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Nomed Deeps
The Exemplars
Top Men.
213
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Posted - 2013.08.29 16:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
We've had the following discussion on my alliance's forum and no one has found a good reason to keep the economies separate at this point:
Quote:As the DUST economy is somewhat effed right now with EoN teaming up a huge group of outstanding players in DUST to ISK farm Molden Heath and a lot of players having tens to hundreds of millions of their own ISK saved from pubs alone, why not just go ahead and merge the economies? What's the worst that could happen? |
HandOGod
Taints of Tartarus
106
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Posted - 2013.08.29 16:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Don't you watch TV's or Movies?
never end a statement with "What's the worst that could happen?"
it's like being a slutty girl in a horror movie. Yeah, I understand why it's there, but it's not going to end well. |
Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
611
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Posted - 2013.08.29 16:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Honestly, when EvE and Dust do Merge I want the differnce between a corp having EvE support and a corp without to be noticeable to say the least! |
Nomed Deeps
The Exemplars
Top Men.
213
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Posted - 2013.08.29 16:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Quote:when EvE and Dust do Merge I want the differnce between a corp having EvE support and a corp without to be noticeable to say the least!
Shouldn't merging economies between games be one of the first steps of merging the two games though? |
Coleman Gray
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
611
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Posted - 2013.08.29 16:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Nomed Deeps wrote:Quote:when EvE and Dust do Merge I want the differnce between a corp having EvE support and a corp without to be noticeable to say the least! Shouldn't merging economies between games be one of the first steps of merging the two games though?
But in what way? problem is..what does Dust have to offer the EvE community? |
Sgt Kirk
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
1368
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Posted - 2013.08.29 16:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:Nomed Deeps wrote:Quote:when EvE and Dust do Merge I want the differnce between a corp having EvE support and a corp without to be noticeable to say the least! Shouldn't merging economies between games be one of the first steps of merging the two games though? But in what way? problem is..what does Dust have to offer the EvE community?
Approximately .08% of our actions affect EVE. |
Nomed Deeps
The Exemplars
Top Men.
213
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Posted - 2013.08.29 16:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:But in what way? problem is..what does Dust have to offer the EvE community?
Truthfully, nothing as of right now but how is that ever going to change with economies that will remain separate? |
Amy Artic
Binary Mercs
3
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Posted - 2013.08.29 16:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
The exchange rate of Dust Isk and Eve Isk, Too easy to farm isk in Dust.
Also what are we gonna buy from Eve players? and what are they gonna buy from us? These are questions that CCP are probably asking themselves. IMHO we should be able to produce parts for ships and the ships themselves, and Eve players should be able to make dropsuits as well as weapons, it would allow free trade between the players of both games.
Anyway for us to have have a functioning economy with the EVE players we need to be able to mine and manufacture stuff the EVE players want, and visa versa, and atm it is not implemented in any way.
Trading between Dust players though, this I see coming sooner. |
Sergamon Draco
Rautaleijona
Top Men.
95
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Posted - 2013.08.29 16:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:Nomed Deeps wrote:Quote:when EvE and Dust do Merge I want the differnce between a corp having EvE support and a corp without to be noticeable to say the least! Shouldn't merging economies between games be one of the first steps of merging the two games though? But in what way? problem is..what does Dust have to offer the EvE community?
Another question is what eve community have to offer to dusters? And know what i bet the eve players fear that day when dusters start shooting them and blasting spaceships |
Denak Kalamari
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
390
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Posted - 2013.08.29 17:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
The most simple answer I can give to that question, aside the fact that there's nothing for either party to purchase really, is the fact that even the riches DUST corps have pocket money when compared to the huge nullsec alliances. As soon as the market would become open for EVE players, they would very quickly drive the prices up which would lead into everything costing millions of ISK a piece.
That's what I speculate though. |
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Dante Vento
Firefly Shipping co.
20
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Posted - 2013.08.29 17:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Amy Artic wrote:Too easy to farm isk in Dust.
You've got that backwards. It's easy to farm tens of millions of isk in a couple of hours in Eve. Dust requires us to play and grind.....except for those with PC districts.
As for the exchange rate, that's a simple program so the ISK values can line up.
What can Eve offer dust players? How about BPC for super cheap. They already have the ability to manufacture Dust mods, equipment, suits, vehicles.
Looks like there still aren't any good answers. |
Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
63
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Posted - 2013.08.29 17:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
The idea was that eve pilots would produce everything that exist in dust. And we buy it from them. There was aswell the discussion of ISk transfer between both games and it actually worked (though this was not intended at that point). We had dust billionaires in the beta. So yes ISk transfer does work but the devs flipped a switch to prevent this due to the non existant ecconomy in dust. You can expect that the prices for your gear will increase MASSIVE when we get the player market. Cause in eve there wont be stuff avaible to buy from NPC's like we do now (apart from AUR/militia gear). If you would ask me what to produce on eve i would say this:
-AR's from STD-PRO
-Shield extenders
-nanohives
-Caldari basic frames STD-PRO
-Heavy suits
Now you might throw in "you should make tanks! they cost so much you would be very rich!". Wrong cause infantry gear will allways be more consumed then vehicles. |
CHIPMINT BUTTERCUP
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
94
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Posted - 2013.08.29 17:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
EVE players not wanting DUST players F-ing up their Spaceship game is what the hold up is. |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom
Renegade Alliance
379
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Posted - 2013.08.29 17:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
because the hundreds of thousands of dollars (or whatever monetary system you use) are not something to be taken lightly. |
God Hates Lags
Red Star.
EoN.
49
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Posted - 2013.08.29 18:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:
But in what way? problem is..what does Dust have to offer the EvE community?
Right now Faction Warfare battles drastically effect the rate of FW system capture and are acknowledged to be a huge deal in the Eve faction warfare world. I imagine lots of pilots would be paying mercs to fight for one side or another. |
Kage Roth
Wolf-Monkey Bastards
42
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Posted - 2013.08.29 18:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
The big difference is this. I have 28mil on my dust toon, which for a dust toon is plenty. Not amazing, but more than enough to get by.
On my EVE toon I can make that in an hour or two, depending on how lazy I am being. |
Nomed Deeps
The Exemplars
Top Men.
214
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Posted - 2013.08.29 18:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
Quote:The big difference is this. I have 28mil on my dust toon, which for a dust toon is plenty. Not amazing, but more than enough to get by.
On my EVE toon I can make that in an hour or two, depending on how lazy I am being.
So?
ISK is not really hard to come by in DUST at the moment either. I know several players that give away millions they earned from pubs simply because they have plenty to spare. |
Poonmunch
Sanguis Defense Syndicate
231
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Posted - 2013.08.29 18:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:
Approximately .08% of our actions affect EVE.
That much?
You are generous.
I think that might be an overestimate by several orders of magnitude.
Munch |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
1316
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 18:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
dust has no PVE so it is sinkhole while EVE as has a very low risk of any loss and has a massed a lot of ISK and worth while dust has a very solid check of ISK in to ISK out and adding the mass amount of easy grind ISK from EVE to dust will destroy worth in dust.
so in a sense dust has no "easy way" to get ISK while in EVE they are very little ways to actually lose any ISK with plenty of ways to grind for ISK. |
demonkiller 12
Seraphim Auxiliaries
143
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Posted - 2013.08.29 18:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Amy Artic wrote:The exchange rate of Dust Isk and Eve Isk, Too easy to farm isk in Dust.
Also what are we gonna buy from Eve players? and what are they gonna buy from us? These are questions that CCP are probably asking themselves. IMHO we should be able to produce parts for ships and the ships themselves, and Eve players should be able to make dropsuits as well as weapons, it would allow free trade between the players of both games.
Anyway, for us to have have a functioning economy with the EVE players we need to be able to mine and manufacture stuff the EVE players want, and visa versa, and atm it is not implemented in any way.
Trading between Dust players though, this I see coming sooner.
EVE players already can manufacture ground equipment, you can search the BPOs of weapon/mods/vehicles/suits on the market
And we already take part in PI |
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Severus Smith
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
Caldari State
280
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Posted - 2013.08.29 18:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Because for $15 I can buy a PLEX (Pilot's License Extension) and sell it for ~ 500,000,000 ISK. That's enough for me to run 2000x full Proto suits at 250,000 ISK each.
And that's just me being lazy and paying for it. I know people in EVE who have hundreds of billions of ISK in assets sitting around. It would cause inflation, or Proto spam, on a horribly huge scale.
What would be cool is if there were separate currencies. Interstellar Kredits (ISK) and Planetary Kredits (PK) with a fluctuating exchange rate. So a Proto Assault Rifle may only be 75,000 PK or 7.5 million ISK. Then people can hedge on future exchange rates like we do in RL with the dollar vs the euro vs the yen.
Just make the reason that, since our contracts are on planets, we, under interstellar trade law, must be compensated with the proper "planetary" currency which is PK. |
Nomed Deeps
The Exemplars
Top Men.
214
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 18:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
Quote:dust has a very solid check of ISK in to ISK out and adding the mass amount of easy grind ISK from EVE to dust will destroy worth in dust.
My first post was intending to prove the little worth of ISK currently in DUST, especially to the likes of EoN. ISK in DUST may be scarce to new and a few bad budgeting players, but a lot (especially vets who have been around a while) have plenty of ISK to spare. I alone have 200M ISK in my personal bank from pubs and a little bit of PC and that's after giving away millions and wasting millions more on assault dropships and the like. |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
1316
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 18:56:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nomed Deeps wrote:Quote:dust has a very solid check of ISK in to ISK out and adding the mass amount of easy grind ISK from EVE to dust will destroy worth in dust. My first post was intending to prove the little worth of ISK currently in DUST, especially to the likes of EoN. ISK in DUST may be scarce to new and a few bad budgeting players, but a lot (especially vets who have been around a while) have plenty of ISK to spare. I alone have 200M ISK in my personal bank from pubs and a little bit of PC and that's after giving away millions and wasting millions more on assault dropships and the like.
well they had a solid check... the kindof broke it with uprising and PC is well just broke. vehicles became less useful and cost more while infantry became even cheaper to run. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
1296
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nomed Deeps wrote:We've had the following discussion on my alliance's forum and no one has found a good reason to keep the economies separate at this point: Quote:As the DUST economy is somewhat effed right now with EoN teaming up a huge group of outstanding players in DUST to ISK farm Molden Heath and a lot of players having tens to hundreds of millions of their own ISK saved from pubs alone, why not just go ahead and merge the economies? What's the worst that could happen?
If it's just isk, then we'll be faced with massive inflation as the hundreds of millions at the disposal of Eve players enters into Dust's economy.
If it's more than isk, then we're faced with a disparity between the approximate real world price of isk in Dust and in Eve.
I don't know much about Eve, but I know there's a fairly straightforward way to convert real money to isk, and doing so in Eve nets you far more isk than Dust does. |
ReGnYuM
TeamPlayers
EoN.
806
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Oh Gawd not this again
Seriously, almost every roundtable at Fanfest always ended with merging the economies or mining.Luckly CCP also made quite clear that either is not going to happen for a while.
Eve Integration needs to first and foremost focus on battle support: OBs, sending in drones, Logistics, scouting... etc. Only once a strong foundation is formed, should CCP move on to economy and other things.
Lord of General Discussion
Winner of Closed Beta Tester Tournament
Winner of Eve/Dust 514 PvP Fanfest Tournament
KDR > EVERYTHING |
Goric Rumis
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
213
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 19:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
The best answer: Because the Ph.D. economist who oversees the EVE economy as his full-time job needs to be comfortable with the impact of merging the two economies before they do so.
Three more specific answers off the top of my head (you may be sure there are more issues than these):
(1) NPC item purchases are still a fact of life in DUST. Prior to merging the economies, there needs to be an understanding of how items that are currently purchased at fixed prices will become items that are produced, bought and sold by players.
(2) Inflow and outflow of cash through the DUST economy is radically different from EVE. The way we are rewarded after battles needs to be scaled and potentially reworked depending on how much additional ISK will be brought into the economy versus the amount that will be destroyed.
(3) ISK needs to be valued at roughly the same amount in DUST vs. EVE. This is really tricky to do because you have to value it based on player behavior, as there aren't any resource overlaps. When players on both sides treat ISK as though it has the same value to them, then we're close to parity and you're less likely to see a drastic devaluation of ISK on one side or the other. |
Magnus Amadeuss
DUST University
Ivy League
10
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Posted - 2013.08.29 19:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
All of the items show in eve, they just are not purchasable.
Actually CCP can keep the costs of suits relatively the same based upon what the build requirements are, as there are plenty of modules in eve that cost nearly nothing to produce.
Oh and they do need to keep dust/eve isk seperate for now. I have 10+ bil isk myself just sitting around in eve. Now in eve this is by no means an astronomical amount, in dust it would mean unlimited everything just about.
CCP has a bit of a pickle here but i see a few options, all of which have downsides.
1) increase payouts and module cost by an order of magnitude.
Do they really want a dropsuit to cost as much as a frigate though? I suspect not, though this would not bother me in the least. Just as melee does more damage than a round from a plasma rifle, this would be a decision based in game balancing rather than fiction integrity.
2)Keep the isk seperate
This means the two economies can never really merge, as anyone with an eve connection will always have an insurmountable advantage. I could just buy the suit/module BPOs and produce an unlimited amount of items for my dust friends for free.
3)Tax isk
While this will protect the dust economy from the riches of eve, it will provide nearly no incentive for the citizens of eve to participate in dust economies. The only reason why Eve citizens would want to interact with dusties would be out of necessity rather than emergent gameplay.
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
EoN.
1921
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Posted - 2013.08.29 19:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
Before we merge economies, there needs to be something worth buying on both sides.
Right now merging economies will only be worthwhile insofar as to funnel EVE ISK into Dust. |
cranium79
ZionTCD
60
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Posted - 2013.08.29 19:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
as of right now, the economies don't NEED to be merged. that is why they are not. the whole thing about "inflation" and "proto spam" are missing the point a bit. they are valid, but only when you look at Dust in its current form. this is why...
as of right now, it's dust vs. dust in PC. we only have 1 system to fight in. i'm not even sure if MH effects EVE at all? does it (someone please answer)? even if it does effect Eve, it's very small. dust corps front the isk and dust corps own the districts.
when there is no PC for a merc, we fight pubs. i look at pubs as more of a "training ground" rather than anything of any real importance. it makes me isk and sp when i don't have PC and allows me to practice and try different fits out. when all systems are unlocked and we are fighting for Eve corps, pubs will be nothing more than noob training grounds. no one will fight pubs when there are CONSTANT Eve contracts to fight for and CONSTANT planets/districts to fight for.
when dust mercs are able to fight on ALL systems for Eve then the market merge will be necessary. clone packs and equipment for these battles will cost billions of isk which is what the Eve corps are paying for. Eve corps are going to own the planets. NOT dust corps. there will NEVER be a dust corp able to contest for a planet over any Eve corp. dust corps just don't have the isk or resources (ability to hire ringers to fight battles) to own a planet after all systems are unlocked.
after full integration, the dust corp will only have 1 real isk responsibility. it will need to fund and equip it's mercs. eve will take care of the rest. this will curb "inflation". since eve is paying for it, there will be no inflation. so what if an eve corp gives a dust corp 1 billion isk. after all essential are purchased for the battle, a large chunk will be gone. do the math, how much does the max amount of clone packs + transport + merc equipment (weapons, suits, modules, vehicles) cost for 1 battle? right now the dust corp only sees the purchase of the clones and transport of the clones. if the dust corp WANTS to, it will reimburse it's mercs for the assets they lose, but not all do. i'm sure it costs several hundred million isk for 1 battle. do that a couple of times a DAY and see how long that 1 billion isk will last.
proto spam is a problem in pubs right now not because of isk, but because there is little alternative for mercs with isk to burn. as i said before, after all systems are unlocked, only noobs will play pubs (if they are still available  ). proto suits will go where they belong... in PC. eve funded PC.
the MAIN goal of this game is PC. NOT pubs. PC costs isk. equipment, clone packs, transport of clones, etc... eve will provide the isk. in a raging battle, a merc can lose 1M isk or more with proto gear (more so if you run vehicles). say we only earn 1M isk/merc for the match. where does our compensation come from? where it is supposed to come from. our dust corp. where does our dust corp get its isk? from the eve corp that hired it.
we are going to be at eve's beck and call. i can imagine 1 eve corp contracting several dust corps to do it's bidding. that way there will always be plenty of mercs online for a battle. unlike now when some corps are having trouble filling a battle roster at certain times of the day. i mean, if you only have 300-500 people in your corp and only 10-20 are active at any given time, and you have 3-4 battles scheduled over the day, it gets difficult to fill a roster (especially at odd times like 3am easter time). people will feel (and have felt) like it's a JOB rather than a game. an eve corps having 5 dust corps under contract will have 1500-2500 mercs under contract with 50-100 online at any given time. that is plenty to fill several rosters.
this is the point of this game. when it happens, it will be great. it will be fun. people can fight the battles they are available for rather than feeling obligated to stay online to fill a roster. i believe that this is the end goal for the developers and so it is the end goal for dust.
who knows, i could be totally wrong. oh, and sorry for getting repetitive at some points, but i need to in order to get my point across. |
echo47
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
43
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Posted - 2013.08.29 20:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
Severus Smith wrote:Because for $15 I can buy a PLEX (Pilot's License Extension) and sell it for ~ 500,000,000 ISK. That's enough for me to run 2000x full Proto suits at 250,000 ISK each.
And that's just me being lazy and paying for it. I know people in EVE who have hundreds of billions of ISK in assets sitting around. It would cause inflation, or Proto spam, on a horribly huge scale.
What would be cool is if there were separate currencies. Interstellar Kredits (ISK) and Planetary Kredits (PK) with a fluctuating exchange rate. So a Proto Assault Rifle may only be 75,000 PK or 7.5 million ISK. Then people can hedge on future exchange rates like we do in RL with the dollar vs the euro vs the yen.
Just make the reason that, since our contracts are on planets, we, under interstellar trade law, must be compensated with the proper "planetary" currency which is PK.
Best idea regarding the economies of EVE and DUST I have read on these forums. |
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