DUST Search - Logistic Role Bonus Change

Cross Atu wrote:

BL4CKST4R wrote:

RedZer0 MK1 wrote:

Logistics. When starting this game last year there wasn't any doubt that's what I'd be playing. Yet, the recent changes got me thinking. If the main purpose of the 'Logistic' class is to provide support with equipment, why not push that? What I'm getting at is the bonus for being Logistic doesn't make sense. Even the planned bonuses fall short of the mark. The solution is simple, the racial bonus for gallente should be the Logistic bonus as a class. And this is coming from someone who relishes the armor reps, but being able to bring better equipment makes more sense. I am not suggesting that CPU/PG stay the same for logi suits either. A appropriate reduction in CPU/PG would be in order.

Personally I think the role bonus for all logistics suits should be the Gallente one, although I do believe all the suits should get a passive armor repair, specially the Gallente and Amarr suits.

I could wholeheartedly support the vision BL4CKST4R is proposing here so long as one aspect is made clear.
The current Gal bonus is mechanically the weakest among the logi skill buffs.
So far in my testing I've yet to find a way that the Gal bonus stands up to the others, a major flaw in it is that eHP > meta level of equipment carried. If you're dead, let alone dieing a lot - which causes the same thing at a higher ISK cost, then it doesn't matter what equipment you have fitted your team isn't going to be benefiting from the majority of its utility/tactical value.

It is also important to note that the lower the base on suit values for PG and CPU the less actual benefit is gained from things such as fittings skills and thus the higher the equipment fittings reduction value would have to become to even break even.
Here's an example with fictional numbers:
Current
Amarr logi has 150 CPU --> 195 CPU with max skills.
Logi gains no equipment discount.

Proposed
Amarr logi new CPU value 100 -- > 130, total fittings loss of 65 CPU
Logi gains a 50% reduction in equipment fittings costs - required base equipment fittings cost to break even 130 CPU.

An actual example
Amarr Logi
CPU 390 -- > 507 (with skills)

Let's say all suits suffer a CPU reduction as per the Cal Logi change
Base CPU is now 350 -> 455 (with skills) --> Net loss 52 CPU
Gal racial savings of 25% applied requires equipment CPU fittings cost of 100 [u]just to break even with old values[/b]
That means you could be fitting a proto Uplink and Injector before breaking even much less seeing any actual utility (note: highest CPU uplink would put the value at 119 granting a net savings of -4.75 CPU assuming max levels. Add the Allotek Nanohive (R) nano hive which has the highest CPU cost in the range at 88 CPU equals a total CPU savings of -26.75 at max level)

Assuming that best case scenario your net gain of 26.75 CPU that's approximately 27 CPU short of fitting a single complex shield extender. Put another way, if we increase the skill buff to a 50% savings the Amarr logi would gain enough roughly CPU at max skills to fit a single mod.
Now granted the logi with 4 equipment slots will benefit more from this buff as they can fit an additional piece of equipment, but that just means that unlike the current reps the equipment buff wouldn't benefit all logi equally unless the values are tailored to each suit not the role (and then it's a subjective tug of war regarding how much more savings is required to counterbalance the effective savings of having more equipment slots).

In short the flavor of the bonus is great but the actual mechanical value is, in its current state, both messy and underwhelming.

0.02 ISK
Cross

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RedZer0 MK1 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 7	Posted - 2013.07.31 19:54:00 - [1] - Quote Logistics. When starting this game last year there wasn't any doubt that's what I'd be playing. Yet, the recent changes got me thinking. If the main purpose of the 'Logistic' class is to provide support with equipment, why not push that? What I'm getting at is the bonus for being Logistic doesn't make sense. Even the planned bonuses fall short of the mark. The solution is simple, the racial bonus for gallente should be the Logistic bonus as a class. And this is coming from someone who relishes the armor reps, but being able to bring better equipment makes more sense. I am not suggesting that CPU/PG stay the same for logi suits either. A appropriate reduction in CPU/PG would be in order.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 1402	Posted - 2013.07.31 20:10:00 - [2] - Quote Even the planned bonuses fall short? Where have you seen anything about planned bonuses? How would you know if they've fallen short?
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic Top Men. 187	Posted - 2013.07.31 21:14:00 - [3] - Quote Yes I would like to hear what the new bonuses will be as well. 2 of the Logi bonuses are pretty cool and logi oriented, Gal and Minnie. Cal is just stupid and the Amarr is kind of trash too. I agree the Gal bonus should be the overall Logi bonus because that just makes sense. What kind of bonuses do you think would fit the logis better?
RedZer0 MK1 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 7	Posted - 2013.07.31 21:38:00 - [4] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Even the planned bonuses fall short? Where have you seen anything about planned bonuses? How would you know if they've fallen short? The idea is to have logis get more out of their equipment, i.e. more cluster per hive, longer rep tool range, etc. Their is a technical problem preventing them from doing it atm. Was in a dev post about the changes to logis.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1437	Posted - 2013.07.31 21:48:00 - [5] - Quote The repair bonus makes sense in context of Logis repairing other people (and not themselves), so it's a "Physican, heal thyself" sort of thing. A dead medic revives no one. The Amarr bonus makes further sense in context of them being the "Assault Logi", that is - a more combat-oriented logi. They have the worst PG and speed of the Logis, but are intended to be more assault oriented. The hacking bonus would be useful for any player, that they have that... has little relation to logistics if you think about logistics in a supply/repair/medic context. If we think of logistics as just "flexible" in general.. then I guess you can think of them as hackers... and every other class as some sort of combat role. The Gallente bonus of fitting is definitely useful to anyone fitting equipment, and doesn't really discriminate against the player for their choice of equipment either (be it explosives, nanohives, or whatever). The Caldari bonus also makes them combat oriented (quicker recharge) as opposed to the extender bonus which just made them "harder to kill" period. Having your medic not die easily makes sense either way. Whether or not quicker recharging shields (which seems more line of fire related) or just more shields (taking big hits) makes more sense is debatable. The thing with any survivability bonus is it's good for any role... any role will be better when not dead. The armor repair bonus makes sense in the context of logis using repair tools... and not being able to target themselves. The other bonuses.... it's harder to say.
Cosgar ParagonX 3617	Posted - 2013.07.31 22:15:00 - [6] - Quote Just don't touch my hacking bonus. It's the only reason why I went Minmatar over Gallente.
RedZer0 MK1 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 7	Posted - 2013.07.31 23:06:00 - [7] - Quote Galvan Nized wrote: Yes I would like to hear what the new bonuses will be as well. 2 of the Logi bonuses are pretty cool and logi oriented, Gal and Minnie. Cal is just stupid and the Amarr is kind of trash too. I agree the Gal bonus should be the overall Logi bonus because that just makes sense. What kind of bonuses do you think would fit the logis better? I think the amarr racial bonus should be the gallente racial bonus (logics), gallente=armor. Mimnatar racial is fine, the amarr racial should be 2% weapon damage, or perhaps just sidearm damage. I know it doesn't seem very 'logistic' but I have played amarr logis, and I think having a damage bump would solidify their role as 'combat-focused' logistics.
Oso Peresoso RisingSuns 463	Posted - 2013.07.31 23:18:00 - [8] - Quote CCP has stated the current bonuses will be totally changed.
RedZer0 MK1 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 7	Posted - 2013.07.31 23:23:00 - [9] - Quote Oso Peresoso wrote: CCP has stated the current bonuses will be totally changed. Yes, but the change they are looking to aren't needed. We already have the best generic, uncomplicated, good for all racial variants Logi bonus possible. It is just stuck on gallente at the moment.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 862	Posted - 2013.08.01 00:53:00 - [10] - Quote RedZer0 MK1 wrote: Logistics. When starting this game last year there wasn't any doubt that's what I'd be playing. Yet, the recent changes got me thinking. If the main purpose of the 'Logistic' class is to provide support with equipment, why not push that? What I'm getting at is the bonus for being Logistic doesn't make sense. Even the planned bonuses fall short of the mark. The solution is simple, the racial bonus for gallente should be the Logistic bonus as a class. And this is coming from someone who relishes the armor reps, but being able to bring better equipment makes more sense. I am not suggesting that CPU/PG stay the same for logi suits either. A appropriate reduction in CPU/PG would be in order. Personally I think the role bonus for all logistics suits should be the Gallente one, although I do believe all the suits should get a passive armor repair, specially the Gallente and Amarr suits.

KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Auxiliaries 628	Posted - 2013.08.01 02:10:00 - [11] - Quote OP, a very very good suggestion! As having to fill multiple Eq slots is a huge drain on PG/CPU and therefore logi PG/CPU is correspondingly higher, this would really make it easier to balance logi suits compared to other suits! Balancing in a way that would make it harder to leave empty Eq slots and build full complex logi killer suit. Please note that all suits, logi suits included, are supposed to be war capable combat suits. The killer above meaning OMGZORPWN-suit to made harder to kill.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1362	Posted - 2013.08.01 03:29:00 - [12] - Quote Quoted from the Dev Blog post Cross Atu wrote: The Cal logi suit is expected and not uncalled for. The Amarr suit buffs are very nearly what I've been suggesting personally so no complaints there the overall trend towards removing even more eHP from Logi suits in "upcoming updates" rather than fixing the weak Assault suit bonuses concerns me more than a little. Non-'slayer' logi already have trouble surviving while actively doing their job and no amount of equipment buff is going to change that (longer range on the repair tool may be a mild exception to that statement but nothing to write home about. A substantial buff to injector range could help greatly and if that's coming then the race which gets it will be more protected. ) Two more fundamental flaws with equipment based skills for logi Equipment WP scaling is still broken (until this is fixed most buffs to equipment will actually nerf earnings for support logi by lowering their overall potential. If the new WP system is rolled out with these updates then this won't be a problem, until then it is.) Constrains player choice - I'm not talking about trying to play "slayer" here, I'm talking about how many types of equipment there are to support with and how if you bind each race to one type you artificially force players into builds with those specific types. In addition to making innovation more difficult by constraining equipment loadouts, a problem that will only get worse as more equipment is added to the game, you also make fittings more transparent on the battlefield weakening tactical options. Logi being yellow is one thing, logi being yellow and everyone knowing that X race equals Y equipment is something else again. Don't like footholds? Target the "uplink" logi. In a protracted firefight or trying to take out an entrenched position? Target the repair and revive logi. Want to be a 'slayer' in a logi suit? Proto the nanohive logi and run a core flaylock Further there has been no counter balance that the Logi suits gain to compensate for the role wide nerf. Prior to these changes the two suits base stats were balanced when fittings were included. I spent a lot of time on the forums asking anyone to construct a Logi suit that was more powerful than an Assault suit of the same race after bringing the logi up match the on board values of the assault. The net result of the few fittings I ever saw (mostly constructed by myself or some of the folks in the shields vs armor balance threads) is that logi suits prior to the change would cost more in SP and ISK than an assault suit doing the same thing and would pay extra on top of that in the cases where they might be able to exceed the assault. The racial skill buffs were a problem, mostly the Cal suit bonus and the buffs for the assault suits generally but those require skill reworks not role wide suit nerfs. So, what has been added role wide to compensate for the nerfs that are now creating an imbalance within the medium frames (or is the plan to never fix the racial skills and use the suit changes to counter that? ). Ok I'm leaving this here because it's already long, but in short the current changes seem generally called for/positive but the described/intended balance presented in the Dev Blog seems to be ignoring the feedback forums and several key longstanding balance aspects. CCP needs to seriously reconsider this course and I hope there is someone on the CPM who understands playing support logi well enough to keep this problem at the forefront of discussion regarding suit balance. My 0.02 ISK, Sincerely, Been playing support Logi since closed beta
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1363	Posted - 2013.08.01 04:12:00 - [13] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: RedZer0 MK1 wrote: Logistics. When starting this game last year there wasn't any doubt that's what I'd be playing. Yet, the recent changes got me thinking. If the main purpose of the 'Logistic' class is to provide support with equipment, why not push that? What I'm getting at is the bonus for being Logistic doesn't make sense. Even the planned bonuses fall short of the mark. The solution is simple, the racial bonus for gallente should be the Logistic bonus as a class. And this is coming from someone who relishes the armor reps, but being able to bring better equipment makes more sense. I am not suggesting that CPU/PG stay the same for logi suits either. A appropriate reduction in CPU/PG would be in order. Personally I think the role bonus for all logistics suits should be the Gallente one, although I do believe all the suits should get a passive armor repair, specially the Gallente and Amarr suits. I could wholeheartedly support the vision BL4CKST4R is proposing here so long as one aspect is made clear. The current Gal bonus is mechanically the weakest among the logi skill buffs. So far in my testing I've yet to find a way that the Gal bonus stands up to the others, a major flaw in it is that eHP > meta level of equipment carried. If you're dead, let alone dieing a lot - which causes the same thing at a higher ISK cost, then it doesn't matter what equipment you have fitted your team isn't going to be benefiting from the majority of its utility/tactical value. It is also important to note that the lower the base on suit values for PG and CPU the less actual benefit is gained from things such as fittings skills and thus the higher the equipment fittings reduction value would have to become to even break even. Here's an example with fictional numbers: Current Amarr logi has 150 CPU --> 195 CPU with max skills. Logi gains no equipment discount. Proposed Amarr logi new CPU value 100 -- > 130, total fittings loss of 65 CPU Logi gains a 50% reduction in equipment fittings costs - required base equipment fittings cost to break even 130 CPU. An actual example Amarr Logi CPU 390 -- > 507 (with skills) Let's say all suits suffer a CPU reduction as per the Cal Logi change Base CPU is now 350 -> 455 (with skills) --> Net loss 52 CPU Gal racial savings of 25% applied requires equipment CPU fittings cost of 100 [u]just to break even with old values[/b] That means you could be fitting a proto Uplink and Injector before breaking even much less seeing any actual utility (note: highest CPU uplink would put the value at 119 granting a net savings of -4.75 CPU assuming max levels. Add the Allotek Nanohive (R) nano hive which has the highest CPU cost in the range at 88 CPU equals a total CPU savings of -26.75 at max level) Assuming that best case scenario your net gain of 26.75 CPU that's approximately 27 CPU short of fitting a single complex shield extender. *Put another way, if we increase the skill buff to a 50% savings the Amarr logi would gain enough roughly CPU at max skills to fit a single* mod.** Now granted the logi with 4 equipment slots will benefit more from this buff as they can fit an additional piece of equipment, but that just means that unlike the current reps the equipment buff wouldn't benefit all logi equally unless the values are tailored to each suit not the role (and then it's a subjective tug of war regarding how much more savings is required to counterbalance the effective savings of having more equipment slots). In short the flavor of the bonus is great but the actual mechanical value is, in its current state, both messy and underwhelming. 0.02 ISK Cross
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1457	Posted - 2013.08.01 06:01:00 - [14] - Quote Someone had suggested at some point that you could put hard restrictions on equipment by role. It goes against the free-form do-whatever approach, but there's some merit to the idea. I wouldn't restrict any current equipment though. I recall devs at Fanfest talking about nanite injector conferring bonuses (to speed, shields, whatever) temporarily upon revive, but presumably only with certain injectors. Imagine if there was a separate class of injectors that did that, but was only usable by Logis. Similarly, our weapon upgrade mods are limited to damage. Imagine an array of weapon mods that did more than just +10% damage (+dam % shield -dam% armor... or whatever). However, the full range of weapon mods wasn't open to those outside the Assault class. Etc.... special cloak mods only open to scouts, damage resist mods only open to heavies, etc. They could accomplish the same thing with some sort of fitting bonuses, but it mostly becomes a matter of mechanics to achieve to same end at that point. I prefer the more interesting bonuses like hacking, +5hp/s armor, etc. to the very dull fitting bonuses. I'd prefer suit stats and fitting bonuses were created separate and as a blanket effect rather than made the elements that made the variants unique.
RedZer0 MK1 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 8	Posted - 2013.08.01 07:10:00 - [15] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: RedZer0 MK1 wrote: Logistics. When starting this game last year there wasn't any doubt that's what I'd be playing. Yet, the recent changes got me thinking. If the main purpose of the 'Logistic' class is to provide support with equipment, why not push that? What I'm getting at is the bonus for being Logistic doesn't make sense. Even the planned bonuses fall short of the mark. The solution is simple, the racial bonus for gallente should be the Logistic bonus as a class. And this is coming from someone who relishes the armor reps, but being able to bring better equipment makes more sense. I am not suggesting that CPU/PG stay the same for logi suits either. A appropriate reduction in CPU/PG would be in order. Personally I think the role bonus for all logistics suits should be the Gallente one, although I do believe all the suits should get a passive armor repair, specially the Gallente and Amarr suits. I could wholeheartedly support the vision BL4CKST4R is proposing here so long as one aspect is made clear. The current Gal bonus is mechanically the weakest among the logi skill buffs. So far in my testing I've yet to find a way that the Gal bonus stands up to the others, a major flaw in it is that eHP > meta level of equipment carried. If you're dead, let alone dieing a lot - which causes the same thing at a higher ISK cost, then it doesn't matter what equipment you have fitted your team isn't going to be benefiting from the majority of its utility/tactical value. It is also important to note that the lower the base on suit values for PG and CPU the less actual benefit is gained from things such as fittings skills and thus the higher the equipment fittings reduction value would have to become to even break even. Here's an example with fictional numbers: Current Amarr logi has 150 CPU --> 195 CPU with max skills. Logi gains no equipment discount. Proposed Amarr logi new CPU value 100 -- > 130, total fittings loss of 65 CPU Logi gains a 50% reduction in equipment fittings costs - required base equipment fittings cost to break even 130 CPU. An actual example Amarr Logi CPU 390 -- > 507 (with skills) Let's say all suits suffer a CPU reduction as per the Cal Logi change Base CPU is now 350 -> 455 (with skills) --> Net loss 52 CPU Gal racial savings of 25% applied requires equipment CPU fittings cost of 100 [u]just to break even with old values[/b] That means you could be fitting a proto Uplink and Injector before breaking even much less seeing any actual utility (note: highest CPU uplink would put the value at 119 granting a net savings of -4.75 CPU assuming max levels. Add the Allotek Nanohive (R) nano hive which has the highest CPU cost in the range at 88 CPU equals a total CPU savings of -26.75 at max level) Assuming that best case scenario your net gain of 26.75 CPU that's approximately 27 CPU short of fitting a single complex shield extender. *Put another way, if we increase the skill buff to a 50% savings the Amarr logi would gain enough roughly CPU at max skills to fit a single* mod.** Now granted the logi with 4 equipment slots will benefit more from this buff as they can fit an additional piece of equipment, but that just means that unlike the current reps the equipment buff wouldn't benefit all logi equally unless the values are tailored to each suit not the role (and then it's a subjective tug of war regarding how much more savings is required to counterbalance the effective savings of having more equipment slots). In short the flavor of the bonus is great but the actual mechanical value is, in its current state, both messy and underwhelming. 0.02 ISK Cross I understand your logic, but I'm not suggesting a huge drop to CPU/pg. I haven't done the math myself to find a good value across the suits. I was thinking perhaps 30% reduction would be great, if the base CPU/PG were handle correctly.


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