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Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
202
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Posted - 2013.09.19 17:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't like the idea of having a single piece of equipment that can passively make another class of equipment useless within a certain radius. Do we have droppables that can make nanite injectors or repair tools not work? Why should a scanner be rendered useless or debilitated in scanning the majority of the enemy team just because one person on the other side skilled into a single piece of equipment?
This also applies to ECM interference with DUs and nanohives: the only thing that should remove them from play is physical destruction. Equipment that nullifies them passively only by being dropped is too OP. Think of it this way - if you see a tank on the field, you counter it with AV, forges, swarms, other tanks, whatever. You need to actively try to get rid of it to prevent it from aiding the enemy, just like you need to actively destroy nanohives/uplinks. There is no option to emit an EMP that disables said tank from operating.
To gain the ability to evade scanning, you need to skill into a module and sacrifice slots to fit them. It would be OP to lend this ability to everyone, at no cost to them.
The closest thing that might mimic this is triage nanohives, as they take the place of armor repair modules, but even those are very limited - they only heal a given amount of HP per cycle and eventually pop, they are contained within a specific, small radius, and emit a large, visible signature both on the minimap and in the game environment. If these scramblers had similar attributes, they'd most likely be useless.
So no, scrambler devices are not necessary. If you want to evade scans, skill into profile dampeners or use scout suits. |
Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
203
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Posted - 2013.09.19 23:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
1) If your scrambler is deployable, then it's automatically not an "active" piece of equipment. A nanohive or drop uplinks are not "active" pieces of equipment just because they take up a slot; in my definition, a piece of equipment is "active" when it must be equipped in order to be used - repair tools, nanite injectors, active scanners.
2) Active scanners and your proposed scramblers are not equitable. Scanning intel only aids you and your squad, has a limited range, is directional, and must constantly be refreshed. Further, because the scanner is active, it means that in order to use it you must switch to it and hence don't have your gun out. Your scrambler seems to be a deployable piece of equipment that affects everyone in its radius, not only your squadmates. If your scrambler had to be equipped like the scanner, was directional or very limited in radius, and only worked for a short period, say 10-30 seconds before it needed to be refreshed, then you might have an argument and it might not be OP. It seems to me that this isn't what you're going for.
From my interpretation of your proposal, you could simply put multiple scramblers on rooftops or hard to get areas and hide your entire team from scanning detection so long as they stayed within the scrambler's overlapping range. Hence its OP.
Not all suits need to be invisible from scans. If we're talking proto scanners, heavy suits can't dodge them no matter how many dampeners they stack. But last time I checked, heavy suits don't register on scanners with a minimap signature more pronounced than any other suit, so if you see a scanned target around the corner it could very well be a fatty with dampened friends to ambush you.
In the end, it all comes down to what you think is worthwhile to sacrifice on your suit in order to gain an ability. I know how powerful scanners are so I invested in profile dampeners despite having to give up armor plates or shield regulators to use them.
Think of it another way. As I said, triage nanohives can more or less replace your armor repairers, right? Imagine then if the triage hive had a 50-100m radius, didn't need LOS to heal you, and would constantly heal you without popping until it was destroyed. Sounds OP, doesn't it? It's pretty much what you're asking your scrambler to do.
I also don't agree with your notion that equipment must battle equipment. We don't have devices that nullify nanite injectors or repair tools, or drop uplinks and nanohives. If we did, people would just skill into that stuff and equipment use would drop, or one side wouldn't have it and would hence be destroyed, etc. It really just leads to stale gameplay. |
Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
204
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Posted - 2013.09.20 02:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hmm, seems like my interpretation of how this would work differs from yours. So please explain the best way to design this device and we will go from there.
Info like duration, radius (magnitude and whether spherical like nanohives or linear like scanners), how the dampening works (i.e. deducting a specific dB number or percentage from the scan profiles of anyone in its radius) etc. Does it work on equipment? Or only infantry? What about vehicles? If they overlap is the effect increased by that much? Will the device itself show up on scans?
The reason I like the scanner and dampeners as they are now is because everyone uses scanners nowadays, and therefore dampening can lend a huge tactical advantage seeing as so many rely on scanning results to be accurate. But you are forced to sacrifice modules on their suit to use dampeners, as it should be.
There is one technical aspect I would like to point out. I don't think heavies could be dampened at all using your system. The reason is this - to evade the advanced A-45 Quantum Scanner, you need to have a scan profile of under 36dB. Heavies start at 65dB. You seem to want the scramblers to be able to hide them without any additional dampening from their end, so that means either a magnitude reduction of 29dB or a percentage reduction of 45%. This means that any medium frame also benefiting from such a scrambler would be able to evade all proto scanners except the Duvolle Focused (15dB), which is an advantage that you don't seem to agree with. |
Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 12:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Your version of the jammer is clearly overpowered. How can it not be, with a 20-40m linear radius (and unlimited vertical range), an infinite use unless physically destroyed, the ability to penetrate obstacles (no need for line of sight), and effecting the entire team (thereby nullifying an entire category of enemy equipment as well as friendly modules)? And proto jammers defeat proto scanners (28dB) for all medium/light suits, really? So the only way to counter a proto jammer is to equip the Duvolle Focused Scanner - a piece of equipment with the third highest PG requirement of anything in the game, and limited usefulness as a scanner itself?
Ideas like this look good on paper, but can't be implemented well without either being too weak or too OP. Again, you're essentially replacing low slots with an area of effect deployable, so the comparison to triage nanohives is justifiable. If triage hives had a nerfed repair - say 10 HP/sec, but had a 20-40m radius and could penetrate cover, you don't think these would be abused to hell because they were OP?
Are we really better served by equipment that makes radar useless? This should be the question you ask yourself. You are designing the next flavor of the month, and if implemented everyone will start using these. Do we get better, more exciting games if we know where most people are (give or take 1-2 people who can defeat scans), or if we don't know where anyone is (give or take 1-2 people who are idiots out in the open)?
Crappy intel makes for crappy games in my opinion. Active scanners have only become widely used because CCP decided to disable shared squad/team vision, which at least gave you a general direction of where most enemies were. Pre-1.4, this was enough to lead to a good engagement. Post-1.4, you have no idea where enemies are unless you either scan or have LOS on them yourself. If you don't, the best you can do is extrapolate from your blueberries on the Tacnet - what direction they are facing, whether you see gunfire, etc.
Give us a way to defeat the intel provided by scanners and we are back in the dark ages.
This jammer, by the way, isn't an equitable counter to active scanners simply because it is a deployable, "set it and forget it" item. Again, active scanners only benefit you and your squad, and must be constantly carried and used actively in order to give continuous intel. A passive droppable that defeated all but the Duvolle Focused Scanner would simply be spammed on rooftops, and would hide anyone under its umbrella. Nothing else in the game works that way. And getting WP for this? Really? I don't think active scanners need WP rewards, but at least the rewards they are applying are supposedly linked to kills, being a scan kill assist type system. Giving WP just because you allowed your allies to evade scans (scans being unlimited) results in an unlimited source of WP.
A less overpowered alternative would be to make jammers work like handheld scanners, or like triage nanohives. The handheld version of the jammer could be used immediately after being scanned; doing so wipes the highlight time of yourself and nearby friendlies within a certain radius. You will still momentarily show up on the enemy radar but assuming you are quick, your signature dies shortly afterward. Since scanners have a cool down time, this item should also have a cool down, but it still works in denying constant intel to the enemy. If implemented like triage hives, the jammer would have a very short radius and necessitate LOS; it would expend nanite clusters to reduce your scan profile by a certain number of dB per cycle up to a threshold (say, just under the active scanner of equitable level). You can either run to these to wipe your scan signature or sit in one of these and avoid scans entirely. Each scan resets your scan profile, meaning that every time you are scanned, more nanite clusters are eaten by the hive, and eventually it pops. If no one is using it then it doesn't consume nanite clusters even when the area is scanned.
Rest assured, if something like your version of the jammer does ever get implemented, I will be one of the first skilling them to proto and abusing the crap out of them. I love my droppables and yours would be an OP droppable to the extreme.
TL;DR - read the first word of every paragraph. |
Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 14:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
We have a direct counter to the active scanner. They are called profile dampeners. I use them, as do others - not only scouts. Maybe you should try using them yourself. If you are a heavy, sorry, you DON'T GET TO EVADE SCANS. Heavies are not supposed to be "ambush" fighters who rely on stealth - else they wouldn't have such a high scanning profile in the first place.
Anyway, not gonna waste any more time making arguments over why your hypothetical piece of equipment is a bad idea. Clearly you're not going to be convinced this is OP unless it is implemented and abused. And I said, if CCP decides to add something like this, I will be the first to abuse the hell out of it.
Until then enjoy getting scanned, or skill into dampeners. |
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