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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3879
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 16:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Beyobi wrote:No more respecs. I had to plan and live with my decisions, so should everyone else. Stop crying about your inability to read skill descriptions and weapon attributes. You made your choice, deal with it. I repeat, YOU made YOUR choice, DEAL WITH IT.
In terms of FULL respecs, you are correct. There will be no more FULL respecs. But don't ignore the fact that the door is still open for the possibility of a PARTIAL reimbursement of skill points invested in skill books that are being affected. In this case, weapon reload skills are getting a reduction in their multiplier and therefore we will be refunded the DIFFERENCE.
Understand me? |
Beyobi
Soldiers Of One Network Orion Empire
113
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
Refunding is not respecing. 1 skill adjustment, such as the one we got for dropsuits, is not a problem. Allowing huge skill reallocation across multiple skills is a problem. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3882
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:06:00 -
[33] - Quote
Beyobi wrote:Refunding is not respecing. 1 skill adjustment, such as the one we got for dropsuits, is not a problem. Allowing huge skill reallocation across multiple skills is a problem.
It's not a problem at all. CCP has done this countless times before in Eve Online and we all know how huge that game's skill tree really is at this point. If CCP can handle Eve's skill tree and still be able to give partial refunds using an algorithm, then Dust's skill tree won't be a problem if done the same way. |
Beyobi
Soldiers Of One Network Orion Empire
113
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
With this tiny community, if everyone keeps getting respects there will be little diversity in gameplay. Do you really want everyone using the same weapons every time something changes? Bandwagon gaming is not fun or strategic. I've had my gear buffed and nerfed. I deal with it. I adapt and change through good use of my skill allocation as any other decent gamer should. If you misappropriated your skills, let's say into Amarr Heavy, knowing full well that in time the Gallente Heavy would be released, you failed, not CCP. Save your points or spend them on core upgrades. Inpatients is no excuse. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3882
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:27:00 -
[35] - Quote
Beyobi wrote:With this tiny community, if everyone keeps getting respects there will be little diversity in gameplay. Do you really want everyone using the same weapons every time something changes? Bandwagon gaming is not fun or strategic. I've had my gear buffed and nerfed. I deal with it. I adapt and change through good use of my skill allocation as any other decent gamer should. If you misappropriated your skills, let's say into Amarr Heavy, knowing full well that in time the Gallente Heavy would be released, you failed, not CCP. Save your points or spend them on core upgrades. Inpatients is no excuse.
But you're talking about whenever CCP adds a new item or new skill such a Gallente Heavy. I'm talking about little things such as adjustment to skill point requirements of a book, or even removing a skill book altogether.
By the way, I'm also an anti-respec person if you haven't known me enough. There are only very few exceptions I make when it comes to refunding SP such as when CCP screwed up royally with the tank skills back in May. One vehicle skill said it gives bonus to CPU or PG output of a vehicle but in reality it only gave bonus reduction in CPU/PG usage of modules. If I remember correctly, the problem didn't stop there and therefore CCP was forced to give one extra FULL respec.
Again, when it comes to adding new items to the market along with new skills, I don't support respecs. |
Tek Hound
Death In Xcess Corporation
47
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:53:00 -
[36] - Quote
No real reason not to have a respec Option. Your player base is small as it is.why do you want more people to leave?No respec option equal bordem. |
Nguruthos IX
Vagina Bombers
1295
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:And you're right if they do reissue points back because of new gear its going to be partial only.
For example It would not surprise me at all if they refund all vehicle SP in 1.5 Especially since as part of their work they will probably be having to rework some of the skills, in addition to a complete rework of the mechanics and roles of each vehicle. And either one alone would warrant a reallocation |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3887
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:10:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tek Hound wrote:No real reason not to have a respec Option. Your player base is small as it is.why do you want more people to leave?No respec option equal bordem.
The same was said for Eve Online and back then Eve didn't have much of a player base at all. In fact, 10,000 players at any given hour was considered a record for CCP back then. They only had one respec given since their own launch and that was it. To this day, there are still a few Eve players asking for respecs after ten years of no respecs. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1375
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:28:00 -
[39] - Quote
I have always been a no respecs person but I am open to calls for partial refunds when racial variants are released - but not entirely new weapons/gear/suits. For example, when the amarr scout comes out, all people with SP invested into the light dropsuit tree get the option to transfer that SP into the Amarr scout tree instead of the minmatar/gallente scout. You should not get an option to move that SP completely away from scout suits.
One other SP refund policy I agree with is when skills/items are completely overhauled, like in the case of vehicles in 1.5 - that should come with a full and free refund of all associated skills in vehicles but dropsuit, weapon and equipment SP should be left as is. |
Hecarim Van Hohen
Bullet Cluster
159
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:40:00 -
[40] - Quote
I'd imagine that when each race has all of it's suits/vehicles CCP will look into refunding the SP spent on those skills.
I've spent my SP on the stuff I wanted, Amarr logi and heavy, I really wanted the Crusader suit and the Amarr heavy weapon but I'm cool with the choices I made :)
Once again, partial refunds are, in my opinion, in the horizon and I'd like to see them happen so people who specced into Gallente DS to get some flight experience could then spend their SP on the shiny (lol) Minmatarr DS and the same goes for HAV's and LAV's and even LLAV's.
This is a nice thread, let's keep it that way :3 |
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Ryme Intrinseca
Seraphim Auxiliaries
9
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Posted - 2013.09.02 19:50:00 -
[41] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:I have always been a no respecs person but I am open to calls for partial refunds when racial variants are released - but not entirely new weapons/gear/suits. I agree. Otherwise scouts, heavies, and pilots are getting punished relative to assaults and logis, who had the full choice from day 1.
Quote:For example, when the amarr scout comes out, all people with SP invested into the light dropsuit tree get the option to transfer that SP into the Amarr scout tree instead of the minmatar/gallente scout. You should not get an option to move that SP completely away from scout suits. I like this idea in theory, but in practice it would be too complicated to apply. CCP would have to code a new category of 'SP that can only be used for certain skills', and convert a portion of spent SP on some characters into this new currency. There is a very high probability that something would go wrong. As far as I know ordinary SP refunds have always gone smoothly, so that's what they should do. In practice this will achieve much the same objective. For instance, someone getting refunded for their SP in Amarr heavy frames is almost certainly going to spend that SP on other heavy frames, as otherwise their millions of SP in heavy weapons, etc is wasted.
Quote:One other SP refund policy I agree with is when skills/items are completely overhauled, like in the case of vehicles in 1.5 - that should come with a full and free refund of all associated skills in vehicles but dropsuit, weapon and equipment SP should be left as is. Don't agree with this. If people knew they could get back the SP they put into the FOTM once it's nerfed, you'd find everyone running around with the same gear (e.g. flaylocks a month ago, MDs now), which would be very boring. |
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
36
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:53:00 -
[42] - Quote
demonkiller 12 wrote:Should only get partial respecs in the case of racial variant releases, amarr and minmatar tanks come out, you get back vehicle sp spent on caldari/gallenta, minmatar heavy comes out you get sp spent on amarr heavy. OR in the case that they completely change the way a skill works, ie, the HMG skill remake, anyone invested in that should get SP back
I actually like the idea of an option like this in lieu of a full on respec. I think if they dropped two or three new weapons in you get all your light weapons SP back. If you don't want to change it takes about 2 min to rekeying your skills but if you want to hop into a new skill tree you aren't dragging 1mil of SP boat anchor with you.
I suspect that its far easier to type this than it is to actually execute; I could see this option potentially being harder to actu+álly patch in than a full respec. If possible, I would re+álly like go see this if CCP really gets after filling out th+¿ racial variants. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3887
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:56:00 -
[43] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote: I like this idea in theory, but in practice it would be too complicated to apply. CCP would have to code a new category of 'SP that can only be used for certain skills', and convert a portion of spent SP on some characters into this new currency. There is a very high probability that something would go wrong. As far as I know ordinary SP refunds have always gone smoothly, so that's what they should do. In practice this will achieve much the same objective. For instance, someone getting refunded for their SP in Amarr heavy frames is almost certainly going to spend that SP on other heavy frames, as otherwise their millions of SP in heavy weapons, etc is wasted.
Keep in mind that CCP has a history of pulling off complicated changes with the skill tree system. Eve Online underwent countless rebalancing changes as CCP employed an algorithm that was able to unallocate certain skill points for each individual player based on what level of skill was invested in and even able to reallocate some of the skill points for players who invested heavily into the battelships. Very little in the way of problems ever cropped up and things went very smoothly for something as gargantuan as the Eve Online skill tree.
Now compare that tree with Dust's skill tree and you can see that this is not gonna be a problem. |
Ryme Intrinseca
Seraphim Auxiliaries
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:06:00 -
[44] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote: I like this idea in theory, but in practice it would be too complicated to apply. CCP would have to code a new category of 'SP that can only be used for certain skills', and convert a portion of spent SP on some characters into this new currency. There is a very high probability that something would go wrong. As far as I know ordinary SP refunds have always gone smoothly, so that's what they should do. In practice this will achieve much the same objective. For instance, someone getting refunded for their SP in Amarr heavy frames is almost certainly going to spend that SP on other heavy frames, as otherwise their millions of SP in heavy weapons, etc is wasted.
Keep in mind that CCP has a history of pulling off complicated changes with the skill tree system. Eve Online underwent countless rebalancing changes as CCP employed an algorithm that was able to unallocate certain skill points for each individual player based on what level of skill was invested in and even able to reallocate some of the skill points for players who invested heavily into the battelships. Very little in the way of problems ever cropped up and things went very smoothly for something as gargantuan as the Eve Online skill tree. Now compare that tree with Dust's skill tree and you can see that this is not gonna be a problem. I'm sure they could do it, the question is whether it's worth the programming effort to do it right. They haven't attempted this before on Dust, and I can't really see why they would bother in the future given, as I say, that pretty much the same outcome is achieved 'naturally' just by the fact that 90%+ of players will not want to say goodbye to the SP they put in complementary skills (e.g. heavy weapons for heavies, vehicle upgrades for pilots). |
Onesimus Tarsus
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
649
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:24:00 -
[45] - Quote
Beyobi wrote:No more respecs. I had to plan and live with my decisions, so should everyone else. Stop crying about your inability to read skill descriptions and weapon attributes. You made your choice, deal with it. I repeat, YOU made YOUR choice, DEAL WITH IT.
Begging for a respec IS dealing with it. If your weak game skills can't keep up with us respec champs, you might want to let your Jell-O set a bit.
Daily total respecs fo' life. |
Tek Hound
Death In Xcess Corporation
48
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:02:00 -
[46] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Tek Hound wrote:No real reason not to have a respec Option. Your player base is small as it is.why do you want more people to leave?No respec option equal bordem. The same was said for Eve Online and back then Eve didn't have much of a player base at all. In fact, 10,000 players at any given hour was considered a record for CCP back then. They only had one respec given since their own launch and that was it. To this day, there are still a few Eve players asking for respecs after ten years of no respecs. EDIT: PS: CCP would like to have more players. But let's face it. Most players will leave anyways regardless of what CCP does mainly because the game just wasn't for them. The New Eden galaxy is just too harsh for them. Even if CCP managed to implement respecs into the game, that's still not going to stop scrubs from leaving the game because of other factors such as (but not limited to): 1. Scams, ponzi schemes, pyramid schemes, etc. 2. Constant market manipulation via an oligopoly-like control from powerful alliances. 3. Corporate theft and espionage that can ruin years of work with a single push of a button. 4. Losing a $9,000 item in the middle of a major battle. 5. Someone posting a 500 million ISK bounty on someone else just because they hated your thread and now one-fourth of the galaxy is after your ass. etc. The harshness of the universe will just be too much for these people even if they get respecs. This is also not including the fact that once we have our own elections and vote in player-elected members for the next Council of Planetary Management, those with anti-respec views (assuming they are the majority) will elected players who will push for the removal of the respec system. If the Eve Online CSM can gain stakeholder influence (they actually do have it), then the CPM will as well.
Maybe but dust is a fps.No option in a fps is bordem.Lavs, snipers(I do like snipers but not dust), afkers alot of them are just bored.Sp in dust donsen't represent skill just time played.Why should you have to grind out another play style? |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1375
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:14:00 -
[47] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Django Quik wrote:One other SP refund policy I agree with is when skills/items are completely overhauled, like in the case of vehicles in 1.5 - that should come with a full and free refund of all associated skills in vehicles but dropsuit, weapon and equipment SP should be left as is. Don't agree with this. If people knew they could get back the SP they put into the FOTM once it's nerfed, you'd find everyone running around with the same gear (e.g. flaylocks a month ago, MDs now), which would be very boring. You misunderstand - I mean COMPLETELY overhauled. Not just nerfed. Nerfing does not meet my standards for requiring SP refund. I'm talking about changing the entire way the skill in question works. When vehicles are changed, they are being changed a huge amount and the way they are being changed will massively affect how they play in the game - that deserves an SP refund in vehicles. This sort of change will only ever happen once in a blue moon, so associated SP refunds will be extremely rare and limited. |
Spkr4theDead
International-Fleet
551
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:46:00 -
[48] - Quote
Let your SP pool instead of spending it all right away.
Simple as that. I still have 1.2mil unallocated after skilling into forge proficiency 3.
Vehicle users ought to get a respec for 1.5 because it's changing everything we currently know about vehicles, adding some modules, removing some modules, adding some skills and removing some skills, plus possible changes to the hulls.
Stop wanting a respec to get the next flavor of the month. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1377
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 21:59:00 -
[49] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Let your SP pool instead of spending it all right away.
Simple as that. I still have 1.2mil unallocated after skilling into forge proficiency 3.
Vehicle users ought to get a respec for 1.5 because it's changing everything we currently know about vehicles, adding some modules, removing some modules, adding some skills and removing some skills, plus possible changes to the hulls.
Stop wanting a respec to get the next flavor of the month. Exactly. But also remember that there's always something useful that you can spend your SP on. There are millions of SP worth of core skills and other useful stuff that won't dramatically shape your playstyle, like dropsuit upgrades, equipment, sidearms or grenades - this stuff will be useful whatever suit you use. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
1360
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:20:00 -
[50] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Let your SP pool instead of spending it all right away.
Simple as that. I still have 1.2mil unallocated after skilling into forge proficiency 3.
Vehicle users ought to get a respec for 1.5 because it's changing everything we currently know about vehicles, adding some modules, removing some modules, adding some skills and removing some skills, plus possible changes to the hulls.
Stop wanting a respec to get the next flavor of the month.
That's why this request for confirmation exists in the first place. Just because you're comfortable in how you spend your SP, doesn't mean others have to conform to that, and this request would at least let us make an informed decision. |
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
229
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:44:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:I'm sure they could do it, the question is whether it's worth the programming effort to do it right. They haven't attempted this before on Dust, and I can't really see why they would bother in the future given, as I say, that pretty much the same outcome is achieved 'naturally' just by the fact that 90%+ of players will not want to say goodbye to the SP they put in complementary skills (e.g. heavy weapons for heavies, vehicle upgrades for pilots).
Honestly, depending on how they store our merc's skill tree, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to write.
Write a script to 1) Modify all merc data containers to include a Heavy/Light SP pool 2) Iterate through all merc data containers and search for if they have skilled into Heavy/Light dropsuits 3) Remove those skills and skillbooks 4) Add sp cost of those skills to appropriate pool
Modify the game's code to 1) Only allow the special sp pool to be spent on light/heavy dropsuits (could also be written such that it can be easily applied to other cases for later use) 2) Modify UI to display the new pools (Probably the most difficult part tbh)
However, this does have the unfortunate side-effect of removing the levels of those who may not have wanted to have them removed but they could simply repurchase their skills again. Minor cost compared to doing it on an individual basis like the previous full respecs. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3890
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 22:46:00 -
[52] - Quote
@tek hound
It depends on what each individual considers to be an option. To me, more options doesn't mean having the ability to respec to try out more weapons. As you can see from the various opinions in this thread, what you consider an option may be considered taboo to another person. And what I consider to be an option, you might see it as taboo.
In regards to DUST being a fps, consider the possibility that the respec may not work in a balanced way even though respecs worked for other games like mag. Case in point, Eve Online and Guild Wars 2. The developers of Guild Wars 2 wanted to adopt the Eve-style market into their take. Since both games are technically mmo games it looked like it would work. But it didn't. The Guild Wars 2 economy failed and was given the worst rating as having the worst economy for an mmo back in 2012. Today, Eve Online still ranks #1 as having the best economy in the mmo industry.
What went wrong? I saw the system and I thought the Eve style market would work for gw2 since it's an mmo, but it didn't. It was a failure and the devs had to rush to at least stabilize it. I don't know how their economy is now compared to then. Now if a feature of one game didn't work in a feature of another game of the same genre, how can anyone be certain that respecs from one fps won't fail in DUST in the same genre? |
RedZer0 MK1
Opus Arcana
35
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:01:00 -
[53] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:@tek hound
It depends on what each individual considers to be an option. To me, more options doesn't mean having the ability to respec to try out more weapons. As you can see from the various opinions in this thread, what you consider an option may be considered taboo to another person. And what I consider to be an option, you might see it as taboo.
In regards to DUST being a fps, consider the possibility that the respec may not work in a balanced way even though respecs worked for other games like mag. Case in point, Eve Online and Guild Wars 2. The developers of Guild Wars 2 wanted to adopt the Eve-style market into their take. Since both games are technically mmo games it looked like it would work. But it didn't. The Guild Wars 2 economy failed and was given the worst rating as having the worst economy for an mmo back in 2012. Today, Eve Online still ranks #1 as having the best economy in the mmo industry.
What went wrong? I saw the system and I thought the Eve style market would work for gw2 since it's an mmo, but it didn't. It was a failure and the devs had to rush to at least stabilize it. I don't know how their economy is now compared to then. Now if a feature of one game didn't work in a feature of another game of the same genre, how can anyone be certain that respecs from one fps won't fail in DUST in the same genre?
First reasonable counter to respecs I have ever heard. I digress, we have seen what happens when part of the community does respec. People specced into 'OP' stuff, but that isn't a hit AGAINST respects. That was a problem in design (weapons&suits). |
Beyobi
Soldiers Of One Network Orion Empire
117
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:33:00 -
[54] - Quote
Onesimus Tarsus wrote:Beyobi wrote:No more respecs. I had to plan and live with my decisions, so should everyone else. Stop crying about your inability to read skill descriptions and weapon attributes. You made your choice, deal with it. I repeat, YOU made YOUR choice, DEAL WITH IT. Begging for a respec IS dealing with it. If your weak game skills can't keep up with us respec champs, you might want to let your Jell-O set a bit. Daily total respecs fo' life.
Begging is for crybabies and those who can't get something on their own ability. Do you lack ability? Is that why you beg? My skills are allocated just fine to take on any flavor of the month, that was part reading and part planning. Decisions have consequences and Dust should uphold that. |
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