DUST Search - CCP Mass drivers are ****.

Csikszent Mihalyi wrote:

Time to kill is such a non-sense statistic for mass drivers.

Even if both players directly engage each other, any other weapon is not going to hit every single shot. But what's more important is that mass drivers can make themselves extremely elusive. The best mass drivers strafe like mad men in close combat (they'd be silly not to) and still hit every single shot because it's practically impossible to miss with it. Especially combined with the disorienting elements of being hit by the grenades, this alone creates a major imbalance.

But even more significantly, a mass driver can stay behind cover for 90% of the time, either popping out for a split second to launch a round, or even hitting the target behind cover. The little targeting triangles are essentially a wall-hack which makes this tactic incredibly easy.

A rifle user has to stay within line of sight during 100% of their damage output, which makes it practically impossible to compete with mass drivers who really know what they are doing.

Yes, the mass driver has poor effective range (which is ridiculous considering it's a grenade launcher) and limited ammunition which may be keeping it at bay to some extend, but in close to mid range it really is an "I win" button and it's not that hard to get into this range.

It's not bad enough to make me quit the game, but it saddens me that CCP apparently has no opinion on it other than "let's wait for the statistics". Everything recently seems to be about statistics and metrics. You know, it is possible to analyse these things beforehand... That's what game designers should be paid for.

My prediction is that the situation is going to gradually escalate until we will get the inevitable correction in 1.5 or 1.6. Let's see if I'm wrong.

Personally I think it would be horrible to just nerf the mass driver as it is, because that would just make it a worse weapon without addressing the fundamental problem with it. There are many possible changes which would make the weapon more interesting and balanced without necessarily reducing it's potential efficiency at the hands of a skilled user. One such possibility would be the minimum flight time which has been brought up a few times. Another would be gradual damage fall-off for explosives, so higher accuracy is actually rewarded.

I would much rather see a change like that, than simply reduced clip size or damage properties. If you only tweak values as a response to metrics, you run the risk of losing sight of the bigger picture. This isn't an RPG after all.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Johnny Guilt Algintal Core Gallente Federation 234	Posted - 2013.08.30 07:42:00 - [61] - Quote Mass driver isnt OP,it's just cheap, and efftive at what its does,for how much splash damage it does in a clip it kills 2-3 in pubs and if your not pushing 400+ shields your ez cheese. The only thing i see CCP doing is buffing up other CQC oriented weapons in some form to be on par with it.(shotguns,Sar, etc..)
Cosgar ParagonX 4599	Posted - 2013.08.30 08:12:00 - [62] - Quote I'll give it a couple of weeks after 1.4 for the MD usage to die down while everyone flocks to the laser. Calling it now.
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 218	Posted - 2013.08.30 09:31:00 - [63] - Quote i have level four on all light weapons except the plasma cannon and the sinper, all of the gunns at that level preform in my hands exactly evenly, i only prefer one over the other is certian situations.i think they are all balanced well
Rogue Saint Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 108	Posted - 2013.08.30 09:48:00 - [64] - Quote As a proto masshole user I would be more than happy to see the weapon removed from the game. Those using it and think they are skilled are stupid and have zero gungame. I haven't used the MD for weeks now as the "fun" wore off pretty quickly having realised its a scrub weapon. Me and my corp regularly go against nearly full teams of massholes now, its getting to the point where we are taking bets before the matches on how many opposing players will be using the lame weapon. The faillock is dead, its been replaced by the masshole for the players who have zero skill.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 161	Posted - 2013.08.30 10:05:00 - [65] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: I think with the aiming updates in 1.4 we are going to see massholes getting dropped a lot faster. We need to see the full impact of these changes before we make any nerfs/buffs. Please stop caving in to garbage players who place the blame for their failures on weapons and game mechanics when it's their reckless and incompetent style of play that gets them killed. You overly aggressive AR guys with your paper thin suits absolutely deserve to die against mass drivers. Instead of learning your lesson by taking advantage of your range and playing in more competitive gear, you instead keep doing the same thing over and over and over again. Your stupidity is not my problem, it's yours! CCP, keep your hands off the MD. Don't reward these fools for sucking instead of adapting and getting better. Please!
Eldest Dragon 0uter.Heaven 97	Posted - 2013.08.30 10:17:00 - [66] - Quote Eris Ernaga wrote: ladwar wrote: get good.. the MD has the longest time to kill out of any other weapon lol okay sure it does Ladwar dude, get real, i'm with you eris.
Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 623	Posted - 2013.08.30 10:28:00 - [67] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: I think with the aiming updates in 1.4 we are going to see massholes getting dropped a lot faster. We need to see the full impact of these changes before we make any nerfs/buffs. The simple fix for Mass drivers would be simply change the AoE to that of the flaylock or similiar really, it's not the damage thats annoying people, it's the fact you cannot dodge a mass driver where as every other weapon in the game has to deal with strafing
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 112	Posted - 2013.08.30 10:29:00 - [68] - Quote Right now the game favours the use of explosive weapons imho thats the reason so many people uses them right now. Bad hit detection and aiming help these weapons alot as this is not such a big problem on splash weapons as it is for non splash weapons. This makes the time to kill longer on non splash wepaons. So lets first see what the changes in 1.4 will do. But there are still some problem with the MD especially in CQC I have recently charged a lot of MD user and get killed at point blank where as the MD user did not get any damage from his own splash there seems something weird with the splash damage regarding damage towards the MD user.
superjoe360x D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 62	Posted - 2013.08.30 10:33:00 - [69] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: I think with the aiming updates in 1.4 we are going to see massholes getting dropped a lot faster. We need to see the full impact of these changes before we make any nerfs/buffs. Is there any chance they might one day go back to 4/6 clips instead of 6/8, now that explosions register properly and what not? We didn't have any plans to, I'll file that thought away in the possible nerfs draw until we see the impact of 1.4. How bout you look into giving ARs some recoil. ARs since the range fix are a little pinpoint and OP. I run massdrivers now and last night I went back to my Toxin AR in one game and did just as good as I do using my proto massdriver. No gun should be able to shoot full auto with pinpoint accuracy.
Rogue Saint Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 109	Posted - 2013.08.30 10:36:00 - [70] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: But there are still some problem with the MD especially in CQC I have recently charged a lot of MD user and get killed at point blank where as the MD user did not get any damage from his own splash there seems something weird with the splash damage regarding damage towards the MD user. "Back-splash" is ******, and its not "direct damage" hits that is negating it.

superjoe360x D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 62	Posted - 2013.08.30 10:41:00 - [71] - Quote superjoe360x wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: I think with the aiming updates in 1.4 we are going to see massholes getting dropped a lot faster. We need to see the full impact of these changes before we make any nerfs/buffs. Is there any chance they might one day go back to 4/6 clips instead of 6/8, now that explosions register properly and what not? We didn't have any plans to, I'll file that thought away in the possible nerfs draw until we see the impact of 1.4. How bout you look into giving ARs some recoil. ARs since the range fix are a little pinpoint and OP. I run massdrivers now and last night I went back to my Toxin AR in one game and did just as good as I do using my proto massdriver. No gun should be able to shoot full auto with pinpoint accuracy. Also in pubs last night there was a player with AE who had 46 kills with an Exile. The massdriver doesn't get enough ammo or have a fast enough fire rate to down that many ppl if they stood in front of me. 20 kills is a good number for me in a domination. This guy shot me from 90 some meters in my proto suit and chewed through my 850 HP like a hot knife through butter. That's a distance no auto AR should be that effective from and now your saying it will get worse because of an aiming fix. More no aiming reds can shred suits with cheap ARs. Nice work.
bonkersfox Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 210	Posted - 2013.08.30 10:42:00 - [72] - Quote After they nerf the mass driver, then maybe they could turn their attention to the assault rifle, I get killed by the ar more than anything else, most of my corp and others use the ar, maybe if you nerfed it players would stop using it and we could all get back to hitting each other to death...... oh wait that's op to....
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 112	Posted - 2013.08.30 11:03:00 - [73] - Quote bonkersfox wrote: After they nerf the mass driver, then maybe they could turn their attention to the assault rifle, I get killed by the ar more than anything else, most of my corp and others use the ar, maybe if you nerfed it players would stop using it and we could all get back to hitting each other to death...... oh wait that's op to.... I wouldn't mind a reasonable amount of Recoil and Spread of the AR, but most people forget there are two skills that significantly reduces both. Even with a comparable recoil like in other games for the AR at 0 SP. The fully specced Ar will be pretty accurate when maxed out. The skill is the reason everyone believes the AR is more accurate than the AsCR. But on the other hand it takes more SP investment to get the AR there than it takes for most other weapons as there is simply on additional skill. (the Split of these skill was already a nerf for the AR)
Monkey MAC killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance 51	Posted - 2013.08.30 11:14:00 - [74] - Quote Csikszent Mihalyi wrote: Time to kill is such a non-sense statistic for mass drivers. Even if both players directly engage each other, any other weapon is not going to hit every single shot. But what's more important is that mass drivers can make themselves extremely elusive. The best mass drivers strafe like mad men in close combat (they'd be silly not to) and still hit every single shot because it's practically impossible to miss with it. Especially combined with the disorienting elements of being hit by the grenades, this alone creates a major imbalance. But even more significantly, a mass driver can stay behind cover for 90% of the time, either popping out for a split second to launch a round, or even hitting the target behind cover. The little targeting triangles are essentially a wall-hack which makes this tactic incredibly easy. A rifle user has to stay within line of sight during 100% of their damage output, which makes it practically impossible to compete with mass drivers who really know what they are doing. Yes, the mass driver has poor effective range (which is ridiculous considering it's a grenade launcher) and limited ammunition which may be keeping it at bay to some extend, but in close to mid range it really is an "I win" button and it's not that hard to get into this range. It's not bad enough to make me quit the game, but it saddens me that CCP apparently has no opinion on it other than "let's wait for the statistics". Everything recently seems to be about statistics and metrics. You know, it is possible to analyse these things beforehand... That's what game designers should be paid for. My prediction is that the situation is going to gradually escalate until we will get the inevitable correction in 1.5 or 1.6. Let's see if I'm wrong. Personally I think it would be horrible to just nerf the mass driver as it is, because that would just make it a worse weapon without addressing the fundamental problem with it. There are many possible changes which would make the weapon more interesting and balanced without necessarily reducing it's potential efficiency at the hands of a skilled user. One such possibility would be the minimum flight time which has been brought up a few times. Another would be gradual damage fall-off for explosives, so higher accuracy is actually rewarded. I would much rather see a change like that, than simply reduced clip size or damage properties. If you only tweak values as a response to metrics, you run the risk of losing sight of the bigger picture. This isn't an RPG after all. So first off time to kill is incredibly important to a mass driver, a ar can empty 2 clips and reload for them third in the time a massdrive gets through and reloads 1 clip, this means with each shot extra it takes the md users survivability drop dramatically. As for hiding behind cover, your now prosecuting someone who is using the downfalls of a weapon to their advantage, what do you want us to do, nerf logic? Have you though about of using this time where he hides behind cover to escape and flank him? A mass driver will always strafe because not doing so will condemn him to death, mthe whole purpose of a aoe weapon is to minimize twitch strafing, at the cost of a high dps, the splash damage is only 127 for proto just over 1/3 or ar, so only 5 shots a second need to connect and you'll win, with a militia variant. As for the triangles we weild one of the few weapons tha actually have bullet drop, so with out an aim finder we are just expected to guess where it'll land? Iron sights tell you exactly where your rounds will hit because of the nature of your weapon,, hitting behind cover is only a problem if you stay in poor cover, the explosion doesn't furvd round the box, the user has to hit behind it, once again you wanna nerf logic? You wanna know how to an md user? Dont engage him between 10 and 20m, his optimal range as all minmatar weapons are, the shotgun requires a bujf tk make it the king of -10m, but this not the mass drivers fault!!
CrotchGrab 360 High-Damage 220	Posted - 2013.08.30 11:29:00 - [75] - Quote MDs are fine, unless someone is camping on a roof with one. That's when I just leave the game. Let them kill someone else, isn't going to be me. I wonder, would people be more annoyed at Mass Driver users if they also used Kin Cats? Wondering what to spec into on my alt, I'm not that good but if I run fast perhaps that will bring the QQ to the table where I shall devour it. "whatever I see, I devour, snarrffhfhrfh".
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 1164	Posted - 2013.08.30 11:30:00 - [76] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: I think with the aiming updates in 1.4 we are going to see massholes getting dropped a lot faster. We need to see the full impact of these changes before we make any nerfs/buffs. CCP loves data, so I wonder what the data shows in terms of AR kills vs MD kills as it is now. No doubt AR's are king among the charts, BY FAR. So the fact that MD's are even being looked at for potential nerfs, is saddening. I have been an exclusive AR user for almost a year now in Dust, and only until recently (a month or so) have I really tried other weapons. The MD comes sort of close to the AR in terms of effectiveness (but only in CQC), so if it gets any kind of nerf whatsoever, then it will be garbage like every other non-AR weapon in the game. As an AR user, I would like to ask you guys to stop pandering to the AR's in the game and let the other weapons reach a similar mark of efficiency.
CrotchGrab 360 High-Damage 220	Posted - 2013.08.30 11:32:00 - [77] - Quote superjoe360x wrote: superjoe360x wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: I think with the aiming updates in 1.4 we are going to see massholes getting dropped a lot faster. We need to see the full impact of these changes before we make any nerfs/buffs. Is there any chance they might one day go back to 4/6 clips instead of 6/8, now that explosions register properly and what not? We didn't have any plans to, I'll file that thought away in the possible nerfs draw until we see the impact of 1.4. How bout you look into giving ARs some recoil. ARs since the range fix are a little pinpoint and OP. I run massdrivers now and last night I went back to my Toxin AR in one game and did just as good as I do using my proto massdriver. No gun should be able to shoot full auto with pinpoint accuracy. Also in pubs last night there was a player with AE who had 46 kills with an Exile. The massdriver doesn't get enough ammo or have a fast enough fire rate to down that many ppl if they stood in front of me. 20 kills is a good number for me in a domination. This guy shot me from 90 some meters in my proto suit and chewed through my 850 HP like a hot knife through butter. That's a distance no auto AR should be that effective from and now your saying it will get worse because of an aiming fix. More no aiming reds can shred suits with cheap ARs. Nice work. 46 kills? I reckon that guy was so out of sync with the server it literally gave him kills and nobody could get a single hit marker. You can't run around destroying like that unless people literally cannot hit you.
Monkey MAC killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance 51	Posted - 2013.08.30 11:50:00 - [78] - Quote CrotchGrab 360 wrote: superjoe360x wrote: superjoe360x wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Is there any chance they might one day go back to 4/6 clips instead of 6/8, now that explosions register properly and what not? We didn't have any plans to, I'll file that thought away in the possible nerfs draw until we see the impact of 1.4. How bout you look into giving ARs some recoil. ARs since the range fix are a little pinpoint and OP. I run massdrivers now and last night I went back to my Toxin AR in one game and did just as good as I do using my proto massdriver. No gun should be able to shoot full auto with pinpoint accuracy. Also in pubs last night there was a player with AE who had 46 kills with an Exile. The massdriver doesn't get enough ammo or have a fast enough fire rate to down that many ppl if they stood in front of me. 20 kills is a good number for me in a domination. This guy shot me from 90 some meters in my proto suit and chewed through my 850 HP like a hot knife through butter. That's a distance no auto AR should be that effective from and now your saying it will get worse because of an aiming fix. More no aiming reds can shred suits with cheap ARs. Nice work. 46 kills? I reckon that guy was so out of sync with the server it literally gave him kills and nobody could get a single hit marker. You can't run around destroying like that unless people literally cannot hit you. Or he runs round with kincats hipfiring, try it on a sheild tanked mini, instant mm profit!!
ARC Stig Army of 420's Lokun Listamenn 2	Posted - 2013.08.30 12:00:00 - [79] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: I think with the aiming updates in 1.4 we are going to see massholes getting dropped a lot faster. We need to see the full impact of these changes before we make any nerfs/buffs. I hope this new aiming system is better than the current, mabye its me, but I seem to always find myself pointing to either side of the guy i'm trying to take out. And that usually ends badly for me unless he has to reload and I can try to punch him to death...
Clips A'hoy The Generals EoN. 21	Posted - 2013.08.30 12:15:00 - [80] - Quote This is how you go againts a MD and succeed: - Take out SMG - Ram (get on point blank distance) the offender with your spray-and-pray bullets of death. - ??? = Profit. MDs can barely defend themselves point blank and for the most part they'll either end up killing themselves or damage themselves. Either way it works 90% of the time.

Panther Alpha DarkWingsss 971	Posted - 2013.08.30 12:24:00 - [81] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: I think with the aiming updates in 1.4 we are going to see massholes getting dropped a lot faster. We need to see the full impact of these changes before we make any nerfs/buffs. Yeah... hold your horses, the aiming fixes are going to have a "significant" impact in the game-play.
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 192	Posted - 2013.08.30 13:00:00 - [82] - Quote ladwar wrote: get good.. the MD has the longest time to kill out of any other weapon The MD is not being used the way that kind of weapon is intended. Players are taking advantage of the lack of permadeath and virtual danger that is a video game to use it like a ******* handheld 50 cal.
Monkey MAC killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance 51	Posted - 2013.08.30 13:02:00 - [83] - Quote Operative 1171 Aajli wrote: ladwar wrote: get good.. the MD has the longest time to kill out of any other weapon The MD is not being used the way that kind of weapon is intended. Players are taking advantage of the lack of permadeath and virtual danger that is a video game to use it like a ******* handheld 50 cal. Thats not the point being made, youve got plenty of time to counter or just get out!!
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 1067	Posted - 2013.08.30 13:08:00 - [84] - Quote CrotchGrab 360 wrote: MDs are fine, unless someone is camping on a roof with one. That's when I just leave the game. Let them kill someone else, isn't going to be me. I wonder, would people be more annoyed at Mass Driver users if they also used Kin Cats? Wondering what to spec into on my alt, I'm not that good but if I run fast perhaps that will bring the QQ to the table where I shall devour it. "whatever I see, I devour, snarrffhfhrfh". If he's on a roof just grab a sniper rifle and kill him, or a forge gun, mass driver, maybe a dropship. Somebody in your squad knows how to do that, right? Leaving the game is a scrub move.
Beeeees KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 130	Posted - 2013.08.30 13:14:00 - [85] - Quote Hahaha youve gotta see this ** https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=105769 The exact same topic post but about ARs, locked for ranting about 30 seconds in. I love CCP sometimes. This time I dont. Let me quote this little gem: CCP Logibro wrote:** Locked for ranting. Please try to be constructive with your feedback.
Anmol Singh the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 326	Posted - 2013.08.30 13:25:00 - [86] - Quote ladwar wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: ladwar wrote: get good.. the MD has the longest time to kill out of any other weapon ? well it hits everytime thats why every1 uses it, you dont always hit with the AR, but you do with the MD. range... trust me its hard to hit anything over 40m away. height really helps to but range helps as well and if you see him first you should win every time but if they start launching shoots your down that time but your lower time to kill can still win over. 40m range with AR- its pretty hard to hit **** as well not to mention that i does no damage...
Cosgar ParagonX 4603	Posted - 2013.08.30 13:43:00 - [87] - Quote Beeeees wrote: Hahaha youve gotta see this ** https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=105769 The exact same topic post but about ARs, locked for ranting about 30 seconds in. I love CCP sometimes. This time I dont. Let me quote this little gem: CCP Logibro wrote: Locked for ranting. Please try to be constructive with your feedback. That's such bull **. Don't say anything about Caldari assault, you might get IP banned for it.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1077	Posted - 2013.08.30 13:49:00 - [88] - Quote Operative 1171 Aajli wrote: ladwar wrote: get good.. the MD has the longest time to kill out of any other weapon The MD is not being used the way that kind of weapon is intended. Players are taking advantage of the lack of permadeath and virtual danger that is a video game to use it like a ******* handheld 50 cal. I've got over 10,000 kills with a MD. Since they fixed the hit detection (when the flock to the MD began) I've killed myself hundreds of times. I CQC with the MD, I do not camp from up high. If you shoot someone point blank in the face with a MD you will kill yourself and the enemy will receive ZERO damage (it's some kind of glitch). It's the splash radius people. The Freedom has a 4.4 radius (5.5 with skills), just lower it where you'll have 4.4 with skills and it will solve the problem.
xLT Green Damage Core corp. The Superpowers 24	Posted - 2013.08.30 13:53:00 - [89] - Quote I don't think the MD is op its just over used. The flaylock got nurfed that was a sad day but its still effective and functions as intended. The MD witch I have no points in is a good balance to the game. Everyone how has one typically runs eather a flat face assault (caldari) or butt pirate (minnmatar) .... My way is easer to spell lol. Any ways amarr Nd gallente are armor based so its are kryptonite. Well to the flat face a laser pr SR will eat them alive. And man do I love killing protoMD and assault s down with my standard fit it makes me smile
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5963	Posted - 2013.08.30 14:08:00 - [90] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: I think with the aiming updates in 1.4 we are going to see massholes getting dropped a lot faster. We need to see the full impact of these changes before we make any nerfs/buffs. Is there any chance they might one day go back to 4/6 clips instead of 6/8, now that explosions register properly and what not? We didn't have any plans to, I'll file that thought away in the possible nerfs draw until we see the impact of 1.4. Thank you for the response, I look forward to 1.4 and 1.5 to start testing out your hard work (and everyone elses hard work :p)



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