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Damus Trifarn
The Yellow Lantern Corps
19
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Posted - 2013.08.13 21:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
After having a great discussion on my previous thread that included a guide on an Armor tanking Heavy by Megaman Trigger ( https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1173556#post1173556 ) I decided to make my next Heavy thread about that decision of what to do with a Heavy suit in terms of armor vs. mobility. Both are great at different things, and they both have the potential to be lethal forces on the battlefield, so what should you choose? Well, here I will attempt to combine the opinions of different mercs to give you an objective guide for both options.
First, let's consider a mobile Heavy:
Sentinel suits and Basic suits have their differences, but both play out well for this one specialization:
Sentinel: the extra low slots give you room for Cardiac Regulators and Kinetic Catalyzers to move more quickly and for longer durations than the basic suit
Basic: extra high slot gives you the ability to put more damage on your HMG or Forge, giving you the ability to dish out extra damage when you encounter enemies, which you will do more often if you move around the battlefield rather than be stationary
Now, let's consider the modules themselves.
A common complaint of Heavies is that they can't move fast enough or that they can't run long enough to make up for it. Cardiac Regulators and Kinetic Catalyzers solve this problem by increasing stamina and speed, respectively. Something that I recommend, though, is that you have at least 1 armor repairer because you will need a way to sustain yourself if you move around (meaning that you won't always have an ideal defensive position to minimize damage) and find yourself without a Logi. I've also found that two Cardiac Regulators give you more than enough stamina, outlined in the thread I linked earlier. Because of this, I use two armor repairers for more efficient repairing so that when I get to where I need to go I have more health. Kinetics in place of that 2nd repairer will help you move even faster though, so it's whatever you want.
The advantages of this are mainly that you are more easily able to defend multiple positions because you can go back and forth often, and that you are less vulnerable to being flanked and out maneuvered. You will also be able to be a more tactical Heavy of sorts, not having to stay in one general area and play whack a mole if you find yourself under attack. This is certainly not your only option with a armor tanking Heavy, but it is more likely to happen if you are not mobile.
The disadvantages are that you do not have significantly greater amounts of health from other suits if they happen to have lots of shield or armor, so you are more susceptible to being killed about as fast as others if you find yourself caught off guard. You will also have to retreat more to recover that health that you will desperately need to counteract the lower total health.
Overall, this style promotes a self sufficient, mobile Heavy capable of defending hubs of objectives. For an example of a battle with such a class, see my other thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1138391#post1138391
Now for the Armor Tanking Heavies:
Again, this style is changed through Sentinel and Basic
Sentinel: extra low slots = more armor plates and repairers
Basic: extra high slot = more damage output with less ability to soak up damage
(if you haven't noticed already, basic suits are for the offense oriented Heavy while the Sentinel is for the defense oriented Heavy)
Armor tanking Heavies address another common complaint: lack of superior health. Most Heavies feel that they are too easily killed for being a tank like class, and this style fixes that. (if you remember one thing from this post, remember that modules break or make Heavy suits) They are mainly focused on keeping enemies occupied, taking the damage because they can while they rack up kills and assist as their fellow mercs come in to finish the job. They typically have as many armor plates as possible with the exception of having one armor repairer. For the vast amount of health you'll have this seems worthless, but it does allow you to recover health without a Logi, giving you some sustainability.
The advantages of this build are that you can take immense amounts of damage, and if you are good at aiming, you can often down an enemy with well over 400 health in your armor left. This suit can survive for a very long time with a squad and is often a deciding factor in a battle because if the team focuses on killing you your squad can easily kill them. You will definitely want flux grenades to take out shields, because if you face a shield tanking merc you are in for a rough ride if you carry around an HMG. Anything to negate that shield helps because the bonuses and penalties to shields are less than the bonus and penalties to armor, so you definitely need to bring them to your level.
The disadvantages are that you are incredibly slow with all of those penalties and you will often need a LAV to move around quickly, but if the vehicle limit is reached, you're left to a slow trudge through the battlefield. Snipers are also deadly, but you are still more likely to survive than most. You are also left to rely on team members more, but this is true for any heavy. The main disadvantage is the fact that you can get outflanked and out maneuvered more easily when you're so slow.
Thanks for reading this thread! I hope it helps you decide what is best for you as a Heavy. If you have any more questions or other tips, I'd love to hear them and use the insight for my next thread.
For guides made by mobile heavies, see my thread linked at the top or Bears Beets' "The immortal Heavy: A Basic Guide"
(https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1125000#post1125000)
For a guide written by an armor tanking heavy, see Megaman's guide posted in the same thread at the top.
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Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
20
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Posted - 2013.08.13 23:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Both load outs have a few things in common; Both set-ups tend to suffer at the hands on Mass Drivers for one reason or another, either they're low health (mobile) or low speed (armour) works against them and Mass Drivers, being explosive, are very effective against armour. So once those shields go, the Heavy'll go in less than a clip. Worse, you can't be revived.
Another shared problem is the reload on the HMG; if you have to reload in a firefight, you can kiss your clone goodbye. The reload on the HMG, unless you max out the reload skill with a Proto Sentinel, is ridiculously slow. |
Damus Trifarn
The Yellow Lantern Corps
19
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Posted - 2013.08.13 23:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Megaman Trigger wrote:Both load outs have a few things in common; Both set-ups tend to suffer at the hands on Mass Drivers for one reason or another, either they're low health (mobile) or low speed (armour) works against them and Mass Drivers, being explosive, are very effective against armour. So once those shields go, the Heavy'll go in less than a clip. Worse, you can't be revived.
Another shared problem is the reload on the HMG; if you have to reload in a firefight, you can kiss your clone goodbye. The reload on the HMG, unless you max out the reload skill with a Proto Sentinel, is ridiculously slow.
Those are common problems that I didn't consider. Thanks for pointing them out. I've found that an SMG as a sidearm solves my problems with slow reload for the HMG.
As for MD users, I toss a grenade and they tend to get too jumpy to be effective, but that only works for some of the time. Guess that's where CCP wants us to rely on our Logis or other mercs. If anyone has found another decent counter to MD users, feel free to post it. |
Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
20
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Posted - 2013.08.14 00:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Side arm is a must for a Heavy, either for when the HMG is reloading or is they get too close to a Forge Gunner. Scrambler Pistols are good if the Heavy is accurate and had time to aim, where as a SMG is better for up-close and personal/frantic combat. Nova Knives on a Heavy are a waste of a weapon, they'll never get used to full effect, and the Flaylock got hit hard by the Nerf-Mallet.
If you can get above a MD user, it becomes hell for them to aim correctly. |
Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
21
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Posted - 2013.08.18 13:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lately I've been seeing an increase in Heavy suits carrying Assault Rifles or Assault Scrambler Rifles instead of Heavy weapons. For Assault players, I imagine the hike in Shields and Armour compared to Assault Suits is quite a draw.
Commando Suits still seem to be unloved, despite this increase in Pseudo-Heavy players. |
Damus Trifarn
The Yellow Lantern Corps
21
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Posted - 2013.08.19 16:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
I think it's the lack of modules on the Commando that drive people away from it; maybe they prefer to put kincats on the Heavy to increase speed back up to assault suit levels. |
Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
22
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Posted - 2013.08.19 23:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Perhaps, but I do see the use of the Commando suit. It may have less slots, at Proto it only has two High and one Low, but you can still make it frightening to deal with.
For example; A Proto Commando with a Complex Armour Repair and two Complex Light Damage Modifiers, armed with a Swarm and an Assault Rifle and equipped with a Nanohive, would be a good A/V set-up that won't get caught out so easily by roaming Assaults.
A Commando with a Sniper and an Assault Rifle has the dame benefit as an anti-infantry, removing some of a sniper's vulnerability while moving or caught.
Plasma Cannon and Mass Driver would work just like a Flux Grenade/Mass Driver combo. |
Damus Trifarn
The Yellow Lantern Corps
21
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Posted - 2013.08.24 16:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm surprised that I don't see more of the Commando honestly; it has the potential to be a deadly force on the battlefield, especially for people who like Assault suits. One reason it may not be so popular is that most people love the SMG so much they prefer it over some light weapons, and some even dual wield them. Another could be the fact that grenades are so good they can make do with only one light weapon when they have a flux or av on hand. The Commando has great potential, it's just that everybody wants to go to the cheaper options which can do generally the same thing in most cases. |
Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
22
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Posted - 2013.08.24 17:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
It's a shame that a Drop Suit gets overlooked like that. |
Damus Trifarn
The Yellow Lantern Corps
23
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Posted - 2013.08.25 18:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yep. Hopefully when racial variants come out for Heavy suits and weapons it'll draw more attention to the Commando as well as the Sentinel (can't wait to try out the Minmatar Heavy) |
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Chit Hoppened
Venomous Rat Regeneration Vendors
0
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Posted - 2013.08.25 21:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
The Commando is a powerful force
My CEO's main is one and he has some deadly set ups
Dual Snipers; AScR/AR; AScR/MD (my personal favorite)
He is dicked on slots and should get more (H/L doesn't matter)
OR another equipment slot to make him more like an odd variant of a HvyLogi |
Damus Trifarn
The Yellow Lantern Corps
25
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Posted - 2013.08.25 22:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
I agree that the Commando should get another slot or an equipment slot. It needs something to make the suit more versatile, which is its main selling point anyway with 2 light weapons. It might need some extra CPU/PG to compensate for the slots, but I'm no expert on deciding those numbers. I'm looking forward to seeing the racial variants of the Commando as well. We could see some very interesting setups once all the Heavy suits come out, but until then I'll wipe out my enemies with my Amarr Sentinel  |
Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
22
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Posted - 2013.08.26 22:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
I can't wait for the Gallente variants, I'm interested to see the bonus for them. |
Damus Trifarn
The Yellow Lantern Corps
26
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Posted - 2013.08.28 00:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm interested to see how the Gallente Heavy does with all of that armor; it will be the incarnation of armor tanking. I just like Minmatar for their speed which suits my strategy as a Heavy (and for breaking free of the chains of the Amarr. Freedom!) |
Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
23
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Posted - 2013.08.28 02:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
We get something that can survive Mass Drivers. Well, survive a little longer anyways. |
Damus Trifarn
The Yellow Lantern Corps
26
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Posted - 2013.08.28 02:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Maybe the new Heavy weapons could deal with them but I assume too much... |
Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
23
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Posted - 2013.08.28 02:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
I hear it'll be an anti-shield weapon, possibly a Heavy Laser Rifle. I would like a Heavy Plasma Cannon, but I guess that's what the Forge Gun is. |
Damus Trifarn
The Yellow Lantern Corps
26
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Posted - 2013.08.28 02:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nice, I would've loved to have that when the Caldari Logi was considered OP by everyone, but I'll settle for killing people with my Boundless HMG. Gotta love the Minmatar weaponry. |
Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
23
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Posted - 2013.08.28 02:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'm quite content taking out Snipers with my Mega Buster Forge Gun. My HMG, on the other hand, took down quite a few Heavies earlier today. |
Damus Trifarn
The Yellow Lantern Corps
27
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Posted - 2013.08.29 00:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
I was terrible with Forge Gun sniping when I tried it to see what all the hype was about, so I stuck to using them as long range AV. Still, the sheer joy of killing a random soldier that runs up to me is priceless. |
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Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
23
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Posted - 2013.08.29 01:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nothing makes you smile like getting a direct hit on an Assault charging you down. |
castba
Penguin's March
91
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Posted - 2013.08.29 05:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Megaman Trigger wrote:Nothing makes you smile like getting a direct hit on an Assault charging you down.
I would agree, but as of last week I can name two things that satisfy more;
1. Clearing out 3 reds on a hack point then immediately moving to the nearby uplink and clearing out the 4 reds readying to push the same hack point with my AFG at ground level. Felt badass even if I am not
2. Sending an attacking Scout into oblivion mid leap with my AFG.
Back on topic, getting Biotics up to level 5 gives heavies a 5.3 sprint speed without Kin Cats. Makes quite a difference. Can't wait for the armour buff on Monday to see how much difference it makes to the mobility of a tanked heavy. |
Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
23
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Posted - 2013.08.29 10:51:00 -
[23] - Quote
castba wrote:Megaman Trigger wrote:Nothing makes you smile like getting a direct hit on an Assault charging you down. I would agree, but as of last week I can name two things that satisfy more; 1. Clearing out 3 reds on a hack point then immediately moving to the nearby uplink and clearing out the 4 reds readying to push the same hack point with my AFG at ground level. Felt badass even if I am not 2. Sending an attacking Scout into oblivion mid leap with my AFG. Back on topic, getting Biotics up to level 5 gives heavies a 5.3 sprint speed without Kin Cats. Makes quite a difference. Can't wait for the armour buff on Monday to see how much difference it makes to the mobility of a tanked heavy.
So the armour buff is happening Monday with 1.4? From what I hear, it's both a buff to the HP bonus of plates and a nerf to the weight penalty. |
castba
Penguin's March
92
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Posted - 2013.08.29 15:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Correct on all three accounts |
Damus Trifarn
The Yellow Lantern Corps
27
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Posted - 2013.08.29 21:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
Can't wait for the changes to armor; I may even start armor tanking now. I'm also very excited for the new matchmaking system, provided it actually works. |
Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
23
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Posted - 2013.08.29 23:51:00 -
[26] - Quote
Given your playstyle, a mixed set-up of Plates and Cardiac Regulators would probably suit you well. |
Damus Trifarn
The Yellow Lantern Corps
27
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Posted - 2013.08.30 00:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
Megaman Trigger wrote:Given your playstyle, a mixed set-up of Plates and Cardiac Regulators would probably suit you well.
My thoughts exactly; I may make a Sentinel with 2 plates, 1 rep, and 1 cardiac regulator. Oh, the joys of being of Heavy.
Can't wait to see you on the field with the new plates; considering your playstyle, you'll get a significant boost in your game.
Our time is coming. |
Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
23
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Posted - 2013.08.30 00:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
I can't wait either. Hopefully this also goes part way to fixing the Tankers issues of Armour Tanking being inferior to Shield Tanking. |
Damus Trifarn
The Yellow Lantern Corps
27
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Posted - 2013.08.30 00:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yep, tanks need some love. Hopefully 1.5 will expand on the armor and shield balance for tanks since it's supposed to be a patch to fix tanks. |
Megaman Trigger
Beyond Gravity.OTF
23
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Posted - 2013.08.30 00:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
Any fixes to the vehicle Armour and Shields balance should, in theory, also affect dropsuits and visa versa. |
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