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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1577
   |
Posted - 2013.08.20 18:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
Currently turrets rarely serve any tactical purpose due to being farmed/destroyed at the start of the game while in a natural state. Giving WP for destroying hostile deployed assets makes sense, allowing neutral/inactive assets to be destroyed is likewise fine but the ability for one player with a forge gun, rail gun etc. to farm 700 WP or more at the start of a match without engaging in any form of combat simply doesn't track (that total by the way is one from my testing, even using a stationary rail turret rather than a FG or HAV it is easy to pick up between 200-500 WP at the beginning of a match without leaving the red zone).
This behavior not only devalues the tactical import of turrets and other deployable structure assets but it also degrades team tactics/game pacing by causing a mad rush on spawn in. Rather than trying to get objectives hacked, uplinks deployed or fire lines set up many Mercs are trying to scoop those easy points causing a more sluggish start to matches.
Proposal: Simply cease granting War Point for the destruction of any neutral (i.e. white/yellow turrets/depots/CRUs). Leave all other mechanics, such as the ability to destroy them while neutral, and the ability to earn WP from destroying them while hostile, exactly as it currently stands.
0.02 ISK
Cross |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
1298
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Posted - 2013.08.20 18:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Couldn't agree more, even though I am one of the people who often grabs the nearest railgun to take out those installations for the easy WP - I reason that if I don't do it, someone else will and they deserve the WP no more than I do.
It makes no sense to reward people for destroying neutral structures of any kind. |
Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
204
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Posted - 2013.08.20 18:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Do installations fill *any* tactical role?
If it doesn't do anything it's ignored.
If it does something it's destroyed within 30 seconds.
I think they should just be removed. This will give the game a performance boost and help dropships a lot.
Installations should definitely return once we can call them down where we prefer them to be. Ideally we should also be able to fit them as we want.
P.S.: I will fit a speed tanked Minmatar missile installation.  |
Vitharr Foebane
Blood Money Mercenaries
22
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Posted - 2013.08.20 18:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Denying the enemy assets before they start shooting at your team is a completely viable tactic in my opinion. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
1299
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Posted - 2013.08.20 18:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:Do installations fill *any* tactical role? If it doesn't do anything it's ignored. If it does something it's destroyed within 30 seconds. I think they should just be removed. This will give the game a performance boost and help dropships a lot. Installations should definitely return once we can call them down where we prefer them to be. Ideally we should also be able to fit them as we want. P.S.: I will fit a speed tanked Minmatar missile installation.
Agreed - most installations are completely useless. Some are even behind walls or hills and have a view over absolutely nothing at all. There are a handful of good railgun or blaster turrets:
- Iron Delta and Spine Cresent - Railguns looking out from bases can often get good views across the whole battlefield to take out annoying dropships and tanks in open positions.
- Skim Junction - The hill railgun below the MCC can usually just about get shots on sniper tanks in the opposite redline but it's very difficult to see them because of the poor draw distance mechanics.
- Ashland - The blaster turret next to C has a great view over E and I've taken out dozens of people running across to B using it. However it's position is also it's weakness as it gets taken out very easily by swarms, forges or railguns and there's no way to save it once it's being fired upon.
- Line Harvest - The railgun on the (northern I think) hill under the MCC has a limited view but good aiming and timing can take out those pesky LAVs running around the back and you also have a direct view on the console for D.
- Manus Peak - With a few of the sockets you can get some really good views out across all 3 objectives but again they're so vulnerable and open that they'll be gone within seconds of someone getting some AV out. |
Zatara Rought
TeamPlayers
EoN.
865
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Posted - 2013.08.20 18:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
I couldn't agree more. +1 |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1580
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 18:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:Denying the enemy assets before they start shooting at your team is a completely viable tactic in my opinion.
But they're not denying the enemy anything. The assets taken out in this manner are those near (or even in) the friendly red zone that's being awarded WP for denying your team assets before they can start shooting at the enemy. |
Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
607
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Posted - 2013.08.20 19:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
I think you're exaggerating with the '700 WP' number. I think in a typical (full) match, even if you go directly for all the turrets with a FG or a tank or whatever, you'll only get about 300-400. That said I don't have any problem with reducing/removing the WP reward. I also don't think removing the WP reward would change player behavior too much, the only reason to do this is to take away the WP themselves from something people will do anyway. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1952
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Posted - 2013.08.20 19:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
I do this sometimes for easy WP. It amuses me that you can wind up the top scoring player in a game while investing a few minutes in installation destruction. I find if I DON'T, a rail tank quickly appears and does it instead (part of why many tankers often have high scores).
There's already a restriction of sorts on this - Swarm Launchers don't lock on neutral installations. Even if they didn't give points, I think people might still destroy them because there's that combination of boredom and "I can blow things up" that comes with tanks, etc. Much like the many things that probably deserve WP rewards, I can see why this is a cheap way to get them too. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
1299
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 19:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Oso Peresoso wrote:I think you're exaggerating with the '700 WP' number. I think in a typical (full) match, even if you go directly for all the turrets with a FG or a tank or whatever, you'll only get about 300-400. That said I don't have any problem with reducing/removing the WP reward. I also don't think removing the WP reward would change player behavior too much, the only reason to do this is to take away the WP themselves from something people will do anyway.
On Spine Cresent I regularly get 500WP within the 1st minute blowing turrets. On the lower built up socket you can get all 6 and then at least 3 more from D and E and that's 900WP without even leaving the ground spawn. |
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ladwar
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
1191
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Posted - 2013.08.20 19:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
how is it farming when there is only a limited number of installations on any map. its not like new installations come down for free rapidly after getting destroyed. i mean this is your whole bases for wanting to remove them. people repeatedly hacking installations is farming, destroying them is not farming, it is removing assets for tactical reason and warpoint gain is a tactical reason on top of removing future threats. btw most installations is the friendly redzone are not neutral but belong to your side.
btw i would still destroy them because blues never guard turrets. |
Nekrokult
Cariocecus Consilium
1
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Posted - 2013.08.20 21:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
HereGÇÖs an idea (considering Skirmish mainly): Installations (Turrets/CRU/Supply) donGÇÖt exist at all at start. What you have are hackable nodes. After a hack, you pick what type of structure should drop down (like OMS) on that node. After that, that installation can be destroyed or hacked like they are now. If destroyed, a cooldown period starts, after that cooldown the node becomes hackable again like in the start. This would allow a more strategic variety and a constantly changing battlefield.
On topic, I agree with WP removal on neutral installations. |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
414
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Posted - 2013.08.20 21:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
0wp for destroying neutral turrets. anything more and it will still be done whether it be 200wp or 3wp. WP is WP and if there is any early choice to get it people will try. The solution is 0wp for neutral installation destruction. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1590
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 21:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Oso Peresoso wrote:I think you're exaggerating with the '700 WP' number. I think in a typical (full) match, even if you go directly for all the turrets with a FG or a tank or whatever, you'll only get about 300-400. That said I don't have any problem with reducing/removing the WP reward. I also don't think removing the WP reward would change player behavior too much, the only reason to do this is to take away the WP themselves from something people will do anyway.
I am in fact, not exaggerating, but to be clear I am not claiming that 700 WP is the average, I'll clarify. On average from taking out assets from within the red line you're only likely to pull down between 200-500 WP depending on map, sockets, how quickly you grab a rail/forge/tank etc. that being said 700 WP from within the red line using just a rail turret to farm isn't even my best score (and this was without use of the defend order, that can push it even higher). Now to be clear the higher end of these scores usually include tagging something hostile as well, but even if you're talking the points from doing nothing except destroying nute installations you can get up there pretty quick. Lets consider an example with squad order;
From the red line at the start of the game a Merc destroyed 5 neutral assets while 'wearing' the defend order, a pretty common occurrence.
3 x Turrets (mixed types)
1 x CRU (guess we didn't need to spawn there  )
1 x Supply Depot (is 50 WP really more valuable?)
Total before squad order: 400 WP
Total after squad order: 480 WP
Total toward OB: 560 WP (for doing essentially nothing)
Now that's assuming that our test merc has only moved far enough to enter a ground spawn turret and hasn't taken any targets of opportunity against hostiles. It is also completely possible to do this with a 0 SP character running a 0 ISK starter fit. It can also go higher on some maps where there are four or more turrets within range of a starting rail gun, or through use of a rail tank or FG.
0.02 ISK
Cross
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Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
93
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Posted - 2013.08.20 21:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nekrokult wrote:HereGÇÖs an idea (considering Skirmish mainly): Installations (Turrets/CRU/Supply) donGÇÖt exist at all at start. What you have are hackable nodes. After a hack, you pick what type of structure should drop down (like OMS) on that node. After that, that installation can be destroyed or hacked like they are now. If destroyed, a cooldown period starts, after that cooldown the node becomes hackable again like in the start. This would allow a more strategic variety and a constantly changing battlefield.
On topic, I agree with WP removal on neutral installations.
+1 for this idea. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1594
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 22:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Nekrokult wrote:HereGÇÖs an idea (considering Skirmish mainly): Installations (Turrets/CRU/Supply) donGÇÖt exist at all at start. What you have are hackable nodes. After a hack, you pick what type of structure should drop down (like OMS) on that node. After that, that installation can be destroyed or hacked like they are now. If destroyed, a cooldown period starts, after that cooldown the node becomes hackable again like in the start. This would allow a more strategic variety and a constantly changing battlefield.
On topic, I agree with WP removal on neutral installations.
You sir, get a +1
0.02 ISK
Cross |
Fire of Prometheus
DUST University
Ivy League
147
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Posted - 2013.08.21 01:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Cross you are a genius!!!! I really want this to happen!!!!! +1
However what would your solution be to a rail/blaster turret installation spam, seeing as the rocket turret is only good at close rang? |
lithkul devant
Legions of Infinite Dominion
35
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Posted - 2013.08.21 01:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
I think I actually suggested the same thing once and was blasted by a legion worth of tankets for daring to take away the WP they farm from the turrets and them saying that it was 1/3 or 1/4 of the WP they can get in a match. That they would just kill the neutral turrets anyways cause they are annoying, well that's kind of the point to turrets to deny or slow down enemy advances even if it is just for a few moments. +1 for actually having the courage to bring up the topic, just know that the dedicated tankers when they find this thread are going to flame it heavily. |
Telleth
DUST University
Ivy League
115
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Posted - 2013.08.21 03:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nekrokult wrote:HereGÇÖs an idea (considering Skirmish mainly): Installations (Turrets/CRU/Supply) donGÇÖt exist at all at start. What you have are hackable nodes. After a hack, you pick what type of structure should drop down (like OMS) on that node. After that, that installation can be destroyed or hacked like they are now. If destroyed, a cooldown period starts, after that cooldown the node becomes hackable again like in the start. This would allow a more strategic variety and a constantly changing battlefield.
On topic, I agree with WP removal on neutral installations.
I really like this idea, would be good for everyone.
As to the OP:
Currently, even if there was no reward for destroying neutral installations, I would still do it. The only ones that are still neutral when I blow them up are the ones close to the friendly red-line. I do this because look at where they are pointing... right at our redline... no one coming from there but us.They catch tanks and other friendly vehicles while they are retreating. They can turn a temporary redlining into a permanent one. A moment when there is nowhere to spawn but the redline, and a turret in the right place, and no reinforcements... Game over man, game over.
Why on earth would I want to leave them alive? |
Necandi Brasil
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
294
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 03:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nerf Cross CCP he has the best ideas ! +1 |
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