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Observations on scan radius, chevrons, etc

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Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2013.08.27 04:49:00 - [1] - Quote This started off as a reply to https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=103165 but I'm getting detailed enough that this is probably going to be an ongoing thing. I'll be editing this thing from time to time as I get more info. I'm going to write about my observations on when chevrons, etc. appear, and potential influence factors thereof. ----------------------- Redberry scanning seems to some degree dependant on weapon. Initial observations, based on targetting blue and red mcc, using a BRAND NEW TEST CHAR(so 0 SP in anything). (Caldari. no precision or range enhancements are default either). First tests revolve around getting that light-blue details text in the bottom/center of your screen. I'm going to call this the detailed scan Limit on detailed scan range for militia sniper rifle, both scoped, and non-scoped, is 599 m, when fitted to a freebie default "sniper". Interestingly, this is with, or without scope. Targetting enemy MCC. If you can get a target (blue or red) it in center of your screen, IE target area, , you will get basic shield/armor/range info out of it, appearing in in that blue text near the bottom of your screen Get it in SCOPE, or weapon single-pixel hotspot, and you should get its name in your tactical readout in that section. Switching to submachinegun(milita SMB), does not give the bluetext target info readout at same distance. Not even the most basic. (though of course you can still see the hp/shield info in the HUD display marker right on top of both of them) Nor at 399. or 299m. Further experimentation on blue targets, says it wont even register for 199m Effective detailed scan range for militia SMB, with ADS or without, is a pathetic 124m Note also, that you have to actually get the precise target point of your weapon on the object, or it wont work. More experiments: Red turret at 300+m There was no regular HUD with the red armor/shield things, by default, reguardless of weapon equipped, if I was only looking vaguely in its direction. When I got the weapon hotspot "close enough",it lit up with red markings, reguardless of weapon Interestingly, it seemed to be the exact same weapon hotspot distance, for both SMG and sniper rifle. Reguardless of aim-down-sight or not. Still no DETAILS in blue text from the SMG. but it did actually light it up with the red target. Sniper of course had the detailed scan info. When you're scoped in with the sniper rifle and have the hotspot close enough for red HUD info, it LOOKS like the hotspot is further away than the SMB needed to be. However, when I looked out of scope again, it turned out to be the same distance. Enemy militia sniper @250m Now here's where it starts to get really interesting. Initially: no bars, no chevron ; NOTHING. but when I got the weapon hotspot close enough, he lit up. For both of them.... SOMETIMES. That is to say: the SMG sometimes lit hit up with the chevron, etc, when hotspot got close. But.. sometimes it did not!! Whereas the sniper rifle, always lit him up when hotspot was within equivalent distance of the scope's round reticule. THEORY Unproven, but... I think the guy moved around a little. Which means... "noise" may actually increase your db output, and trigger highlighting when at edge of an enemy scan precision? And/or, echo from the weapon fire may have made it pick up more from the SMB? Guess I need to find an obliging enemy sniper who will sit still for me at 350m, for more info :) (but it's sooo hard not to "reach out and touch someone"... sigh... Apologies to AT&T)
hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 243	Posted - 2013.08.27 04:54:00 - [2] - Quote *SMG
DeadlyAztec11 Red Star Jr. EoN. 2028	Posted - 2013.08.27 05:04:00 - [3] - Quote Scanning is random as anything.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2013.08.27 05:07:00 - [4] - Quote Meh. fixed SMB -> SMG. as far as "scanning is random"... I think its more complex than most people realize. Which can APPEAR random, but isnt. I've hit this uncountable times as a programmer. where the program was acting "randomly", but it was due to a very specific, single issue. The main question in this case, is whether its a DELIBERATE thing, or an accident More experiments: I think I got a randomly running around redberry at 350-ish meters, to light up with the red style hud. I now need to find a cooperative sniper who will stay put, while I completely change out weapons to do more experiments. To see if just having the sniper rifle on you, may have an effect.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2013.08.27 06:04:00 - [5] - Quote ookay i gotta get some SLEEP rather than testing this more tonight :-} Didnt find my chevron redberry tonight. I have a few more theories to test out, but even if they dont pan out,t here's still this: Even if it doesnt matter which weapon you are using, for weapon hotspot detection of enemies: The scope of a sniper rifle makes it much, much easier to cover remote territory carefully, making sure not to miss any spots. Reminder to self: test at what precise range, enemy turrets go from no-HUD to red HUD. reequip with precision boosting module, and see if that range changes. Also attempt to measure scoped "minutes of arc" for HUD fade in, at closest no-HUD distance, vs 100m back.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 14	Posted - 2013.08.27 07:03:00 - [6] - Quote Bah. who could sleep when there's important stuff like this going on?? :D Part of my prior data was flawed. It suffered from residual scan benefit. Turns out, if you get a red highlight with a long range weapon such as sniper rifle, then switch to shorter range one.. HUD redmarker will stay, for as long as you keep it red. Kinda like a swarm lock? Latest test results, @390m, on an enemy heavy suit. He was on top of a building, no marker on him. First, I equipped militia sniper. found him via scope, and noted that as usual, the red HUD marker came up, when he was within the main circle of my reticule. That amounted to basically the height of the building. Took the scope view off. Noted that if I kept my no-scope sniper basically pointed at that building, it would pick him up on red-marker HUD. Did a quick-switch to SMG. Noted that if I kept the hotspot on that building, red marker stayed. If I quickly moved it off, and it went away, but then moved it back quickly... it came back. HOWEVER. If I lost "target lock", as it were, for lets say 2 seconds.. SMG sights would not bring it back, at 390m. I could be pointing them at the building. I could be pointing them right at the TOP of the building. No go. Only when I switched back to sniper did it come back, and it came back immediately (no scope, even) The heavy sniper was so incredibly useful to point out this study, I thanked him, by retiring him so he could have a much needed rest Sad thing is, the dumb guy was so overly focused, I emptied an entire militia sniper clip into him, reloaded, and had to finish him off with the 4th shot. He still didnt really move. Ah, actually, most likely since I was nicely out of weapon sound range, he had no idea he was being hit, if he was focusing on someone else. The importance of sniping from over 200m away, while there are no suppressors available.
Yan Darn DUST University Ivy League 31	Posted - 2013.08.27 07:12:00 - [7] - Quote Useful stuff thanks. At least somebody is investigating anyway - I'm pretty much in the camp that passive scanning makes no sense, which is a shame as a Gallente scout. Anyway, maybe when the new patch comes it will make study a little simpler...
Quill Killian Better Hide R Die 249	Posted - 2013.08.27 07:16:00 - [8] - Quote Quil Evrything is my brother.
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 125	Posted - 2013.08.27 07:20:00 - [9] - Quote You would think, maybe.... CCP would tell us how it's meant to work??? Yeah right...
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 524	Posted - 2013.08.27 07:44:00 - [10] - Quote CCP has said the scan profile and range is separate from chevron the showing up when target is aimed at. The range you get chevron when aiming at is suppose to be the absolute max range of the weapon. 599m for sniper and rails 300m for forge 250m ar and scrambler rifle 125m for most sidearms and hmg. So, either the smg max range is longer then ccp said, or it is a bug, or somebody else looked at the sniper within their max range at that moment by chance. The scan range, dampener, and scan strength skills and mods should only affect the scan in radius around player. They also only measure horizontally and ignore the vertical part of range. Sensor area is a cylinder with radius a scan radius that if as high as the map is, so sniper 150m up and 5m to left is within 10m radius. It is possible the weapon aiming uses horizontal distance only, like the sensor radius, while the weapon range info shows the actual distance.

Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 14	Posted - 2013.08.27 07:56:00 - [11] - Quote SPecific DB observations here. Will edit as I get a chance to update more data. Readings done with militia sniper, generic suit no mods. Large blaster installation @475: no red chevron. Even when SCOPED, just has hotspot turn red! However, still gives "detailed scan:" info in blue text Gives red HUD display when hotspotted @299m (interesting. From a certain angle, only gives reddot at "neck". Weak point? of installation?) SMG @299 does not even give red dot!! Only gives "permaHUD" display, when within 99m. I think that's basically when true "passive scan" picks it up. That's the maximum range of your mini-map radar anyways. Large missile installation @5xx. When hotspotted with scope, gives full red-bar info. So large missiles are more "noisy" than large blasters? Even an SMG hotspot can give the red HUD stuff @512m. But not reddot. (so presumably, red dot means "effective range")
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 14	Posted - 2013.08.27 08:01:00 - [12] - Quote Ten-Sidhe wrote: CCP has said the scan profile and range is separate from chevron the showing up when target is aimed at. The range you get chevron when aiming at is suppose to be the absolute max range of the weapon. 599m for sniper and rails 300m for forge 250m ar and scrambler rifle 125m for most sidearms and hmg. Thanks for posting that. However... it's wrong, or at least incomplete. (or perhaps out of date) I'm kinda skewing things, by doing measurements against installations. Methinks "the rules" may be signifiantly different for them. Also.. (a person at CCP), is not neccessarily the same thing as "the guy who worked on that specific area of code". Having worked on a programming team, i can tell you that, even though most developers will know more than the average player about how things really work... not all developers will know how things REALLY work. Developers tend to have particular areas of code that they are experts at, and other areas that they are less knowlegable about. Devs may "explain" something to other devs, but leave out some of the complexity. In a similar fashion, Devs may "explain" something in a public post, but leave out some of the complexity ;)
dustwaffle Gravity Prone EoN. 344	Posted - 2013.08.27 10:29:00 - [13] - Quote Quill Killian wrote: Quil Evrything is my brother. Brother from another mother? (Same first names, different last names) EDIT: nvm fail joke is fail :D
TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR The Kaos Legion 11	Posted - 2013.08.27 11:32:00 - [14] - Quote i never thought about scanning to be so complex. i'll be coming back to this to see what you figure out. by the way, how's it been going with your nova knives?
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 15	Posted - 2013.08.27 14:10:00 - [15] - Quote Oh yeah. There's all kinds of fancy stuff involved. For example, if a unit goes behind a hill. You can KIND of see it... when it's near the top. But as it goes down the hill, and more of it is in the way, the signal slowly fuzzes out, so to speak. Some people may think it is a "bug", but it isnt. The game knows you dont have line-of-sight. You can't get the "detailed scan" bluetext on a unit behind a hill. As far as knives go... I think theyre on my backburner for now. I figure i need to skill them up more before I actually use them again... and I need to help my son build up SP for logistics suit, so he can be a better medic. He decided he wants to play, but he'd rather heal people than shoot them. I'm very proud of him :)
Beren Hurin The Vanguardians 1250	Posted - 2013.08.27 14:20:00 - [16] - Quote Hypothesis: Target intel possibilities could relate to the magnification level of the weapon's ADS rather than the maximum range of the weapon. To test this, use the SR scope on targets like you were with the sniper rifle.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster 816	Posted - 2013.08.27 14:35:00 - [17] - Quote Interesting stuff. I noticed this myself when switching from a SMG to shotgun, its almost impossible to get any info outside of 10 meters when ADS with a shotty but when you switch to a SMG it works the same when you posted it does.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 15	Posted - 2013.08.27 17:04:00 - [18] - Quote Placeholder. edit coming soon
TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR The Kaos Legion 13	Posted - 2013.08.27 19:01:00 - [19] - Quote i also noticed that with nova knives you can't get any info on a person outside 1 or 2 meters. will you really base your fit on the gun with the best scan radius? i suppose it depends on what you plan on doing. whether it be sniping or assault or whatever. And i'm proud of your son as well. not many people will go full logibro. it'll be nice if i can squad up with him sometime.
Niuvo The Phoenix Federation 418	Posted - 2013.08.27 19:39:00 - [20] - Quote I've noticed a red text that read "Scan attempt prevented" I wonder what that means.

Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 19	Posted - 2013.08.27 20:46:00 - [21] - Quote scan attempt prevented? ! nice! I guess the new patches are in. Bw, this is a bump to point out to people that I updated my 1st post, and also post .. erm.. 18? with important info The main thing is my updated THEORY section
Niuvo The Phoenix Federation 418	Posted - 2013.08.27 22:48:00 - [22] - Quote This has happened only twice a while back. I wasn't using AS, just read the text. I tend to be picking up people quite effectively, only problem is when one guy spots me, ofcourse that is to change in 1.4.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 21	Posted - 2013.08.30 06:09:00 - [23] - Quote Some results from dual-box testing. Only tests so far are limited. Short runs of: Assault - Medic (freebie caldari) wielding militia submachine gun, no mods vs Scount G-1 (Gallente tier I scout suit) wielding militia shotgun, no mods (oh wait. but that char might have a '1' in dampening skill. Will confirm another time) My limited testing says: Normal field of vision is 45degrees left and right of aim-dot, to about 75m When within that forward cone, both suits light up to each other. However, scout suit only gets chevron between 60-75m or something like that. Additionally, lighting them up on the HUD, also lights them up on your radar. OUTSIDE that field of vision... it's ye olde "passive scan" stats. The freebie suit shows up on radar, when it gets within 10 meters However... the scout suit is invisible to the passive scan radar of the freebie suit radar. WITHOUT any dampeners. WHen I have lots more time, I'll try to do more specific experiments. but now it's bedtime :)
Yan Darn DUST University Ivy League 38	Posted - 2013.08.30 07:20:00 - [24] - Quote Niuvo wrote: This has happened only twice a while back. I wasn't using AS, just read the text. I tend to be picking up people quite effectively, only problem is when one guy spots me, ofcourse that is to change in 1.4. Is this not what happens when someone attempts to scan you, but fails getting the 'some margin of error' message. So instead of getting the 'you have been scanned' text you get 'scan attempt prevented?'.
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 129	Posted - 2013.08.30 11:39:00 - [25] - Quote Yan Darn wrote: Niuvo wrote: This has happened only twice a while back. I wasn't using AS, just read the text. I tend to be picking up people quite effectively, only problem is when one guy spots me, ofcourse that is to change in 1.4. Is this not what happens when someone attempts to scan you, but fails getting the 'some margin of error' message. So instead of getting the 'you have been scanned' text you get 'scan attempt prevented?'. You are correct.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 26	Posted - 2013.08.30 15:40:00 - [26] - Quote Experiments... chars with no passive scan inherit skill investments. WaitWhut? Militia gallente light dropsuit, and gallente official "light" suit, have same stats. However, gallente light, is better. Back-to-back, the official one was picking up the militia one, but not vice versa. Maybe I messed up something though. Note, however, that even a militia light, is not picked up from behind, by a regular default dropsuit, if I recall correctly. On the range front, passive scans were extended to a "huge" (haha) 15m radius when 2xmilitia range modules were added. So, thats true enough. 25% (of base) range added. Thta means that even if you buff out for "complex range amplifiers, its a bit "meh", unless you plan to invest in at least 2 modules. But then again, the required dropsuit skill will add another.. 50%? So potentially 25m passive scan radius? That sounds kindasorta useful. On the frontal, built-in-weapon-activescan front... having a sniper rifle and SMG equipped on same char, frontal scans were the same. For enemy within frontal visual cone: Within 35(?)m, HUD shows you chevron and health bars. Within 75(?)m, HUD shows you just chevron
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 28	Posted - 2013.09.01 05:51:00 - [27] - Quote btw, my thoughts on CCP "fixing" this sort of thing... their proposed "fix" of taking away group shared tac radar, makes no sense. IF they really want to improve it, they should make the weapon-sight ID capabilities match the normal range of the weapon. Not this odd semi-infinit thing i've observed so far.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 244	Posted - 2013.09.01 12:51:00 - [28] - Quote I didn't have the patience to read through your entire post so forgive me if these things have already been addressed. There are a couple of flaws with your theories: 1) Snipers can't currently render past ~450m, how can you validate the "scan" range of a sniper? I'll point out that the larger the vehicle the further away it can be seen and "lit up". In chromosome I could view details of installations at 850m+, I can't be sure but I would imagine that this would have stayed the same, as it seems to be an arbitrary thing to change 2) Snipers don't always light characters up at any range <599m. On numerous occasions I have targetted an opposing sniper and have been unable to bring a chevron up or view suit details. The only information confirming the player was the red reticle.
S Park Finner Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 224	Posted - 2013.09.01 13:35:00 - [29] - Quote 2100 Angels wrote: I didn't have the patience to read through your entire post so forgive me if these things have already been addressed. There are a couple of flaws with your theories: 1) Snipers can't currently render past ~450m, how can you validate the "scan" range of a sniper? I'll point out that the larger the vehicle the further away it can be seen and "lit up". In chromosome I could view details of installations at 850m+, I can't be sure but I would imagine that this would have stayed the same, as it seems to be an arbitrary thing to change 2) Snipers don't always light characters up at any range <599m. On numerous occasions I have targetted an opposing sniper and have been unable to bring a chevron up or view suit details. The only information confirming the player was the red reticle. FWIW this is my experience as well. As far as the impact of Aim-Down-Sight I'll recount an issue I encountered in a different game. I believe an earlier post referred to it but I'll give a little nerdier explanation. It had to do with the way ADS was implemented. In the computer code, the scope didn't really "magnify" the image. What happened was the image was drawn as though the player was closer to the target by whatever factor of magnification was being used. The bug was the imaginary distance of the scope rather than the actual distance of the player was being used for other calculations (like the origin point of fired rounds). It could be there is a similar complication going on with this code. With regard to popping up the chevron/detail information in seemingly random ways... This may be changed/improved with 1.4 because they are changing a lot about draw distance and weapon ranges. It may be that the visual clipping problems that snipers and (sometimes) turret gunners see has to do with the way the game tries to cut down on how many things it draws on the screen. At some distance, the code has to choose to draw a thing or not. For moving things (like players), small changes in distance could cause that code to jump back and forth between one choice and another. The result would be (for example) that sometimes you see the wall, sometimes you see the player. Even when you aren't looking at a moving object, your character may be moving a little bit. So you get the same effect. Really annoying, but if the code for deciding to put up a chevron or detail information has the same problem then sometimes it too would "see" the player and other times it would not. It is even more complicated if the information display code is different than the code that puts images on the screen. Add that "targeted" player chevrons have some persistence and you can see how there would be a whole slew of complicated interactions. That's a hard set of bugs to track down and squash. TL:DR Lots of moving parts in the game make tracking down these kinds of problems very hard.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 30	Posted - 2013.09.01 14:06:00 - [30] - Quote 2100 Angels wrote: 2) Snipers don't always light characters up at any range <599m. On numerous occasions I have targetted an opposing sniper and have been unable to bring a chevron up or view suit details. The only information confirming the player was the red reticle. You missed the bits that mention that my observations on range are for clear line of sight. When an object is partially obscured, it can mess with the lighting up. Thus, smart snipers position themselves behind partial cover, which makes them not light up as much, if at all.



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