So, every other weapon in this game gets nerfed just as soon as the AR nerf brigade gets going.

OP or Not, the AR is ruining Dust. This weapon is so overused it's just stupid. The weapon, in pubs, accounts for as many kills as 11 of the 14 weapons combined. Combined.

Does that sound like balance or diversity? no, it isn't.

CCP - Are other weapons supposed to compete with the AR? They aren't.

It's about damn time that CCP approaches balance with, you know, usage balance in mind.

Of course the AR is popular. It's easy to use, reliable, and many players will choose to invest SP in it before considering a second weapon to skill into simply because of its simplicity and familiarity. You said it yourself, you're complaining about overuse and not imbalance. From my perspective, you're also wildly exaggerating.

Expecting every gun to be represented equally among the player base is pretty ridiculous. If I ran a poll of everyone's favorite ice cream, animal, cartoon show, book, superhero, whatever, not one of these would receive equal representation throughout. Why should random chance or even balanced weaponry somehow result in balanced diversity in weapon usage?

(at) Meeko Fent

From yesterday my deaths was like:

10 Sniper rifle
7 SR
5-6 TANK/blaster
5 LAV-bump
5 AR
4 OB
2 RAIL/Instalation
2 LASER
2 MD
1 HMG

NERF SNIPERS!!! TANKS! OB!! (joke) .... wait where are AR? No flylock ?

1. AR was nerfed enough.
2. Looking at all (yours list) I will be sugest nerf rocks... there are plenty of it... and I cant climb on them.

I think you'll find so many AR kills because the AR is the most widely used weapon. Why is it widely used? Because that is what the AR is designed for, lots of people run assault and, strangely enough, the ASSAULT RIFLE is useful for assault players. Who would have thought it?

The AR is the mainstay of any army, real or in games. Do you see the World Powers banning the AR because too many people use it in battle? NO!

The ARs aren't OP they are just the baseline weapon in this game and every other FPS in the universe. After the TAC nerf you don't see any bull$hit kills like you did with the flaylock.

A rapid-fire weapon that throws small high speed projectiles is just the most practical and adaptable weapon on the battlefield. They are meant to be the go to choice when you are facing a broad range of situations where you need a weapon that is versatile. Decent but not exceptional range, good ammo capacity, ability to burst and spray, etc.

They aren't meant to be the master of all and the specialist weapons in Dust are often underpowered or fail to shine in their area of expertise. For example, the laser rifle is insufficiently good at long range to offset its lack of versatility. This however is not the fault of the AR, its just that those other weapons aren't developed enough.

The reason you see lots of AR kills is not because it is OP but because players have made the choice to go for familiarity and versatility at the cost of range/AE/whatever.

Even if every other weapon was significantly buffed people would still use the AR because it is versatile.

/rage
So, whenever it comes to nerfing any other gun, no matter if it was OP or not, the ARs spam the forums, and get it nerfed into to bowels of weapon hell, but nobody look at the AR....

The gun makes other guns obsolete!

Why use the SMG when you can use the AR and get comparable results with 4 times the range?

When heavies start dropping the HMG for the AR, there's a problem!

When CCP adapts game design of suits for its use, there's a problem!

Don't you think?!

/end rage

CCP would probably try to nerf the rock before they would think about touching the AR. They're probably afraid of they ARs screeching they will make on the forums.

This is untrue on almost every level.

First off, the AR is not the most widely used weapon in a lot of FPS games. Mostly older ones though.

Second, the AR is not used by western militaries because it is a bullet hose, like in Dust. It's used because it has accurate fire at fighting ranges, and can be put in full auto in emergencies, but modern warfighters are trained to fire short bursts almost all the time.

Also, the AR carries far too many rounds if you want to compare to real world weapons. (and other weapons in Dust)

Also, the argument here is that the AR, as seen in Dust, amounts to kills equivalent to 11 of the 14 available weapons in game. That kind of overuse is killing diversity in Dust, and ruining the game. It doesn't matter why it's so overused, only that it needs to be fixed.

The AR seems to ignore HP stacking in every way. I have an idea lower RoF or Damage per round. Problem solved.

Or even make it harder to aim.....



EDIT: Hey someone post the base damage of AR round and multiply it by 750/60. Now take that number and see how long it takes to shred anything with less than a 1000 HP. Now that is an issue because the weapon actually gets better with more skills and it takes ALOT of time to hit 1k HP.

i think the range and all that stuff is pretty good... it is the backbone weapon... i just think if the clip size were decreased, it would be fine... if you can kill a heavy with one clip then decrease it... the only way you should be able to kill a heavy with one clip is if it was all headshots and he was an idiot for standing still, so he deserves it...

i say one thing at a time, and clip size would fix most problems i think.

-it would be less viable at CQC due to the lack of clip size so they can spray and pray for 10 min on one clip
-it would force players to look for cover because they will have to reload after like 30-40 rounds, so it will make fights much more strategic and frustrating
-the player will have to aim more or shoot less
-you cant take out a heavy with a clip in only body hits

i like the range, even when facing them, its fair, its supposed to be a an all around weapon that is not the best at anything. and i think a 30-40 round clip would fix that

breach rifles can stay the way they are, they pretty much suck unless you sneak up on people

Your argument is invalid against me...I am not an AR user but an ASCR user. It would benefit me for the AR to be nerfed because then I would destroy AR users easier than I do now. Once again you are arguing from the wrong position. If you want to argue this point you have to bring attention to the fact that the game pretty much forces everyone to use the AR exclusively for the first month or so of playing. You need to go to CCP and tell them they need to give options of starter fits with all types of weapons not just the AR.


That being said you may not ever actually achieve the "diversity" you are wanting even if you nerf the AR. Lets say you make the AR worthless in an attempt to force ppl into other weapons to create more "diversity". New players are forced to use AR...with its being worthless the majority of new players would quit before even trying to understand the game. Alot of AR only players will simply leave and no longer play the game. A small number of players will start to spec into different weapons....and another number of players will just continue to use the AR anyway. In the end the ONLY thing you have done is lower the number of ppl playing this game....and you cannot even guarantee that the weapon kills will diversify anyway.

As I have stated before you are going about this the wrong way. You are making illogical arguments and backing those arguments with fallacies in your arguments and bad data gathering techiniques....including assuming correlation = causation (which if you really are a scientist as you say then you know this is not true). If you want to make this argument petition CCP to give more starter fit options for ppl to get to use different weapons when they first start playing the game. Heck if you made this type of petition I would even sign it because its TRUE and CCP should do something about this. But that still doesnt mean you can force diversity in weaponry usage. Next your going to argue that X racial suit is overused and should be nerfed so that you see a greater diversity in suits used in battle.........

lmao thats full of ****... Gaylocker

Um you realize that with that score...............unless the enemy was redlined and you never saw anyone because of it.......that is a horrible score...I feel bad when I go 12-2 because I played badly that game. LOL if you are still using the Tac.....Noone has even come close to killing me with the Tac since the Tac nerf. If you actually come from using the MD I dont u/s how your kills arent more? I speced 1 lvl into the MD to verify it was OP and LOLed and I facestomped every protosuit I faced.....flux nades???? Only need them if there is a large group of enemies otherwise the MD easily destroys all in 3-4 shots (unless they are a heavy).

For such a nerf to apply it would mean that the range should NOT be nerfed. Also the other rifles would have to have their damage decreased accordingly. For example the ASCR would have to get its damage nerfed to 29.16. Also this does not account for the TAC and SCR which would now far out DPS these two guns. I think the best thing is to reduce the range of the AR but increase or keep the DPS (lower damage increase ROF), slightly reduce the range and keep DPS of the breach, and keep the range and reduce the DPS of the TAC AR. That way all 3 weapon variants will excel within their own ranges, and not be carbon copies of each other with just different rates of fire....

And like I said a million times over, DPS does not make a better weapon; In an MMO a high DPS weapon is usually not better than a low DPS weapon, for example a pair of daggers vs a warhammer, the daggers have high damage potential but due to their low range it always puts the user in harms way, while the warhammer has longer range and high spike damage so they can get a couple shots in that will possibly be lethal unless the dagger user is skilled enough to close distance while mitigating damage but at the same time the warhammer user can be skilled enough to obliterate the dagger user before he can close distance. This is the difference between high DPS and low DPS, the dagger and the warhammer, the blaster cannon and the rail gun. If you were to compare the blaster cannon vs the rail gun, the blaster cannon has a DPS of 750 while a rail gun has a DPS of 614, but in a fire fight who would win? Well the answer is who has the range advantage.

I've removed the opinions you threw out as facts from the quote.

But "Better" is an opinion, and I was also asking on numbers on recoil. Zoom in and you can fire with the AR without the gun moving, even if you are. The ASCR hops all over the place regardless of how you are moving. This makes it much harder to use the longer range it has. It is also something you won't see in numbers. Your numbers are also disingenuous. You can't compare straight DPS because half of that being applied is reduced by 20% on the scrambler rifles. You would only see direct comparisons if you were shooting at a target with no armor and only shields, which doesn't exist. So, a straight DPS comparison is fallacious.

The ASCR might as well have no overheat mechanic, I've used it a lot and never gotten it to overheat on my assault suit. The regular SCR however is ridiculous in how easy it is to overheat. My point, however, was that the advantages supposedly given to the SCR variants aren't that well applied in current game maps and scenarios. Longer range is useless if you can't apply it (see recoil when zoomed for ASCR), and a built in drawback function on a gun that just barely comes up even with the AR. So why use it at all? Yah you may have a slight DPS advantage, but the SCR is semi-auto, meaning your RPM is never going to be the maximum, and the overheat mechanic full on prevents you from hitting it anyway. So your total DPS is never actually going to be what you're saying it is.

Regarding your whining about the 1.8m SP needed to invest in dispersion/accuracy, the SCR basically needs the Amarr Assault suits to get any sort of DPS without overheating, so I consider that an even trade as it binds you to using Amarr suits, and all the imbalance issues of that ( guess you Amarr people just get one less slot on your suits, cause lulz balance -CCP). That is an entire suit you HAVE to spec into just to use a gun properly, to try and sort of match the default assault rifle. Yah, I consider that an even trade for a modicum of a slightly potential higher DPS that is never actually seen in game.



Key point as I said, there aren't any. There's no reason to use any other weapon. Especially on suits that don't bonus shields so you can stack your mids with damage modifiers and lows with armor plates. Who says you need trade offs in this game?

What do you mean? I think you added it wrong 0.0, level one weaponry is 6220 SP and level 2 is 18650, and level 3 is 43530 thus 68400.

I didn't forget that the militia AR is 0 SP, but I am an advocate of all weapons getting militia variants so anything I say would contradict what thought process

I think AR needs a 10% damage reduction and all weapons need another 10% damage reduction. That is 20% reduction on AR total. I would say to buff other weapons instead, but it would make all weapons drop even heavies rather fast which would make this too close to CoD.

Ar still does more in more situations: why shotgun when an ar can kill in .3 seconds and has more range and damage per clip? Why use a laser when an ar's damage does more damage inside the laser's optimal? Why use an smg when an ar does more dps and has better cqc potential? Why use hmg when ar's do the same dps, but over a more uniform range? We need to keep the ar's 'jack of all trades' aspect, but when it outperforms niche weapons in their niche? I call bull.

Actually nobody knows the Damage per clip of the Shotgun unless you can count all those pellets, also the AR is mean't to have its own niche and that is high DPS low range.

Hey bro, in what FPS game do people NOT spam the AR? IMO, the AR should be the most balanced, most used gun in the game. Maybe you shouldn't post a thread with stupid complaints about a gun that everyone uses.

The ar is overused not op
There is a difference

Saying it's op just because you die from it more frequently than not doesn't make it op

It just means people find it reliable in it's role of infantry suppression

Scr and ascr are amazing weapons in the right hands (I would know I have prof 5 in both ar and scr)
I do agree with the a balance though.....but for now feel my wrath!

It's about 10. As the damage per shot on a heavies back is 300-350. Damage per pellet is 30-34 correct?

When heavies are using GEK Assault Rifles over HMGs for area denial/Infantry suppression, there's a problem.

Does anyone ever take into consideration the map that is being played and the weapons used?

The current maps promote use of the AR because of the distance and layout. As infantry I am gimping myself if I use a shot gun on Manus Peak. A sniper rifle on skim junction limits the amount of action I will see. Currently without all the racial variants of weapons in the game the AR is best weapon to be used in the majority of situations, this does not make the weapon OP. To me OP means there is no counter , clearly there are multiple counters to AR, bot h in weapon use and tactics. Too many threads on OPness and too few requesting the rest of the items be added sooner rather than later.

The point I am trying to make is that actual lasting balance can't be done right now. We need to have the rail rifle and the combat rifle before it's possible to change the numbers in a way that will have a meaningful and lasting impact on game balance.

Well, if I were a betting man....


Secondly, CCP seems fine to nerf other weapons even though all the racial variants aren't in game. They also seem to be fine using the overuse of a weapon, or it's use outside of it's intended role as justifications.

All of this applies to the current AR in the current game.

TBH I'd love perusing the tears and QQ's of the AR users.

If any of you remembered what the forums looked like after the tacAR nerf, you know all hell would break loose.

Should we have an absolute equal amount of snipers forge guns and laser rifles wnd a
r.s ? No a sniper should be rarer because nit every one can do it , and what if a 3rd of the people in dust had heavy armor? No its about 2/10 which is good the simpler the tge equipment the more people should use it imagine if a more balanced number of tanks or dropships

With the previous you can see how right now there isnt Flaylock spammin and is a good sidearm; now take the splash out of the FG and it will be balanced, put some sense into the MassDriver like less RoF and more damage so voil+á: you get a good gun, or even crazier why not put kickback or muzzle drift or even more demented: bullet spread in the AR so aint used as an omnigun.

Or fu** it, lets all use automatic FG with a 1000 RPsecond with 2000 as direct damage and 1000 as splash, so there is no use for any other weapon, right? No, the weapon (the AR) needs balance, as simple as that, so theres diversity and we dont get another BF or CoD were everyone is just easy trigger on any weapon and can be snipe shotgun or can go automatic sniper, some might wonder why in so many servers those things are banned or restricted, but I dont.

Your post is so bad in so many ways..

But aside of that Im not talkin reality, I was writtin game wise, gameplay wise, things you aint good at, but come on call me noob, haha that was nice but stupid, no way to fight back with arguments, or something like good examples?

I will throw a few at ya:

1.- 1 shot kills aint happening with snipers is game mechanic so a fit actually makes sense, like heavys take several shotgun blasts, etc
2.- You can try usin SMG's as primary but chances are youre gonna get killed easily, so its best used as a complement, same happens to Scrams Pistols and now at the Flaylock (maybe your iWin button?)
3.- Im ruining a game? haha tell that at the playrbase that aint using the FoTM
4.-No skill in use a SMG? haha, im not gonna reply to that
5.- Do you actually read my previous post?
6.- Fu** it, do you even consider or tought through what you have just posted?

I have nothin against you but come on grow up, dont go callin names or analizing my post, its my opinion so back the fu** up if the only argument you have is:

- blablabla my Flaylock aint primary anymore, I dont want you all nerfin my iWin buttons, please nomo

Come on!

So you speak spanish? good for you
Cool, say all of that to yourself Mister Mostacho, haaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
So you use(d) other things aside from your iWin, maybe your other iWin?
I actually dont use ARs since 012 so.. suck it!

And.. you are the ass hahahahahah

Edit: you dirty grammar b*tch!

Still tired of AR 514.

No creo que debes usar otro lenguaje para insultar a alguien.

Well then I guess my first suggestion would be to get out of Pub Matches because it will always contain the lowest common denominator in terms of playstyle and tactics. The majority of players in them are not team based groups so you will not find diversity because support weapons only make sense when players are working together.

Oh and earlier you posted in real world a.r.s are mid range weapons for militaries , but the u.s. armed forces are trained tobkil with it from 0 to excess of 400 yards using like 2-3 bulletd a person

Some RL ballpark weapon ranges (most from wiki)-

Shotguns-
The practical/effective range of your home defense type shotgun, with 00 buckshot, is about 20 yards

(in my experience shotguns built to shoot decent distances would NOT be at all ideal for CQC)

SMGs-
Effective range
200 m (656 ft) (MP5A2, MP5A3, MP5A4, MP5A5)

100 m (328 ft) (MP5/10)

70 m (230 ft) (MP5/40)

100 m (328 ft) (MP5K, MP5KA1, MP5KA4, MP5KA5, MP5K-PDW)

(As you can see, these are all MP5 varients)

Assault Rifles (AR-15)-
Effective range
400GÇô600 m (avg 547 yd)

(I would imagine this is an extremely rough ballpark. AR15 actually stands for Armalite (<--I think) Rifle 15, Armalite being the original brand. With all the different brands, and all the different ways to trick them out, i'm sure this number could vary greatly)

Sniper Rifles-
Maximum effective range
7.62+ù39mm
600 m

5.56+ù45mm
600 m [36]

7.62+ù51mm (.308 Winchester)
800 m

7.62+ù54mm R
800 m

.30-06 Springfield
800 m

7 mm Remington Magnum
900GÇô1,100 m

.300 Winchester Magnum
900GÇô1,200 m

.338 Lapua Magnum
1,200-1,500 m

.50 BMG (12.7+ù99mm NATO)
12.7+ù108mm (Russian)
1,500GÇô2,000 m

14.5+ù114mm
1,800GÇô2,300 m


LMGs-
Effective range
1,200 yd (1,100 m)

(This is an M60)

HMGs-
Effective range
1,800 m (2,000 yd)

Maximum range
6,800 m (7,400 yd)

(M2 Browning)

So yea, that's rough RL ranges. Don't know in game ranges, so i'll leave it to someone else to compare and contrast.

I would imagine the AR15/AK47 are the backbones of every military on the planet. Pretty much a guarantee. Shotguns in actual combat are NOT for anything other than CQC i.e house to house, I would say that the closest RL gun to Dusts ARs is probably the LMG (say, the SAW, or Squad Assault Weapon ((<--I think)), due to range and power, but they're obviously not as accurate and a good bit heavier. The HMG is a powerhouse with range, but most are mounted, and the rest are usually a two man team. I don't think you would be very mobile at all, if you were even able to pick it up and fire it, and obviously Sniper Rifles are long range exclusively. So that pretty much leaves the AR15 style rifle as the jack of all trades in real life combat, more out of necessity than choice. Not saying Dust has the AR right (I use it, but at 2 weeks play time I don't have the proper knowledge to judge OP), but yea, its the equivalent of the Pike. It's standard issue for most front line troops, I wouldn't be surprised to find it is the leading killer in Dust, just as i'm sure it is in almost any FPS type multiplayer game.

DISCLAIMER: I realize my newness, please don't mistake my 2 cents for anything more that it is.

Well it takes around 3-10 seconds for plasma to diffuse from a cathode, so if we assume the projectile that's is being converted to plasma as a cathode, whilst adding some projectile speed lets say 600 m/s (pretty slow for a bullet but we aren't using realism) that means the bullet plasma projectile can travel 1800 meters before dispersing. But because plasma is a gas, and the numbers I have are from a stationary cathode that means this is not at all true. To be able to put a realistic range on a plasma rifle we would need to know how the projectile is being turned to plasma, what the energy source for this mechanism is, how much matter is available for conversion, and the density of the plasma. With this we can know how much plasma will be dispersed through speed of the projectile, when the conversion mechanism will slow down due to lack of energy, and how much damage will the projectile have when it reaches its target; F=MA and if we are losing plasma to the atmosphere our mass will be lower, while our acceleration will decrease with time. Although this also means that if there is a strong intermolecular bond within the plasma even though it is expanding and dispersing, shots from plasma rifle would have a radius, meaning the longer the range the weaker the shot is but the more accurate it will be.

The kdr tells you when you look at a group of people using a weapon compared to another group usong a diffrent weapon whether its good or bad

If I give 50 smgs and 50 people (at random) scrambler pistols what group would have the better k/d
If I do the same with scrambler or ar it could go either, but probably not far from balanced

Also I've killed some 75 m away, only because thry were afk so I was having target practice, id shoot then readjust from recoil and repeat 6 times so if you worry about ars from that distance try not afking and you'll probably be fine

Ehh either way ike 5-10 m diff
And if anything needs a nerf its my favorite weapon scrambler rifle it absolutely demolishes

Ehh either way ike 5-10 m diff
And if anything needs a nerf its my favorite weapon scrambler rifle it absolutely demolishes

I only said that because their complainting about 60 m ar shots, earlier I killed a medium suit at 122 m with the scrambler rifle, I double checked it team mate stood at the exact peice of cover and the scanner said 122 m
and if someone creeps up on me I just swap to smg

The problem I see with the AR is this

Shotgun beat AR in the 0-5 meter range (50% of the time due to hit detection, so its equal footing)

Snipers and Forges beat AR at 90+ range (100% of the time)

Mass Drivers and explosives can own ARs around corners / obstacles

ARs are undisputed within the 5-75 range mark, no other low mid, mid, or high mid range weapon can compare outside of player skill difference. Meaning the only diversity will come through explosives, or super cqc or distant range weapons.

I will give you that aim assist on ars is slaughter MASSACRE

this post makes me laugh, its the aim bot thats making AR so damn good, iv been using this since closed beta and the weapon that eats ppl wit ha AR is a scrambler rifle and a laser rifle. maybe you should just stop your crying over it cause i sure if it got nerfed you would cry about another weapon being over used

. maybe you should just stop your crying over it cause i sure if it got nerfed you would cry about another weapon being over used

maybe if you played this game since closed beta you would know what your talking about and obviously you dont otherwise your comment just now would be directed tp the right person, i have never moaned or complained about a weapon other then av to be nerfed so get you facts straight you noob

and your telling me i cant aim lmao i think you should just shut up cause your digging a hole

you really dont know what your talking about, having it reset at open beta means nothing what your saying. like i said you should shut up cause you dont know what your talking about and your proving it with your stupid troll posts

Watch it the Ar mafia doesn't like the truth

This is wy they did cry about the MD.... In 1,3 I could hold of a full team in my proto MD. ( high sp on everything ). They just kept on charging head on and got wasted. When they did flank manuvers and **** I got wasted LOL.

Now with the AA they just charge and kill everything.... It's ********.

Before you go MD troll on me. I just wasted 1,7 miljon sp on AR...... And yeah I use that insted of the MD now..... However the AA makes the gun a joke, no skill needed to use it.