto scanner to detect a g/1 scout now if using 2 complex dampeners.
1 proto scanner at 15 a proto logi ck.0 with 5 complex precision 13.27 g/1 series scout with 3 complex dampeners 12.81
add in cloak or adaptive camouflage and an advanced scout with 3 lows could be invisible to everything.
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Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
974
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 00:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
I foresee removing a module from a Suit, to be a big no-no, as it will break a lot of fits.
Why not add another high to the Proto scout? |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
4266
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 00:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:I foresee removing a module from a Suit, to be a big no-no, as it will break a lot of fits.
That's not a problem. More than likely CCP will just remove the extra module for you by default using a simple algorithm. CCP has done this before countless times with the Eve Online ships and those are much more complex than what you see right now in your suit. |
Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
1978
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 02:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:I foresee removing a module from a Suit, to be a big no-no, as it will break a lot of fits.
Why not add another high to the Proto scout? CCP nerfed Callogi CPU
The point is that the G/1 is too alien, it breaks the sequence and flavor of gallente scouts. On top of that, it makes the shift from ADV to Proto all too messed up. You are gaining 2 low slots and losing a high. That's just weird. It would be better if you never lost anything and gained modules in a chronological order. The minmatar scouts don't have this problem, their suits move in a logical orderly fashion.
Also, I don't care if it breaks my fits. |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
975
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 03:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:I foresee removing a module from a Suit, to be a big no-no, as it will break a lot of fits.
Why not add another high to the Proto scout? CCP nerfed Callogi CPU The point is that the G/1 is too alien, it breaks the sequence and flavor of gallente scouts. On top of that, it makes the shift from ADV to Proto all too messed up. You are gaining 2 low slots and losing a high. That's just weird. It would be better if you never lost anything and gained modules in a chronological order. The minmatar scouts don't have this problem, their suits move in a logical orderly fashion. Also, I don't care if it breaks my fits. Hmm.
I see.
Then, since Im not a Scout, do it.
I the scouts think its good, then do it.
Just my 2 hay pennies. |
Vargralor
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 03:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
+1
I raised the post in the Technical Support forum to see if it was just a bug, hoping that we could get them to change it. When they posted that it was by design I sorta gave up on it in despair.
The suits would make so much more sense to have this progression and there are literally dozens of different fitouts I would run with three low slots available. At the moment I stick to the basic suit and jump up to proto occasionally when I think the increased cost is justified. With three low slots I would live in the advanced suit day and night. |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
196
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 09:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:I agree that I do find it inconsistent with the pattern. Gallente suits really aren't meant to deal maximum damage for a scout class as that is the job for the Minmatar suits in the same class. Gallente Scouts are best used for one of two things.
1. An all-seeing-eye as the extra low slots are suppose to give scouts the ability to fit the most amount of range amplifiers for their passive scanners. The built-in passive scanners of the suits, when fully trained up alongside precision enhancement skill plus the bonus from the suit, can potentially see up to 99 meters through man-made structures (but not through rocks).
2. A stealthy infiltrator as the extra low slots can also accommodate the most amount of profile dampeners for the class thus allowing the scout to evade even the most powerful active/passive scanners in the game.
If you want maximum damage, especially for sidearms and melee, the Minmatar scout is the way to go. But for light weapons, it's best to stick with the other classes. Pretty much. The Gallente Suit was designed especially for scanning it would seem. The high slot is left open for a Precision enhancer probably (in design, not in practice). This also opens up better armor tanking, to follow Gallente idealism. Basically the G/1 series is barely better than the G -1 because the second high slot really detracts from suit.
Hmm maybe this was the original intention for the gall scout, but CCP removes this role nearly completely with 1.4. The removal of Teamview destroyed th scout role of the gal scout.
On a sidenote any suit is a better scout just by using an active scanner, and those who use tha sctive scanners will a) light up the enemies for the team and b) with 1.5 they will get WP for scanning. You get all of this for 932760 SP and one piece of equipment.
The Gal scout would need 4352880 SP in Skills an 4 Complexx Range Amplifiers and one Precision Enhancer and still with all this SP investment and equipment the gal scout is only able to barely beat and advanced scanner, there is no way the gal scout can beat the Protoscanner.
Thats quite an investment to be barely better than an Advanced scanner whithout the option to get WP for scanning and the ability to light up people for your team.
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Niuvo
The Phoenix Federation
530
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 10:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
If we truly want to be a menace. We should opt for a 1H 5L layout lol Why not? |
Niuvo
The Phoenix Federation
530
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 10:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:I agree that I do find it inconsistent with the pattern. Gallente suits really aren't meant to deal maximum damage for a scout class as that is the job for the Minmatar suits in the same class. Gallente Scouts are best used for one of two things.
1. An all-seeing-eye as the extra low slots are suppose to give scouts the ability to fit the most amount of range amplifiers for their passive scanners. The built-in passive scanners of the suits, when fully trained up alongside precision enhancement skill plus the bonus from the suit, can potentially see up to 99 meters through man-made structures (but not through rocks).
2. A stealthy infiltrator as the extra low slots can also accommodate the most amount of profile dampeners for the class thus allowing the scout to evade even the most powerful active/passive scanners in the game.
If you want maximum damage, especially for sidearms and melee, the Minmatar scout is the way to go. But for light weapons, it's best to stick with the other classes. Pretty much. The Gallente Suit was designed especially for scanning it would seem. The high slot is left open for a Precision enhancer probably (in design, not in practice). This also opens up better armor tanking, to follow Gallente idealism. Basically the G/1 series is barely better than the G -1 because the second high slot really detracts from suit. Hmm maybe this was the original intention for the gall scout, but CCP removes this role nearly completely with 1.4. The removal of Teamview destroyed th scout role of the gal scout. On a sidenote any suit is a better scout just by using an active scanner, and those who use tha sctive scanners will a) light up the enemies for the team and b) with 1.5 they will get WP for scanning. You get all of this for 932760 SP and one piece of equipment. The Gal scout would need 4352880 SP in Skills an 4 Complexx Range Amplifiers and one Precision Enhancer and still with all this SP investment and equipment the gal scout is only able to barely beat and advanced scanner, there is no way the gal scout can beat the Protoscanner. Thats quite an investment to be barely better than an Advanced scanner whithout the option to get WP for scanning and the ability to light up people for your team. Of course this is would be only a therotical build thats pretty much useless on the battlefield. The same is true for stealth in theory the gal scout can beat any scanner in profile dampening but the suit that can do this can't take any real advantage as you sacrifice nearly all of your low slots and lots of CPU. There is not much room to fit anything useful beside your stealth specialisation... Damn, where is the future of the gal scout? |
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Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
1987
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 15:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:
1 proto scanner at 15 a proto logi ck.0 with 5 complex precision 13.27 g/1 series scout with 3 complex dampeners 12.81
add in cloak or adaptive camouflage and an advanced scout with 3 lows could be invisible to everything.
Can you verify that Precision Enhancers apply to Active Scanners |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
279
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 15:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:voidfaction wrote:
1 proto scanner at 15 a proto logi ck.0 with 5 complex precision 13.27 g/1 series scout with 3 complex dampeners 12.81
add in cloak or adaptive camouflage and an advanced scout with 3 lows could be invisible to everything.
Can you verify that Precision Enhancers apply to Active Scanners
I think that was referring to passive scan, not active. If precision enhancers affected scanners, I'm pretty sure 5 complex precision enhancers would get a 15db scanner quite a bit lower than 13.27. |
Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
1987
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 15:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:voidfaction wrote:
1 proto scanner at 15 a proto logi ck.0 with 5 complex precision 13.27 g/1 series scout with 3 complex dampeners 12.81
add in cloak or adaptive camouflage and an advanced scout with 3 lows could be invisible to everything.
Can you verify that Precision Enhancers apply to Active Scanners I think that was referring to passive scan, not active. If precision enhancers affected scanners, I'm pretty sure 5 complex precision enhancers would get a 15db scanner quite a bit lower than 13.27. Oh yeah huh |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1509
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 19:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
I've been pushing for the g/1 to be 2 hi 3 lo and the proto to be 2 hi 4 lo. Maybe make the std 2/2 so it's less of a leap from std > adv. And accompanying lots more CPU/PG so we can actually fit our slots.
Then give the minnies an extra slot at each level too. This would bring us more in line with other suit types but we'd still have **** poor base hp balancing us back down. |
Dominus Fatali
Nox Aeterna Security
218
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 20:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
I am in favor of fixing this irregularity by either the 1H/3L Advanced or 2H/4L Prototype. Preferably the latter. |
Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
485
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 04:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
I wouldn't mind going with a 2H/4L for Gallente proto, provided that the Minmitar suit also got an additional slot added to it. I would still favor a 1H/3L for the ADV suit, since they proto suits would provide a nice bump and really be special and justify their additional cost over the advanced suits.
I'm not sure why scouts only get 5 H/L slots in total while Assaults get 7. Scouts no longer have a passive scan range bonus like they did in Chromosome, the speed bonus is negligible and as it turns out, not useful give the lagging hitbox, better hit detection and auto-aim.
So - what 'benefits' do we have over medium suits to justify being docked 2 slots relative to their suits? I think we should have 6, and still a small buff to scan range and speed.
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Niuvo
The Phoenix Federation
536
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 04:49:00 -
[27] - Quote
Matticus Monk wrote:I wouldn't mind going with a 2H/4L for Gallente proto, provided that the Minmitar suit also got an additional slot added to it. I would still favor a 1H/3L for the ADV suit, since they proto suits would provide a nice bump and really be special and justify their additional cost over the advanced suits.
I'm not sure why scouts only get 5 H/L slots in total while Assaults get 7. Scouts no longer have a passive scan range bonus like they did in Chromosome, the speed bonus is negligible and as it turns out, not useful give the lagging hitbox, better hit detection and auto-aim.
So - what 'benefits' do we have over medium suits to justify being docked 2 slots relative to their suits? I think we should have 6, and still a small buff to scan range and speed.
As a gal proto, I do not want another high mod, what are you gonna do with that? It's all about the low slots. That's where the scout mods are at. Damn it CCP HERE US OUT. We are in the pits. |
Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
486
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 05:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
Niuvo wrote: As a gal proto, I do not want another high mod, what are you gonna do with that? It's all about the low slots. That's where the scout mods are at. Damn it CCP HERE US OUT. We are in the pits.
Yeah, 1H/3L for ADV, and 1H/5L for Pro.....? That would be sweet. I'd rock the range, stealth, armor, reps and kin/cat for the win.... |
Dominus Fatali
Nox Aeterna Security
221
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 16:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
Niuvo wrote:Matticus Monk wrote:I wouldn't mind going with a 2H/4L for Gallente proto, provided that the Minmitar suit also got an additional slot added to it. I would still favor a 1H/3L for the ADV suit, since they proto suits would provide a nice bump and really be special and justify their additional cost over the advanced suits.
I'm not sure why scouts only get 5 H/L slots in total while Assaults get 7. Scouts no longer have a passive scan range bonus like they did in Chromosome, the speed bonus is negligible and as it turns out, not useful give the lagging hitbox, better hit detection and auto-aim.
So - what 'benefits' do we have over medium suits to justify being docked 2 slots relative to their suits? I think we should have 6, and still a small buff to scan range and speed.
As a gal proto, I do not want another high mod, what are you gonna do with that? It's all about the low slots. That's where the scout mods are at. Damn it CCP HERE US OUT. We are in the pits. Shield, I know, blasphemy. I prefer the extra health with no speed drawback. Lets me save my low slots for the fiun stuff, as opposed to Ferroscale Plates. |
Bojo The Mighty
Zanzibar Concept
2014
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 16:46:00 -
[30] - Quote
Dominus Fatali wrote: Shield, I know, blasphemy. I prefer the extra health with no speed drawback. Lets me save my low slots for the fiun stuff, as opposed to Ferroscale Plates. Or Precision Enhancer, make Gallente Scouts masters of E-War (Soon tm).
But the suits are so not built for shield extenders. I can tell because my CPU/PG goes in the hole. |
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