DUST Search - [request] Tired of the AR Spam

semperfi1999 wrote:

I used the AR exclusively until the most recent respec...then I used the scrambler. I am confident that I know what I am talking about after months of AR use and a couple months of ASCR use under my belt.....but you want the numbers....not sure why you cant compare this yourself but here it is.

ASCR
Pros: Higher per shot dmg, better accuracy, higher mag size, more max ammo, faster reload time, less CPU, recoil/disperion same as fully skilled AR,

Cons: slightly lower DPS from the AR (465.89 DPS for the ASCR vs 467.50 for the AR), slightly lower RPM can overheat, 80% dmg to armor (difference of 2 dmg per shot from the AR)

AR
Pros: higher RPM , no possible way to overheat, less PG, 90% dmg to armor

Cons: Lower per shot dmg, lower accuracy, lower mag size, less max ammo, slower reload time, more CPU, must spend 1.5 mill extra SP to obtain same recoil/dispersion that ASCR starts with, iron sight, 10% bonus to shield dmg

Now the only thing that cannot be quantified is whether the hip fire on the AR is slightly better than the ASCR or not. I have tried both and honestly its hard to tell but if I was forced to give this to one of the guns I would probably lean a little more towards the AR having a slight advantage in hipfire....but its only a very slight advantage.

As you can see from the stats the ASCR in general comes out ahead of the AR every single time. Yes there are some things the AR is better at I would never debate that. But even in the areas where the AR is better the difference is pretty small......nigh insignificant since everyone misses some shots so noone truly sees that DPS on an enemy. But the areas where the ASCR is better than the AR the difference can be very significant. Total possible dmg from the AR before reload is 2244 but the ASCR is 2851.2....that is a difference of over 600 dmg before reloading....that is possibly another kill. Reload is .5 seconds faster for the ASCR.....the CPU/PG just depends on your suit if you can take more CPU or more PG....so thats not really a defining issue between the weapons as it depends on your specific build. Any place where the ASCR has less dmg it is lower dmg by 2 points...but where the dmg is greater for the ASCR its a difference of 6.38 (using base info not counting any proficiencies so this difference becomes larger as proficiencies are included). The only significant supposed downside for the ASCR is that it can overheat but seriously who has ever overheated the ASCR on accident? Its almost impossible to do on accident. Also the AR downside is as it fires continuously the recoil/dispersion becomes greater and greater.

Honestly if you cant admit that the ASCR is a better weapon (maybe not your preference but just based on stats) then you just blind. The ASCR is the better assault than the assault rifle is (which is supposed to be the gallente version of the weapon LOL).


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Theresa Rohk The Cuddlefish Templis Dragonaors 11	Posted - 2013.08.01 18:30:00 - [1] - Quote The issue isn't the spam of blaster rifles, that is merely sympomatic of the real problem which is the imbalance of the rifles. Part of this is due to their only being 2 of the 4 total rifles available yet. Part of this is due to the basic starting militia fits favoring the blaster rifle fit over the scrambler rifle. And a large part of this is due to the inherent, "never not" reason to use the duvolle. As is, there is no scenario in which the duvolle isn't one of the best weapons. Close quarters, at a distance, accuracy, high damage and rate of fire, large clip size, tracking, it excels at everything. Maybe not as good as some specialized weapons in specific scenarios, but being 90% as good in 100% of the fields, is better than being 100% as good in 20% of the field. There are a number of things that should change to resolve this. 1. Give a reason to use other weapons. ShotGuns and HMGs should by default be better in closed in areas or up close. The scrambler rifle needs to have its kick removed while zoomed in (there's no reason for this, and the Duvolle/laser rifles don't have one). 2. The Duvolle, and other blaster rifles in general, need some sort of draw back in comparison, be it a higher kick than the scrambler, a shorter effective range (and I mean actually effective, see below) smaller clip size or poor'er zoomed in accuracy, or any number of other ideas. By effective range I mean range that is actually seen in game, 40m sounds short, but when you play the game rarely (unless sniping) do you see targets that are outside of your effective range. Using the scrambler rifle, you rarely have a chance to use your higher range at an advantage, because maps are generally closer than your effect range. If you do find that chance, your damage isn't high enough to kill someone before they seek cover. So, what is thus the point of that? You end up needing to use a charged shot to score head shots, effectively sniping, to have real range advantage. Which asks the question, why bother when the blaster rifle is 90% as good in almost every other scenario? 3. The shield discrepancy and the Scrambler Rifle. The other aspect, is that currently the only other rifles, the Scrambler and laser, get a distinct DPS decrease when you hit armor. The blaster rifles continue to chug through both shield and armor without consequence. This is another reason to not use energy weapons, as this fact isn't compensated by a higher DPS overall. So likely, if using the SCR rifle, you end up with a lot of enemies with 70% armor left and no shields, and no kills. The one advantage the energy weapons do have, is the ability to charge up a shot, and deal extra damage. Yet if you try to capitalize on this extra damage, the weapon overheats, damaging you, and ruining your ability to continue to do damage. You can't do anything else while the gun cools, you can't swap weapons, you can't throw grenades, you can only run around and hope that A, they don't kill you in this time, or B, they don't get away from you in this time. Why, would you handicap yourself with such a mechanic, that has no real advantage to it? The assault scrambler variant removes this ability for a fully automatic firing, but the kick and DPS issues aren't compensated in regard to the GEK/Duvolle, so why would you bother using it? Overall, there are distinct reasons NOT to use the other rifles, but no real reason to not use the Blaster rifle. Hence, the never not issue. Players seek to maximize their efficiency and have thus specialized into the weapon that gives them the best return, the Duvolle. Making the best gun, even better, and the worse guns, even worse.
Theresa Rohk The Cuddlefish Templis Dragonaors 11	Posted - 2013.08.01 20:41:00 - [2] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: What you say sounds really good....only your information is all wrong. The difference between the dmg of the Duvolle and the ASCR against armor is 2 dmg per shot. Recoil on the ASCR??? Are you kidding me?? Thee is more recoil on the duvolle than the ASCR. ASCR from the starts gets the same recoil/dispersion as a fully upgraded duvolle (all recoil/dispersion skills upgraded). Your initial reasonings were better. Everyone starts with a blaster rifle and everyone learns to play with this role first. So it makes sense that more ppl spec into this weapon and dont move on from there. This has much less to do with the AR and more to do with CCP prebuilt suits. If anything you can argue this point and I would not debate it because its true. Just like the ASCR the AR is good in almost every situation so yea alot of ppl gravitate towards the good at all master of none weapon. BTW I am an ASCR user....before that a SCR user. So I know what I am talking about when I say I melt heavies faster than I ever did with the AR. The bonus dmg that the ASCR does to shield more than makes up for the 2 less dmg to armor it does. Show me numbers? Or go and play on both? Because I have, and the ASCR is much harder to maintain via recoil. This may be do to the increased zoom on the ASCR scope in relation to the iron sites of the Duvolle, but no, I disagree flatly unless you have stats on the weapons themselves to prove to me otherwise. And again, 2 dmg per shot may not seem like much, but look at the rate of fire, and the overheating aspect, why then choose the ASCR over the duvolle. The point being there needs to be some drawback from the duvolle if you want to see other weapons being used. Currently there isn't, and using anything else artificially handicaps you for no reason. semperfi1999 wrote: Buster take a note from this gal. FTFY.
Theresa Rohk The Cuddlefish Templis Dragonaors 15	Posted - 2013.08.08 17:10:00 - [3] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: I used the AR exclusively until the most recent respec...then I used the scrambler. I am confident that I know what I am talking about after months of AR use and a couple months of ASCR use under my belt.....but you want the numbers....not sure why you cant compare this yourself but here it is. ASCR Pros: Higher per shot dmg, better accuracy, higher mag size, more max ammo, faster reload time, less CPU, recoil/disperion same as fully skilled AR, Cons: slightly lower DPS from the AR (465.89 DPS for the ASCR vs 467.50 for the AR), slightly lower RPM can overheat, 80% dmg to armor (difference of 2 dmg per shot from the AR) AR Pros: higher RPM , no possible way to overheat, less PG, 90% dmg to armor Cons: Lower per shot dmg, lower accuracy, lower mag size, less max ammo, slower reload time, more CPU, must spend 1.5 mill extra SP to obtain same recoil/dispersion that ASCR starts with, iron sight, 10% bonus to shield dmg Now the only thing that cannot be quantified is whether the hip fire on the AR is slightly better than the ASCR or not. I have tried both and honestly its hard to tell but if I was forced to give this to one of the guns I would probably lean a little more towards the AR having a slight advantage in hipfire....but its only a very slight advantage. As you can see from the stats the ASCR in general comes out ahead of the AR every single time. Yes there are some things the AR is better at I would never debate that. But even in the areas where the AR is better the difference is pretty small......nigh insignificant since everyone misses some shots so noone truly sees that DPS on an enemy. But the areas where the ASCR is better than the AR the difference can be very significant. Total possible dmg from the AR before reload is 2244 but the ASCR is 2851.2....that is a difference of over 600 dmg before reloading....that is possibly another kill. Reload is .5 seconds faster for the ASCR.....the CPU/PG just depends on your suit if you can take more CPU or more PG....so thats not really a defining issue between the weapons as it depends on your specific build. Any place where the ASCR has less dmg it is lower dmg by 2 points...but where the dmg is greater for the ASCR its a difference of 6.38 (using base info not counting any proficiencies so this difference becomes larger as proficiencies are included). The only significant supposed downside for the ASCR is that it can overheat but seriously who has ever overheated the ASCR on accident? Its almost impossible to do on accident. Also the AR downside is as it fires continuously the recoil/dispersion becomes greater and greater. Honestly if you cant admit that the ASCR is a better weapon (maybe not your preference but just based on stats) then you just blind. The ASCR is the better assault than the assault rifle is (which is supposed to be the gallente version of the weapon LOL). I've removed the opinions you threw out as facts from the quote. But "Better" is an opinion, and I was also asking on numbers on recoil. Zoom in and you can fire with the AR without the gun moving, even if you are. The ASCR hops all over the place regardless of how you are moving. This makes it much harder to use the longer range it has. It is also something you won't see in numbers. Your numbers are also disingenuous. You can't compare straight DPS because half of that being applied is reduced by 20% on the scrambler rifles. You would only see direct comparisons if you were shooting at a target with no armor and only shields, which doesn't exist. So, a straight DPS comparison is fallacious. The ASCR might as well have no overheat mechanic, I've used it a lot and never gotten it to overheat on my assault suit. The regular SCR however is ridiculous in how easy it is to overheat. My point, however, was that the advantages supposedly given to the SCR variants aren't that well applied in current game maps and scenarios. Longer range is useless if you can't apply it (see recoil when zoomed for ASCR), and a built in drawback function on a gun that just barely comes up even with the AR. So why use it at all? Yah you may have a slight DPS advantage, but the SCR is semi-auto, meaning your RPM is never going to be the maximum, and the overheat mechanic full on prevents you from hitting it anyway. So your total DPS is never actually going to be what you're saying it is. Regarding your whining about the 1.8m SP needed to invest in dispersion/accuracy, the SCR basically needs the Amarr Assault suits to get any sort of DPS without overheating, so I consider that an even trade as it binds you to using Amarr suits, and all the imbalance issues of that ( guess you Amarr people just get one less slot on your suits, cause lulz balance -CCP). That is an entire suit you HAVE to spec into just to use a gun properly, to try and sort of match the default assault rifle. Yah, I consider that an even trade for a modicum of a slightly potential higher DPS that is never actually seen in game. Zendeal wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: lol let me show the power of my Proto SCR and ASCR You'd do better with the AR. Like I said, there are people that don't use the AR, but it's not because the AR isn't the best gun in the game. Sooooo true. What the hell are the AR drawbacks? I get MD qqing from player, I get 18 freaking ammo that's nearly 5 kills max before needing a nano. TAC gets 300 rounds with the games best range not incl sniper and no overheat mechanic? Jeez. Don't think ill e going back. Key point as I said, there aren't any. There's no reason to use any other weapon.