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Sardonk Eternia
Multnomah Interstellar Holdings Inc.
179
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Posted - 2013.08.29 21:46:00 -
[31] - Quote
To the question of what do dust bunnies have to offer to capsuleers: a market. I read right after the last phase of beta the amount of ISK destroyed in Dust was actually about the same as the amount destroyed in EVE. What we need is a way for capsuleer industrialists to manufacture our weapons and gear. Then suddenly there's a reason to link economies. Then if they just increase the meaningfulness of controlling planets for capsuleers and implement a contracting system we will be set. God they should just hire me. I made it sound so simple... |
Raymundo Kagestad V
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
50
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Posted - 2013.08.30 00:20:00 -
[32] - Quote
ReGnYuM wrote:Oh Gawd not this again Seriously, almost every roundtable at Fanfest always ended with merging the economies or mining.Luckly CCP also made quite it clear that either is not going to happen for a while. Eve Integration needs to first and foremost focus on battle support: OBs, sending in drones, Logistics, scouting... etc. Only once a strong foundation is formed, should CCP move on to economy and other things.
Lord of General Discussion Winner of Closed Beta Tester TournamentWinner of Eve/Dust 514 PvP Fanfest Tournament KDR > EVERYTHING
And...Interest in this game died instantly with this post. |
Billi Gene
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
366
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Posted - 2013.08.30 00:52:00 -
[33] - Quote
CCP needs to make PI rights exclusive to ground control corps, or have ground controlling corp have the ability to sell rights for PI on a weekly/monthly basis. This will only effectively work if all planets and moons are available for PC battles.
All merc gear has corresponding BPO in Eve already, it may be possible to allow mercs to manufacture, but that would require a new skill tree (or 2), and with no way to gather materials mercs would need to buy them all from the market, or thru contract.
The contracts system is another headache. Unless mercs gain access to gravity lifts and POCO's, or at the very least, be able to nominate a home system and rent office space. |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
379
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 00:57:00 -
[34] - Quote
demonkiller 12 wrote:Amy Artic wrote:The exchange rate of Dust Isk and Eve Isk, Too easy to farm isk in Dust.
Also what are we gonna buy from Eve players? and what are they gonna buy from us? These are questions that CCP are probably asking themselves. IMHO we should be able to produce parts for ships and the ships themselves, and Eve players should be able to make dropsuits as well as weapons, it would allow free trade between the players of both games.
Anyway, for us to have have a functioning economy with the EVE players we need to be able to mine and manufacture stuff the EVE players want, and visa versa, and atm it is not implemented in any way.
Trading between Dust players though, this I see coming sooner. EVE players already can manufacture ground equipment, you can search the BPOs of weapon/mods/vehicles/suits on the market And we already take part in PI
no, they can't. those things are listed in the market as place holders. they don't really exist. |
Shadow Archeus
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
124
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:23:00 -
[35] - Quote
I had a totally weird idea of how to make it beneficial to both eve and dust players........bear with me I'm kinda baked
Make the taxed amount of isk go towards pub match rewards in dust
Joe is an eve pilot he sends 1 mil isk to Bob the dust Marc The tax rate is 50% for my model here Bob gets 500k isk The taxed isk goes into a "pot" in dust..this pot depending on how "full" it is increases payout in pub matches Because payout gets better Bob plays more and therefore needs more money for better gear....he then has to buy off the eve players who make gear so he buys gear from Joe because Joe gave him money before....Joe can make Bob pay enough on gear to cover joes 1mil loss from earlier....
I dunno I thought I was onto something |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
3380
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:26:00 -
[36] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:Nomed Deeps wrote:Quote:when EvE and Dust do Merge I want the differnce between a corp having EvE support and a corp without to be noticeable to say the least! Shouldn't merging economies between games be one of the first steps of merging the two games though? But in what way? problem is..what does Dust have to offer the EvE community? Assets for production.
Have you even considered how much **** we destroy every single day? Every single hour, and even minute?
That's a ******* MASSIVE source of income for an EVE player. Dust gear might cost less, but the volume more than makes up for it, especially now that CCP is fixing this game up and we'll finally get new content to up the player count. |
itsmellslikefish
DIOS X. II Top Men.
186
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:29:00 -
[37] - Quote
I think dust first needs an actuall economy. Like player markets. Now. Mabey twomorow. Plz. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3826
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:46:00 -
[38] - Quote
There is a reason why they are separate for now. For one, we need a functional industry on top of the secondary market within Dust in order for the Dust economy to merge with the Eve economy.=
One way of going about it is by allowing Dust players a way to harvest resources that can be sold or traded to Eve player who then use those resources to manufacture the infantry gear needed and then those Eve players sell or trade the infantry gear to Dust players.
The reason behind letting Eve players handle the manufacturing portion of the industry is because Eve players have had a 10 year head start compared to us and therefore they have a very heavily established and intricate production process. They have the production and logistics chains setup and the means to research for their production. We don't. At least not yet. But we can at least have the base framework in place for harvesting materials needed for production.
As you can see, industry is key to establishing a healthy economy across two games like Eve and Dust. |
Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
demonkiller 12 wrote:Amy Artic wrote:The exchange rate of Dust Isk and Eve Isk, Too easy to farm isk in Dust.
Also what are we gonna buy from Eve players? and what are they gonna buy from us? These are questions that CCP are probably asking themselves. IMHO we should be able to produce parts for ships and the ships themselves, and Eve players should be able to make dropsuits as well as weapons, it would allow free trade between the players of both games.
Anyway, for us to have have a functioning economy with the EVE players we need to be able to mine and manufacture stuff the EVE players want, and visa versa, and atm it is not implemented in any way.
Trading between Dust players though, this I see coming sooner. EVE players already can manufacture ground equipment, you can search the BPOs of weapon/mods/vehicles/suits on the market And we already take part in PI No they cant cause if you try to "purchase" one of the infantry BPO's it wont let you buy it. And no we dont take part in PC. None of our actions has a impact on the structures from a eve player that has set facilitys on a planet.
Billi Gene wrote:CCP needs to make PI rights exclusive to ground control corps, or have ground controlling corp have the ability to sell rights for PI on a weekly/monthly basis. This will only effectively work if all planets and moons are available for PC battles.
All merc gear has corresponding BPO in Eve already, it may be possible to allow mercs to manufacture, but that would require a new skill tree (or 2), and with no way to gather materials mercs would need to buy them all from the market, or thru contract.
The contracts system is another headache. Unless mercs gain access to gravity lifts and POCO's, or at the very least, be able to nominate a home system and rent office space. Wont be happening due to the steady income that eve players are used to. You obviously think that we dust players are more as just pawns. Realise the fact that there is only purpose for dust players. And that is to kill other dust players. We dont manufacture, we dont research and we surely do not mine veldspar with forgeguns. |
Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 01:56:00 -
[40] - Quote
double post ftw. |
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dustwaffle
Ill Omens
410
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:26:00 -
[41] - Quote
Sardonk Eternia wrote:I read right after the last phase of beta the amount of ISK destroyed in Dust was actually about the same as the amount destroyed in EVE. Source?
Also, there aren't very many ISK sinks in EVE, so you might be right. The only way ISK gets destroyed is through stuff you pay to NPC's, such as taxes, war dec fees, corp creation fees, alliance creation fees etc. |
Rei Shepard
Spectre II
476
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
Amy Artic wrote:The exchange rate of Dust Isk and Eve Isk, Too easy to farm isk in Dust.
I really hope you mean, that its too easy to farm ISK in eve, not dust ?
I make 750-800m ISK in 3 hours when i feel like making some ISK in Eve running PVE missions, thats a Plex to play eve for free for a month, i mean in the same timeframe i make 2.4m isk in Dust....
Quote: Also, there aren't very many ISK sinks in EVE, so you might be right. The only way ISK gets destroyed is through stuff you pay to NPC's, such as taxes, war dec fees, corp creation fees, alliance creation fees etc.
Dont forget ships blowing up stocked to the brim of 32 billion iskies ..... |
Justicar Karnellia
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 08:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
Although I understand where the OP is coming from, I'd say it's generous to say we even have an economy, because we have a market, but its' one way with prices managed centrally... there is no player based economy since we can't trade or sell things to each other (yet). We can of course, give each other ISK for services, however dubious they may be, but there is no goods trade and no supply/demand effect on right now, which is the basis for a capitalist market.
I feel once they've introduced player->player trading and some kind of contract system then they can start working on integrating both economies a bit better. However, on the roadmap, it is difficult to place how important this is to CCP, whether it will be in 2013 at all, or is stretched way into 2014. I feel it would really engage players more as you have a "metagame" in a sense that keeps you busy when you get bored of running instant battles. |
dustwaffle
Ill Omens
414
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:40:00 -
[44] - Quote
Rei Shepard wrote:Quote: Also, there aren't very many ISK sinks in EVE, so you might be right. The only way ISK gets destroyed is through stuff you pay to NPC's, such as taxes, war dec fees, corp creation fees, alliance creation fees etc.
Dont forget ships blowing up stocked to the brim of 32 billion iskies ..... Not really, ship and module destruction do NOT destroy isk. In fact, PVP and ship destruction creates ISK for the eve economy in the form of ship insurance. The ISK may have disappeared from your wallet when you buy a ship, but that ISK is merely transferred to another person's wallet (with a small portion paid in taxes etc.) |
dustwaffle
Ill Omens
414
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 09:46:00 -
[45] - Quote
Justicar Karnellia wrote:Although I understand where the OP is coming from, I'd say it's generous to say we even have an economy, because we have a market, but its' one way with prices managed centrally... there is no player based economy since we can't trade or sell things to each other (yet). We can of course, give each other ISK for services, however dubious they may be, but there is no goods trade and no supply/demand effect on right now, which is the basis for a capitalist market.
I feel once they've introduced player->player trading and some kind of contract system then they can start working on integrating both economies a bit better. However, on the roadmap, it is difficult to place how important this is to CCP, whether it will be in 2013 at all, or is stretched way into 2014. I feel it would really engage players more as you have a "metagame" in a sense that keeps you busy when you get bored of running instant battles. Just wondering though, for all the talk about market and player trading, not sure if you guys have played EVE, but the assets are tied to a specific location, and to sell or give to another player in another location, you have to either bring it there yourself, get someone to move it, or get the buyer to come over.
Based on my limited understanding of Dust lore, I remember that this is not the case in Dust. Weapons/dropsuits/fittings are 'manufactured' on the spot each time you die in a battle, and shipped out along with your clone. The manufacturing is done through blueprint copies (limited) or blueprint originals (unlimited).
In view of the above, how would player trading be implemented? Would each merc be, for example, located in each system, and if you wanted to trade with someone, there would be a cost depending on how far the counterparty is? I'm assuming, lore-wise, that it's less a physical transfer of items and more of a "here's 10 runs of a blueprint copy of Balac AR's"
Just food for thought.
EDIT: didn't mean to quote you, just a general question. |
Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
68
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:12:00 -
[46] - Quote
dustwaffle wrote:Rei Shepard wrote:Quote: Also, there aren't very many ISK sinks in EVE, so you might be right. The only way ISK gets destroyed is through stuff you pay to NPC's, such as taxes, war dec fees, corp creation fees, alliance creation fees etc.
Dont forget ships blowing up stocked to the brim of 32 billion iskies ..... Not really, ship and module destruction do NOT destroy isk. In fact, PVP and ship destruction creates ISK for the eve economy in the form of ship insurance. The ISK may have disappeared from your wallet when you buy a ship, but that ISK is merely transferred to another person's wallet (with a small portion paid in taxes etc.) Wrong the insurance barely covers the value from a ship and the modules have a 50% drop chance. So The difference between insurance payout and actual value is ISK destroyed. Same goes for modules cause if they dont drop from the wreck then the ISK is aswell gone. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
3829
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:39:00 -
[47] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:dustwaffle wrote:Rei Shepard wrote:Quote: Also, there aren't very many ISK sinks in EVE, so you might be right. The only way ISK gets destroyed is through stuff you pay to NPC's, such as taxes, war dec fees, corp creation fees, alliance creation fees etc.
Dont forget ships blowing up stocked to the brim of 32 billion iskies ..... Not really, ship and module destruction do NOT destroy isk. In fact, PVP and ship destruction creates ISK for the eve economy in the form of ship insurance. The ISK may have disappeared from your wallet when you buy a ship, but that ISK is merely transferred to another person's wallet (with a small portion paid in taxes etc.) Wrong the insurance barely covers the value from a ship and the modules have a 50% drop chance. So The difference between insurance payout and actual value is ISK destroyed. Same goes for modules cause if they dont drop from the wreck then the ISK is aswell gone.
There are also verious ISK sinks.
1. Purchasing from NPCs (skill books, civilian modules, etc.) 2. Paying for insurance 3. Paying broker fees 4. sales tax 5. manufacturing fees 6. research fees 7. contract fees 8. Exporting PI materials from the planets to the NPC customs offices (assuming the POCO is still NPC owned). 9. Fees for establishing and upgrading planetary colonies. This is very common considering that 95% of the materials needed to manufacture a POS tower comes only from the planets.
The fees and stuff are generally small but have a massive cumulative effect. |
R'adeh Hunt
the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY
368
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 17:42:00 -
[48] - Quote
The problem might be inflation. A lot of us EVE oldtimers are filthy rich and could mess with the player mods market in Dust 514 just for fun.
I for one can't wait to mess with the market in Dust |
Karl Koekwaus
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
159
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:10:00 -
[49] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:dustwaffle wrote:Rei Shepard wrote:Quote: Also, there aren't very many ISK sinks in EVE, so you might be right. The only way ISK gets destroyed is through stuff you pay to NPC's, such as taxes, war dec fees, corp creation fees, alliance creation fees etc.
Dont forget ships blowing up stocked to the brim of 32 billion iskies ..... Not really, ship and module destruction do NOT destroy isk. In fact, PVP and ship destruction creates ISK for the eve economy in the form of ship insurance. The ISK may have disappeared from your wallet when you buy a ship, but that ISK is merely transferred to another person's wallet (with a small portion paid in taxes etc.) Wrong the insurance barely covers the value from a ship and the modules have a 50% drop chance. So The difference between insurance payout and actual value is ISK destroyed. Same goes for modules cause if they dont drop from the wreck then the ISK is aswell gone.
This is incorrect, Dustwaffle is right.
Modules which are dropped don't matter at all and is just destruction of materials, not isk. The fact that the insurance is crap doesn't matter. it's still money coming into the game, materials out of the game.
You've 'lost' the isk for a ship and it's modules as soon as you bought them. It's now residing in the sellers wallet. It has however not left the game (only some minute amount of taxes left the game). When you blow up and receive insurance, it's just another isk faucet and mineral sink. |
steadyhand amarr
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1175
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:23:00 -
[50] - Quote
its more of the fact that EvE could lock dust players out of the market by over priceing everything or worse, the EvE market collapses for some reasion, and it can happen as you can just look at the real world markets seeming unimportant events can screw the whole thing up.
but personally i say, have newb gear at a base price and they everything up being built and sold by EvE guys the markets will always sort themselves out |
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THUNDERGROOVE
ZionTCD
161
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:26:00 -
[51] - Quote
Amy Artic wrote:The exchange rate of Dust Isk and Eve Isk, Too easy to farm isk in Dust.
Also what are we gonna buy from Eve players? and what are they gonna buy from us? These are questions that CCP are probably asking themselves. IMHO we should be able to produce parts for ships and the ships themselves, and Eve players should be able to make dropsuits as well as weapons, it would allow free trade between the players of both games.
Anyway, for us to have have a functioning economy with the EVE players we need to be able to mine and manufacture stuff the EVE players want, and visa versa, and atm it is not implemented in any way.
Trading between Dust players though, this I see coming sooner.
Have a "hanger" infrastructure that can produce ship parts that can be sold to EVE pilots for more than the ISK you get from a production facility but you have to go out of your way to find someone to purchase it.
Obviously, this idea has quite a few flaws but that's not really the point, and I believe that many people in EVE are just overlooking the potential in Dust when it comes to making ISK because our ISK is goes further in the game. It doesn't usually cost me more than 500K ISK to run my best gear in a PC match and that is chump change for an EVE pilot. |
George Moros
WarRavens League of Infamy
71
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 18:42:00 -
[52] - Quote
steadyhand amarr wrote:its more of the fact that EvE could lock dust players out of the market by over priceing everything or worse, the EvE market collapses for some reasion, and it can happen as you can just look at the real world markets seeming unimportant events can screw the whole thing up.
This scenario is not impossible, but it is very, very unlikely. EVE's economy is pure liberal capitalism. It would take a combined agreement of every EVE trader/industrialist for such a scenario to happen. The only way this would be feasible is if CCP is dumb enough to make the production of DUST stuff based on some highly localized and rare material (such as high-end moon goo used for EVE's tech 2 industry). That way some EVE power-bloc might gain full control over the resource and consequently, control the prices. However, I think CCP learned their lesson long ago with regard to such matters.
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Akdhar Saif
CybinSect
49
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 09:54:00 -
[53] - Quote
If we had some ISK sinks in Dust other than battles, an economy merge may be more likely. Maybe suit/vehicle cosmetic customisation. |
Nomed Deeps
The Exemplars Top Men.
216
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:32:00 -
[54] - Quote
Quote:If we had some ISK sinks in Dust other than battles There's been talk for a while about corps paying for their own MCCs, RDVs, and such bigger vehicles and equipment for more of an "ISK sink" but who knows when that will ever happen. |
Sylwester Dziewiecki
Beyond Hypothetical Box
158
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 20:37:00 -
[55] - Quote
Nomed Deeps wrote:We've had the following discussion on my alliance's forum and no one has found a good reason to keep the economies separate at this point: Quote:As the DUST economy is somewhat effed right now with EoN teaming up a huge group of outstanding players in DUST to ISK farm Molden Heath and a lot of players having tens to hundreds of millions of their own ISK saved from pubs alone, why not just go ahead and merge the economies? What's the worst that could happen? Dust ISK exploit of course. |
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