So, every other weapon in this game gets nerfed just as soon as the AR nerf brigade gets going.

OP or Not, the AR is ruining Dust. This weapon is so overused it's just stupid. The weapon, in pubs, accounts for as many kills as 11 of the 14 weapons combined. Combined.

Does that sound like balance or diversity? no, it isn't.

CCP - Are other weapons supposed to compete with the AR? They aren't.

It's about damn time that CCP approaches balance with, you know, usage balance in mind.

This is simply not true. I have 0sp in AR's and can drop plenty with it. Matter of fact it does better than the SG that I have heavily skilled into, the SMG which many an AR user has claimed is OP, ect. You do not have to be skilled into many of the weapons. The difference between std and proto is actually very minimal for almost any weapon. However, if you want to say the grass gets greener later, it doesn't. At later levels the proto AR is actually even more imbalanced than the proto's of others, (we can use SG for example). The cost, CPU/PG is higher to use for proto SG than proto AR, but the proto AR has a higher meta level, (7-9), dmg, RoF, Ammo Capacity, Accuracy......

So what were you saying about skills being a factor? They are actually more balanced at std than at proto.....and even here the AR outshines. Not because it's "familiar", (seriously an AR in a game is familiar? is this even a real argument?). How many space age AR's did you fire before Dust? More than space age shotguns? If familiar is the reason, why is it not grenade 514?

BTW: as a self admitted competitive COD player, I call BS on everyone using the same weapons. Everyone might use the same weapon in that weapon's class, but you did not see a huge percentage using the same class of weapon.

yeah AR should be about 10% worse than the other weapons as its versitality is its strength

It's spammed cause it outdoes longer range, short range, and mid range guns.

It needs its range brought down to 40m, and the other niche guns need to be buffed BADLY!

I remember their optimal being 60, but I haven't checked in a while.

They just fixed the game being an imbecilic dance where you had to stick your gun up the other guy's nostrils. We don't need you tards clamouring for gun ranges to be dropped again.

Oh I agree that the other rifle versions need to be retuned......dont get me wrong there. But calling the AR OP or calling for a nerf of the AR because you want to force diversity by making a balanced weapon horrible......is just a bad policy period.

And and on paper the ASCR beats out or is equal to the AR is almost every stat. It is a better weapon all around than the AR...there is no situation where the AR is better than the ASCR.

Indeed, The AR is to be SHORT RANGED.

It out does the Current MID-LONG RANGE gun by a Mile.

Nobody saw that graph and wondered how much different we are from that?

Yes, I just was trying to make a point how Imbalanced the AR is currently.

Good point, and your maths seem sound for Balance.

decrease the clip size... the end

Also the idea that people have to move to avoid bullets is silly. My movement should not make bullets just not hit when they fire right at me. The bullets will go MUCH faster than me making my movement negligible. From what I have seen moving just reduces all damage taken from all sources except snipers, even on direct hits.


I think all weapons should have their damage reduced by 20-30% as well to make this less COD style shooter.

look at every other FPS, do your AR's in those have 60 in a clip, i think not, the huge ammo mag turns the AR into a HMG when used by an accurate gamer, its wrong, clips for the normal AR's need to 30 or less for the standard AR, GEK-38 and Duvolle, maybe 25 in the breach variants, just sort it out CCP, 60 bullets @ 30 hp each =,1800 so with an AR i can kill any infantry in the game IN ONE CLIP??? seriously thats just wrong , same with SMG's, potentially 1400 hp in a clip, MADNESS!!!!!!!!

I used the AR exclusively until the most recent respec...then I used the scrambler. I am confident that I know what I am talking about after months of AR use and a couple months of ASCR use under my belt.....but you want the numbers....not sure why you cant compare this yourself but here it is.

Carthum Assault Scrambler Rifle 9 Prototype 77280isk
39.6 HP
705.9 RPM
58.2 accuracy
72 mag size
325 max ammo
2.5 s reload
15 heat buildup per second (equates to 1.5 mags before overheating)
9.0 s Cool down
5.0 s overheat
50 HP dmg from overheating
83 CPU
15 PG

Duvolle Assault Rifle 8 Prototype
37.4 dmg
750 rpm
56.8 accuracy
60 mag size
300 max ammo
3 reload
90 CPU
13 PG

ASCR
Pros: Higher per shot dmg, better accuracy, higher mag size, more max ammo, faster reload time, less CPU, recoil/disperion same as fully skilled AR, better sight, bonus 20% dmg against shields which 90% of the playerbase tank

Cons: slightly lower DPS from the AR (465.89 DPS for the ASCR vs 467.50 for the AR), slightly lower RPM (but as DPS shows the extra dmg makes up the difference quite nicely), can overheat (but only after 1.5 mags which if you havent killed someone by that time then your dead whether you use the ASCR, AR, or any other weapon), 80% dmg to armor (difference of 2 dmg per shot from the AR)


AR
Pros: higher RPM (once again this means a 2 dmg difference per second from the ASCR not exactly amazing), no possible way to overheat, less PG, 90% dmg to armor

Cons: Lower per shot dmg, lower accuracy, lower mag size, less max ammo, slower reload time, more CPU, must spend 1.5 mill extra SP to obtain same recoil/dispersion that ASCR starts with, iron sight (although better still not as good as the RDS on the ASCR),10% bonus to shield dmg

Now the only thing that cannot be quantified is whether the hip fire on the AR is slightly better than the ASCR or not. I have tried both and honestly its hard to tell but if I was forced to give this to one of the guns I would probably lean a little more towards the AR having a slight advantage in hipfire....but its only a very slight advantage.

As you can see from the stats the ASCR in general comes out ahead of the AR every single time. Yes there are some things the AR is better at I would never debate that. But even in the areas where the AR is better the difference is pretty small......nigh insignificant since everyone misses some shots so noone truly sees that DPS on an enemy. But the areas where the ASCR is better than the AR the difference can be very significant. Total possible dmg from the AR before reload is 2244 but the ASCR is 2851.2....that is a difference of over 600 dmg before reloading....that is possibly another kill. Reload is .5 seconds faster for the ASCR.....the CPU/PG just depends on your suit if you can take more CPU or more PG....so thats not really a defining issue between the weapons as it depends on your specific build. Any place where the ASCR has less dmg it is lower dmg by 2 points...but where the dmg is greater for the ASCR its a difference of 6.38 (using base info not counting any proficiencies so this difference becomes larger as proficiencies are included). The only significant supposed downside for the ASCR is that it can overheat but seriously who has ever overheated the ASCR on accident? Its almost impossible to do on accident. Also the AR downside is as it fires continuously the recoil/dispersion becomes greater and greater.

Honestly if you cant admit that the ASCR is a better weapon (maybe not your preference but just based on stats) then you just blind. The ASCR is the better assault than the assault rifle is (which is supposed to be the gallente version of the weapon LOL).

Indeed.

I see all over this thread "Oh, but in real-life its the most used weapon on the battlefield!"

Well, this isn't real-life is it?

GAR-Short Range, High ROF, Moderate Damage, Bullet hose.

I'll bold the bits that it fits.

GAR-Short Range, High ROF, Moderate Damage, Bullet hose.

When the Caldari SMG comes, the GAR should get its range, provided it comes with the Racial ARs.

I agree that balance is rather difficult to achieve through what we have now, but several things can be done.

Change the fricking Name. I remember we we're saying this back in Open Beta, why wasn't it done?

Bump the ROF slightly. Enough so it bumps the DPS to something like 450, but not enough so that it sounds different.

Like I said, decrease the effective range. When I say that, I mean the range which the damage stops going down.

The Combat rifle should get the GARs current DPS, 425, and the CRR should get a DPS of around 400.

Then Several classes need buffs, along with guns.

not trolling... just curious what you are getting at or the point of this post. is it in response to something?

If the AR's damage was nerfed proportionately per level to have the same dps as the breach AR we would be on our way toward balancing.


CURRENT:
breach AR damage per shot = 51
breach AR rpm = 400
breach AR dps = 340
breach AR actual dps = 374
breach AR dps with 15% proficiecny = 430


STD AR damage per shot = 34 (33% less damage than breach. [67% of the damage a breach does})
STD AR rpm = 750 (has a 85% higher fire rate than breach)
STD AR dps = 425
STD AR actual dps = 467.5
STD AR dps with 15% proficiecny = 537.6

As you can see the std AR is clearly a supperior weapon.



SUGGESTED CHANGES:
breach AR damage per shot = 51
breach AR rpm = 400
breach AR dps = 340
breach AR actual dps = 374
breach AR dps with 15% proficiecny = 430


STD AR damage per shot = 27.5 (46% less damage than breach. {54% of the damage a breach does})
STD AR rpm = 750 (has a 85% higher fire rate than breach)
STD AR dps = 343.75
STD AR actual dps = 378.125
STD AR dps with 15% proficiecny = 434.8

^^to add to all the points you mentioned, disperion on the AR resets everytime you release the trigger, so lightly tapping the trigger makes your AR pinpoint accurate. so, thats 1.8 million SP saved.

not to mentioed you need light weapons lvl2 and scrambler rifles lvl4 to even get an AScr. so, you need 2.5 million SP just to use the darn thing. and check it out it has about 15% better dps than a militia AR.

how much SP does a milita AR cost? 0. how much does it cost in ISK? 610.
how much SP for a full auto AScr? 2.5 million (weaponry lvl3, light weapony 2, scrambler rilfes lvl 4), how much isk? 17,483

the following are in damage per second
militia AR dps = 425 *10% = 467.
how much does it do to shields? 514
how much does it do to armor? 420

Ascr dps = 444.15 (the AScr came out after all weapons got the 10% damage buff, so it may or may not have the buff. 488.6)
how much does it do to shields? 532
how much does it do to armor? 355

scrambler rifle STD:
the dps would appear to be high because at 72hp per shot and and a fire rate of 705 your dps would be 846, however you must pull the trigger 12 times in 1 second inorder to do that dps. inaddition, the heat build up is 60 per second, with a 6second cool down and a 5second overheat seizure. so, if you fire 1 round every second you will over heat after 6 to 7 shots, and do 52 damage to yourself.

indeed 6-7 shots is 504 total damage done, but thats 6 to seven shots in 6-7 seconds.
the milita AR does 425 in 1 second.

^^you forgot to include the lvl1 and 2 lvl SP from weaponry
the lvl 1 SP from light weapon
the lvl 1, lvl2 and lvl3 from Scrambler rifle operation

and don't forget the milita AR is a 0 SP weapon

I think AR needs a 10% damage reduction and all weapons need another 10% damage reduction. That is 20% reduction on AR total. I would say to buff other weapons instead, but it would make all weapons drop even heavies rather fast which would make this too close to CoD.

Ar still does more in more situations: why shotgun when an ar can kill in .3 seconds and has more range and damage per clip? Why use a laser when an ar's damage does more damage inside the laser's optimal? Why use an smg when an ar does more dps and has better cqc potential? Why use hmg when ar's do the same dps, but over a more uniform range? We need to keep the ar's 'jack of all trades' aspect, but when it outperforms niche weapons in their niche? I call bull.

yeah but


1. An Ar of any type is not meant to have higher dps than a HMG

and

2. the AR has the longest range of all but he TAC, and Sniper rifles

^^this guy is a joke. with no evidence, and a troll. you are also, a racist. i am not a gringo i am brasilian.

ME puede criticar cuanto que queires porque solo esta adicionando len~a al fuego puta. Tu ni hablas espan~ol correcto, ni ingles,, pues es triste de verdad. ademas, no has provedido ningun tipo de evidencia para promover su punto, ni demostraste evidencia contrario de lo que yo he puesto. Vos sos um troll. no voy a dignificar jamas sus respuestas desde este punto adelante, porque obviamente solo eres un troll, que ni puede escribir.

If your going to troll me at least write in a language thats understandable. your english is horrendous. and there is spell check here.... please rewrite in spanish. well, im not gonna respond anyway, but at least ill know what your saying.

pero, es muy divertido....lol

but its so much fun!...lol


(blackstar you get props your spanish and english are high grade stuff. very nice indeed.)

It is interesting to see how RL weapons compare to what we are using, it's important to recognize a few things

1. The AR shoots plasma that will burn itself out before the projectile itself loses any momentum.

2. if we are going to use RL info for the range of the AR we should use that same line of reasoning for every other weapon. I don't think anybody wants scramblers or LR's to have infinite range, though.

3. Balance should be king. high DPS weapons should have low range, or some other sort of drawback. balance > realism.