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Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1228
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Posted - 2013.08.13 16:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Maybe there could be some sort of weapon that penetrates shields and only affects armor. i.e. shields would be left totally intact but armor would be damaged.
It would obviously have to have serious drawbacks like very very low DPS or very difficult to use.
What are your opinions on this idea? What sort of form do you think such a weapon could take? How could the mechanics be explained using reasonable New Eden lore? |
CLONE117
Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore
114
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Posted - 2013.08.13 16:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
um no.. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1228
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Posted - 2013.08.13 16:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
I expected some negative responses to this as it's a pretty controversial but it'd be more productive for everyone if you could explain your objection at least a little. |
Forlorn Destrier
Bullet Cluster
1378
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Posted - 2013.08.13 16:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:I expected some negative responses to this as it's a pretty controversial but it'd be more productive for everyone if you could explain your objection at least a little.
This negates skill points that people spend time investing to boost shields. It is also game breaking, and should never exist. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514
2486
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Posted - 2013.08.13 16:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
That would immediately break shield tanking. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1228
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Posted - 2013.08.13 16:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
It would certainly circumvent shield tanking but that's why it would have some pretty serious drawbacks, so not many people would use it and shield tanking would still be viable. Imagine something like an AR but with half the dps. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1458
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Posted - 2013.08.13 16:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Options that can completely negate a game mechanic as broad as a type of tanking are going to wreak havoc on game balance. Much like explosive weapons do now, which it is worth noting are going to be changed so they have less of this effect. Leaving aside explosives the nearest thing we have is the Flux which cannot kill. So we can dismiss the flux since presumably this weapon would be created to actually kill a target and now we're comparing the new weapon to the Scram, LR et al. At which point the question must be asked "how do we add this new type of weapon without diminishing the roles of weapons which are already present" another way to look at this would be"what unique game play aspect could such a weapon bring"?
Simply ignoring shields isn't enough to be unique in that it is essentially a highly buffed version of weapons already present in the game. Then there's the balance issue in general, think of how potent even the STD LR would be if it applied all of its damage directly to armor completely ignoring shields. Against some fits that version of the STD LR would then be outputting more effective dps than many proto weapons, I trust the problem with that is clear.
I commend you for thinking outside the box to come up with new ideas, and I encourage you to continue, it is just that this specific idea is likely not the best addition to the game.
0.02 ISK Cross |
Doyle Reese
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
375
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Posted - 2013.08.13 16:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
you know, watching the trailer for Dust (the one with the prices on everything) I saw a weapon- probably an AR- doing damage to both shields and armor at the same time, not saying that's how it should be done, but was interesting |
Ulysses Knapse
Bojo's School of the Trades
488
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Posted - 2013.08.13 16:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Once you make a weapon that ignores shields, it gives armor tankers an impossible to balance advantage. There's no alternative. A weapon that ignores shields but not armor is far more overpowered than a weapon that ignores armor but not shields. There's no way to balance it. At all.
If you give it too many drawbacks, it won't be useful at all. If you don't give it enough drawbacks, it will rip apart shield tankers as if they were nothing. The worst part is that the two overlap. It's either useless or overpowered, or it's useless and overpowered. It just can't work. |
low genius
the sound of freedom Renegade Alliance
285
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Posted - 2013.08.13 17:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Maybe there could be some sort of weapon that penetrates shields and only affects armor. i.e. shields would be left totally intact but armor would be damaged.
It would obviously have to have serious drawbacks like very very low DPS or very difficult to use.
What are your opinions on this idea? What sort of form do you think such a weapon could take? How could the mechanics be explained using reasonable New Eden lore?
|
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Jason Pearson
Seraphim Auxiliaries
2490
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Posted - 2013.08.13 17:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
King of the Forums // Seraphim <3 Comment and like this thread about PvE, Here! Also, check out the Indirect Fire ability, Here! |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY
409
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Posted - 2013.08.13 17:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Give this power to the mass driver. All the armor tankers will laugh at the caldari and make them feel bad. |
Lillica Deathdealer
Mango and Friends
103
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Posted - 2013.08.13 17:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:It would certainly circumvent shield tanking but that's why it would have some pretty serious drawbacks, so not many people would use it and shield tanking would still be viable. Imagine something like an AR but with half the dps. Two things. 1st, half the dps of an AR is still beastly. AR has more dps than large blaster on a tank. 2nd, to begin the trolling, how about a weapon that ignores armour and immediately kills people after getting through shields? Because thats pretty much what you're saying to the shield tanked people out there. |
Forlorn Destrier
Bullet Cluster
1379
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Posted - 2013.08.13 17:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Options that can completely negate a game mechanic as broad as a type of tanking are going to wreak havoc on game balance. Much like explosive weapons do now, which it is worth noting are going to be changed so they have less of this effect. Leaving aside explosives the nearest thing we have is the Flux which cannot kill. So we can dismiss the flux since presumably this weapon would be created to actually kill a target and now we're comparing the new weapon to the Scram, LR et al. At which point the question must be asked "how do we add this new type of weapon without diminishing the roles of weapons which are already present" another way to look at this would be"what unique game play aspect could such a weapon bring"?
Simply ignoring shields isn't enough to be unique in that it is essentially a highly buffed version of weapons already present in the game. Then there's the balance issue in general, think of how potent even the STD LR would be if it applied all of its damage directly to armor completely ignoring shields. Against some fits that version of the STD LR would then be outputting more effective dps than many proto weapons, I trust the problem with that is clear.
I commend you for thinking outside the box to come up with new ideas, and I encourage you to continue, it is just that this specific idea is likely not the best addition to the game.
0.02 ISK Cross
Well said. |
Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood
983
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Posted - 2013.08.13 17:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
as a minny scout with 74 armor i respectfuly oppose this idea |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1230
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Posted - 2013.08.13 17:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lillica Deathdealer wrote:Django Quik wrote:It would certainly circumvent shield tanking but that's why it would have some pretty serious drawbacks, so not many people would use it and shield tanking would still be viable. Imagine something like an AR but with half the dps. Two things. 1st, half the dps of an AR is still beastly. AR has more dps than large blaster on a tank. 2nd, to begin the trolling, how about a weapon that ignores armour and immediately kills people after getting through shields? Because thats pretty much what you're saying to the shield tanked people out there. No need to troll - as Cross Atu noted, I'm just thinking out of the box and spitballing here. It's crazy thinking that produces some of the best things in life and games.
How about 1/4 the DPS of an AR? Or instead of completely ignoring shields, the amount of shields reduces the damage done - i.e. with 500hp shields the weapon does 1dps but with 100hp shields it does 20dps. (randomly chosen values)
This is called brainstorming and is a hell of a lot more interesting than bickering about CPMs or respecs or LAVs. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1230
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Posted - 2013.08.13 17:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:as a minny scout with 74 armor i respectfuly oppose this idea Lol, yeah, that would be killer but what about if the weapon was really tough to aim and track with? |
ALPHA DECRIPTER
M.E.R.C. Conventional Forces D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
270
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Posted - 2013.08.13 17:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
This idea just makes me think "Amarr Knives" but hey, if you guys wanna stick with automatic weapons for this idea then go for it. I'll keep watching this thread as I'm curious to know if anyone will find a good balance for this. Here's hope as the idea itself, I kinda like.
`Sigh. Just another fun game of DUST. |
Tiffany NE Shephard
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
2
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Posted - 2013.08.13 17:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Maybe there could be some sort of weapon that penetrates shields and only affects armor. i.e. shields would be left totally intact but armor would be damaged.
It would obviously have to have serious drawbacks like very very low DPS or very difficult to use.
What are your opinions on this idea? What sort of form do you think such a weapon could take? How could the mechanics be explained using reasonable New Eden lore?
Clear shields with Flux grenades. Then you can get your kills on armor. Happy Trails |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1230
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 18:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tiffany NE Shephard wrote:Django Quik wrote:Maybe there could be some sort of weapon that penetrates shields and only affects armor. i.e. shields would be left totally intact but armor would be damaged.
It would obviously have to have serious drawbacks like very very low DPS or very difficult to use.
What are your opinions on this idea? What sort of form do you think such a weapon could take? How could the mechanics be explained using reasonable New Eden lore? Clear shields with Flux grenades. Then you can get your kills on armor. Happy Trails This is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Where's that -1 button? |
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1231
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 18:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
ALPHA DECRIPTER wrote:This idea just makes me think "Amarr Knives" but hey, if you guys wanna stick with automatic weapons for this idea then go for it. I'll keep watching this thread as I'm curious to know if anyone will find a good balance for this. Here's hope as the idea itself, I kinda like.
`Sigh. Just another fun game of DUST . Hmm, interesting point - why would a knife or any melee weapon be affected by shields? Maybe there could be certain types of nova knives that negate shields? |
Tiffany NE Shephard
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
5
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Posted - 2013.08.13 19:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Tiffany NE Shephard wrote:Django Quik wrote:Maybe there could be some sort of weapon that penetrates shields and only affects armor. i.e. shields would be left totally intact but armor would be damaged.
It would obviously have to have serious drawbacks like very very low DPS or very difficult to use.
What are your opinions on this idea? What sort of form do you think such a weapon could take? How could the mechanics be explained using reasonable New Eden lore? Clear shields with Flux grenades. Then you can get your kills on armor. Happy Trails This is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Where's that -1 button?
It's completely relevant - I see you wanting to be lazy and use shield penetrating weapon that deals strictly armor damage to kill. You should ask CCP to remove shields instead. |
Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
231
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Posted - 2013.08.13 19:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Maybe there could be some sort of weapon that penetrates shields and only affects armor. i.e. shields would be left totally intact but armor would be damaged.
It would obviously have to have serious drawbacks like very very low DPS or very difficult to use.
What are your opinions on this idea? What sort of form do you think such a weapon could take? How could the mechanics be explained using reasonable New Eden lore?
I just thought of a way to incorporate in using lore. Maybe. Probably not. But lets have at it. To my understanding, Amarr can utilise wormhole technology, correct? So what if the shots fired travelled through a wormhole at the end of the gun, with the opening of it being just inside the shield of the target, thereby negating the shield. Very stupid but hey, I tried. |
Doshneil Antaro
Dem Durrty Boyz
109
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Posted - 2013.08.13 20:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Overall, I'd say that this idea is bad, but on the right track to balance shield vs armor weaponry. Their needs to be a MD that decimates shields and still be able to damage armor. Basically just flip the stats on the damage/bonus. Also Flaylock the same. Then change flux to be opposite of the locus and be able to kill as well. |
General Erick
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
57
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Posted - 2013.08.13 20:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Just no |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1405
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Posted - 2013.08.13 21:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
i'll plus one this, but it seems we're outnumbered.
I'd like to see a crossbow or dart gun of some sort that fired a flechette that pierced shields, low DPS all around but coupled with a headshot it's the perfect weapon for silent/stealthy approaches.
Dealing a percent of damage through shields could also be the bonus of a certain ammo type too. |
Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
63
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Posted - 2013.08.13 21:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
I propose a knife with low damage that ignores shields. This requires you to be up close, It wont wreck armor tankers, and it still has the unique functionality. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1232
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Posted - 2013.08.13 22:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
Finally getting some actual discussion on this rather than just people unproductively trying to shut down idea threads. I particularly like the thought of a crossbow type weapon - the rate of fire would be abysmal but if you use it right, you can still make a decent attack. Imagine a scout being able to be a proper silent assassin. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1233
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Posted - 2013.08.13 22:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tiffany NE Shephard wrote:Django Quik wrote:Tiffany NE Shephard wrote:Django Quik wrote:Maybe there could be some sort of weapon that penetrates shields and only affects armor. i.e. shields would be left totally intact but armor would be damaged.
It would obviously have to have serious drawbacks like very very low DPS or very difficult to use.
What are your opinions on this idea? What sort of form do you think such a weapon could take? How could the mechanics be explained using reasonable New Eden lore? Clear shields with Flux grenades. Then you can get your kills on armor. Happy Trails This is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Where's that -1 button? It's completely relevant - I see you wanting to be lazy and use shield penetrating weapon that deals strictly armor damage to kill. You should ask CCP to remove shields instead. No. What you've said is a method to deal with shields so you can then attack the armor. That is not what this thread is discussing. This thread is not asking to remove shields from the game; it's talking about a new special weapon type and whether it could fit into this game in any form. There have actually been some good ideas come out of it that could potentially work. |
NOAMIzzzzz
BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate
12
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Posted - 2013.08.13 22:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
-1 |
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Interplanetary Insanitarium
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
90
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Posted - 2013.08.13 23:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
FORGE GUN FTW!!
"It doesn't just ignore shields, IT IGNORES YOU!!!!!"-¬Gäó-« |
Lynn Beck
Granite Mercenary Division
108
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Posted - 2013.08.13 23:55:00 -
[32] - Quote
-1, Think of any dual tankers out there, or even armor tankers: What would be the purpose of their shields? Why does gallente gave that 150 shields? Why does amarr have an even tank? Why does the 1100 shield hp on a madrugar even exist? It's there to be a buffer vs. anti armor weaponry, the moment you take that away from them, they are nothing but rolling bricks that attract locuses/swarms. Even though their sheilding would remain intact, what purpose would it serve? |
Fiddler Galaine
The United Federation New Eden Dark Taboo
17
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Posted - 2013.08.14 00:11:00 -
[33] - Quote
More likely a weapon that simultaneously damages shields and armor or a weapon that punches through shields every 5th shot...or something. |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
578
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Posted - 2013.08.14 00:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
Interplanetary Insanitarium wrote:FORGE GUN FTW!! "It doesn't just ignore shields, IT IGNORES YOU!!!!!"-¬Gäó-« Don't make me shoot down that DS of yours.... |
LT apparition
Ancient Exiles
53
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Posted - 2013.08.14 02:01:00 -
[35] - Quote
that dumb .... especially not balance.. considering people like me who prefer Speed, and mobility. i Use Scout Suits, and Nothing but Scout Suits... that would be bonkers if there was a weapon to ignore shields ... because frankly.. i am nothing but relying on my shields as a scout.. i run the mimitar Scout primary, but even my gallente scouts aren't that strong in terms of armor... and then there still the fact... that some assault have low Armor...
Your idea of ignorant of shields weapons is Flawed... and would ruin the Slight Balance the Game currently Does have. |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1407
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Posted - 2013.08.14 04:52:00 -
[36] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:-1, Think of any dual tankers out there, or even armor tankers: What would be the purpose of their shields? Why does gallente gave that 150 shields? Why does amarr have an even tank? Why does the 1100 shield hp on a madrugar even exist? It's there to be a buffer vs. anti armor weaponry, the moment you take that away from them, they are nothing but rolling bricks that attract locuses/swarms. Even though their sheilding would remain intact, what purpose would it serve?
It'd be a question of whether or not the lowered DPS that would come along with an effect like doing damage through shields would have to come with would be worth it.
Yes it would rock the world of some suits that are primarily shield tankers, but it would just be offsetting the fact that shield tankers are faster and have generally much better survivability than armor tankers.
Let's take the idea I brought up, the crossbow. I'll toss out some pros and cons, as well as base stats, that I think would go along with this sort of mechanic.
stats- light weapon 86 damage a shot kinetic damage type (105% to armor) 60 rpm (maximum - could be lower) dps, 86 base (90 actual due to bonuses from weapon profiles) 1.95x bonus for critical hits (same as sniper rifle) pros -
1. bypasses shields 2. silent 3. accurate at range
cons- 1. low DPS 2. low rof makes CQC unforgiving
The weapon at base stats would be able to kill a caldari logi or minmatar scout in one shot, but any other suit would require a headshot to kill, and any of these suits were to actually fit plates it would be much harder to actually get a kill, assuming all your rounds even land on target. As a weapon like this would be low ROF with no spread or splash that would be demonstrating a bit of skill.
A weapon like that would exist for two reasons - to punish people who don't use caution when fitting out a suit (pure shields are a bad idea anyway considering just how many flux nades and scrambler rifles are out there) and to give those who want to play a stealth assassin role another option. |
Thurak1
Psygod9
34
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Posted - 2013.08.14 05:37:00 -
[37] - Quote
When i think of something like this it reminds me in a way of warhammers in ancient battles. Armor is great protection vs swords and some arrows but hammers still do good damage even vs full plate mail. Not sure what the mechanics of this would be in this game..
I dont really like this idea myself being a heavy and finding that even with over 1k ehps it takes no time to take me out unless there is cover VERY close by. However simply from a diversity standpoint it would be a neat idea. I would make it primarily anti infantry so that damadge on tanks and lav's would not be a real concern.
Since it would hit just armor i would make it a low damage weapon. I also think that it should be a medium to slow ROF weapon.
Lol also not being able to carry enough rounds to take out a heavy :) |
Zat Earthshatter
Ghosts Of Ourselves
350
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Posted - 2013.08.14 06:27:00 -
[38] - Quote
I've suggested a shield-ignoring grenade once, not long after the introduction of the Flux. People didn't like it at all, and after a few modifications I scrapped it completely - it's not a good idea in this game to completely ignore an outer layer of defenses. The Flux isn't as problematic as it affects the outermost layer, and therefore will never kill or truly ignore another layer. |
Skipper Jones
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres
628
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Posted - 2013.08.14 06:45:00 -
[39] - Quote
I like the idea.
In a little game know as Section 8 there were shields and armor (just like in dust). Certain weapons/ammunition type (There were different types of bullets you could shoot out) had different effects on shields and armor. In close range, the machine gun pierced through shields and only damaged armor. When the armor was gone, you got a kill. The machine gun did little to no damage at longer range.
The Assault rifle in that game had two types. Close range slug rounds and long range rail rounds. When a target was in close range, it fired slug rounds which only damaged armor and were devastating. at long range it fired rail rounds which depleted shields and armor all the same. (This feature of course could be customizable to fire only slug/rail rounds.)
Ahh Section 8. One of the best FPS out there for its customization alone. |
True Adamance
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1217
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Posted - 2013.08.14 06:58:00 -
[40] - Quote
Shield tanker terrified of new anti shield weapon.... yes tears bring on the tears. I support this weapon. |
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