DUST Search - Logistic Role Bonus Change

Cross Atu wrote:

The Cal logi suit is expected and not uncalled for. The Amarr suit buffs are very nearly what I've been suggesting personally so no complaints there Blink

the overall trend towards removing even more eHP from Logi suits in "upcoming updates" rather than fixing the weak Assault suit bonuses concerns me more than a little. Non-'slayer' logi already have trouble surviving while actively doing their job and no amount of equipment buff is going to change that (longer range on the repair tool may be a mild exception to that statement but nothing to write home about. A substantial buff to injector range could help greatly and if that's coming then the race which gets it will be more protected. )

Two more fundamental flaws with equipment based skills for logi

Equipment WP scaling is still broken (until this is fixed most buffs to equipment will actually nerf earnings for support logi by lowering their overall potential. If the new WP system is rolled out with these updates then this won't be a problem, until then it is.)
Constrains player choice - I'm not talking about trying to play "slayer" here, I'm talking about how many types of equipment there are to support with and how if you bind each race to one type you artificially force players into builds with those specific types. In addition to making innovation more difficult by constraining equipment loadouts, a problem that will only get worse as more equipment is added to the game, you also make fittings more transparent on the battlefield weakening tactical options. Logi being yellow is one thing, logi being yellow and everyone knowing that X race equals Y equipment is something else again. Don't like footholds? Target the "uplink" logi. In a protracted firefight or trying to take out an entrenched position? Target the repair and revive logi. Want to be a 'slayer' in a logi suit? Proto the nanohive logi and run a core flaylock

Further there has been no counter balance that the Logi suits gain to compensate for the role wide nerf. Prior to these changes the two suits base stats were balanced when fittings were included. I spent a lot of time on the forums asking anyone to construct a Logi suit that was more powerful than an Assault suit of the same race after bringing the logi up match the on board values of the assault. The net result of the few fittings I ever saw (mostly constructed by myself or some of the folks in the shields vs armor balance threads) is that logi suits prior to the change would cost more in SP and ISK than an assault suit doing the same thing and would pay extra on top of that in the cases where they might be able to exceed the assault.

The racial skill buffs were a problem, mostly the Cal suit bonus and the buffs for the assault suits generally but those require skill reworks not role wide suit nerfs. So, what has been added role wide to compensate for the nerfs that are now creating an imbalance within the medium frames (or is the plan to never fix the racial skills and use the suit changes to counter that?

).

Ok I'm leaving this here because it's already long, but in short the current changes seem generally called for/positive but the described/intended balance presented in the Dev Blog seems to be ignoring the feedback forums and several key longstanding balance aspects. CCP needs to seriously reconsider this course and I hope there is someone on the CPM who understands playing support logi well enough to keep this problem at the forefront of discussion regarding suit balance.

My 0.02 ISK,

Sincerely,
Been playing support Logi since closed beta


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Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1362	Posted - 2013.08.01 03:29:00 - [1] - Quote Quoted from the Dev Blog post Cross Atu wrote: The Cal logi suit is expected and not uncalled for. The Amarr suit buffs are very nearly what I've been suggesting personally so no complaints there the overall trend towards removing even more eHP from Logi suits in "upcoming updates" rather than fixing the weak Assault suit bonuses concerns me more than a little. Non-'slayer' logi already have trouble surviving while actively doing their job and no amount of equipment buff is going to change that (longer range on the repair tool may be a mild exception to that statement but nothing to write home about. A substantial buff to injector range could help greatly and if that's coming then the race which gets it will be more protected. ) Two more fundamental flaws with equipment based skills for logi Equipment WP scaling is still broken (until this is fixed most buffs to equipment will actually nerf earnings for support logi by lowering their overall potential. If the new WP system is rolled out with these updates then this won't be a problem, until then it is.) Constrains player choice - I'm not talking about trying to play "slayer" here, I'm talking about how many types of equipment there are to support with and how if you bind each race to one type you artificially force players into builds with those specific types. In addition to making innovation more difficult by constraining equipment loadouts, a problem that will only get worse as more equipment is added to the game, you also make fittings more transparent on the battlefield weakening tactical options. Logi being yellow is one thing, logi being yellow and everyone knowing that X race equals Y equipment is something else again. Don't like footholds? Target the "uplink" logi. In a protracted firefight or trying to take out an entrenched position? Target the repair and revive logi. Want to be a 'slayer' in a logi suit? Proto the nanohive logi and run a core flaylock Further there has been no counter balance that the Logi suits gain to compensate for the role wide nerf. Prior to these changes the two suits base stats were balanced when fittings were included. I spent a lot of time on the forums asking anyone to construct a Logi suit that was more powerful than an Assault suit of the same race after bringing the logi up match the on board values of the assault. The net result of the few fittings I ever saw (mostly constructed by myself or some of the folks in the shields vs armor balance threads) is that logi suits prior to the change would cost more in SP and ISK than an assault suit doing the same thing and would pay extra on top of that in the cases where they might be able to exceed the assault. The racial skill buffs were a problem, mostly the Cal suit bonus and the buffs for the assault suits generally but those require skill reworks not role wide suit nerfs. So, what has been added role wide to compensate for the nerfs that are now creating an imbalance within the medium frames (or is the plan to never fix the racial skills and use the suit changes to counter that? ). Ok I'm leaving this here because it's already long, but in short the current changes seem generally called for/positive but the described/intended balance presented in the Dev Blog seems to be ignoring the feedback forums and several key longstanding balance aspects. CCP needs to seriously reconsider this course and I hope there is someone on the CPM who understands playing support logi well enough to keep this problem at the forefront of discussion regarding suit balance. My 0.02 ISK, Sincerely, Been playing support Logi since closed beta
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1363	Posted - 2013.08.01 04:12:00 - [2] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: RedZer0 MK1 wrote: Logistics. When starting this game last year there wasn't any doubt that's what I'd be playing. Yet, the recent changes got me thinking. If the main purpose of the 'Logistic' class is to provide support with equipment, why not push that? What I'm getting at is the bonus for being Logistic doesn't make sense. Even the planned bonuses fall short of the mark. The solution is simple, the racial bonus for gallente should be the Logistic bonus as a class. And this is coming from someone who relishes the armor reps, but being able to bring better equipment makes more sense. I am not suggesting that CPU/PG stay the same for logi suits either. A appropriate reduction in CPU/PG would be in order. Personally I think the role bonus for all logistics suits should be the Gallente one, although I do believe all the suits should get a passive armor repair, specially the Gallente and Amarr suits. I could wholeheartedly support the vision BL4CKST4R is proposing here so long as one aspect is made clear. The current Gal bonus is mechanically the weakest among the logi skill buffs. So far in my testing I've yet to find a way that the Gal bonus stands up to the others, a major flaw in it is that eHP > meta level of equipment carried. If you're dead, let alone dieing a lot - which causes the same thing at a higher ISK cost, then it doesn't matter what equipment you have fitted your team isn't going to be benefiting from the majority of its utility/tactical value. It is also important to note that the lower the base on suit values for PG and CPU the less actual benefit is gained from things such as fittings skills and thus the higher the equipment fittings reduction value would have to become to even break even. Here's an example with fictional numbers: Current Amarr logi has 150 CPU --> 195 CPU with max skills. Logi gains no equipment discount. Proposed Amarr logi new CPU value 100 -- > 130, total fittings loss of 65 CPU Logi gains a 50% reduction in equipment fittings costs - required base equipment fittings cost to break even 130 CPU. An actual example Amarr Logi CPU 390 -- > 507 (with skills) Let's say all suits suffer a CPU reduction as per the Cal Logi change Base CPU is now 350 -> 455 (with skills) --> Net loss 52 CPU Gal racial savings of 25% applied requires equipment CPU fittings cost of 100 [u]just to break even with old values[/b] That means you could be fitting a proto Uplink and Injector before breaking even much less seeing any actual utility (note: highest CPU uplink would put the value at 119 granting a net savings of -4.75 CPU assuming max levels. Add the Allotek Nanohive (R) nano hive which has the highest CPU cost in the range at 88 CPU equals a total CPU savings of -26.75 at max level) Assuming that best case scenario your net gain of 26.75 CPU that's approximately 27 CPU short of fitting a single complex shield extender. *Put another way, if we increase the skill buff to a 50% savings the Amarr logi would gain enough roughly CPU at max skills to fit a single* mod.** Now granted the logi with 4 equipment slots will benefit more from this buff as they can fit an additional piece of equipment, but that just means that unlike the current reps the equipment buff wouldn't benefit all logi equally unless the values are tailored to each suit not the role (and then it's a subjective tug of war regarding how much more savings is required to counterbalance the effective savings of having more equipment slots). In short the flavor of the bonus is great but the actual mechanical value is, in its current state, both messy and underwhelming. 0.02 ISK Cross