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[Suggestion] Preventing Dropsuit Power Creep

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Cosgar ParagonX 3185	Posted - 2013.07.25 19:25:00 - [1] - Quote After some extended play in Uprising, there seemed to be a little something missing from Dust 514. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but something was missing compared to Chromosome. After some discussion in game, observing some battles, and paying attention to the forums, I think I figured out a problem that needs to be addressed. The current dropsuit/skill system promotes Power Creep In Chromosome, the Standard, Advanced and Prototype dropsuit system worked for several reasons: ISK was a balancing factor that prevented prototype spam. Prototype was so expensive, that it was limited to CBs. In pub games, using strictly prototype could seriously hurt the user's income and added more value to STD/ADV fittings. Prototype weapons were kept in check because prototype suits were too expensive for everyday use. If a player wanted to use a prototype weapon, they had to either use a prototype suit or give up something on a lower meta level suit to fit it. VK.1, T-II, and B-Series sub variants within the suit tiers offered incomperables that balanced dropsuits to be better in different situations, not just all around better. Shield/Armor imbalance in Chromosome didn't fully allow this to come to fruition, but having more choices in a player's fitting selection rather than more raw power was a healthy encouragement. With all these examples, power creep was at a minimum. Even though there was a sufficient gap between STD/ADV/PRO weapons, the economy prevented everyone from running around in the best gear in the game at all times. This allowed newer players to at least have somewhat of a fighting chance despite the SP gap, veteran players with more SP could specialize in different roles without sacrificing their overall effectiveness and players that did narrow themselves into one specific role were properly rewarded as they should. But when prices were lowered, beta players received a refund for all of their assets, and the changes to the skill tree became more dropsuit, weapon and vehicle specific, this delicate balance was thrown off and created a situation of power creep: Prototype dropsuits are too commonplace, therefore making prototype equipment more commonplace as well. Pub matches have degraded into a situation where whoever has the most veteran players winning. Because of the abundance of prototype, all players are forced to specialize in one specific role just to compete. This limits how many different roles/fittings a person can use. Players that specialized in more than one role are even less effective because the gap between one prototype fitting vs 2~3 STD/ADV fittings available is too wide. It's harder for newer players to be able to have a fighting chance. With everyone running prototype, a player has the option of either AFKing for the SP they need to compete, enduring the unnecessarily extensive struggle to be competitive, or quit. Many of which choose the latter. Many veteran players are burned out. If you're stuck in one role, it's going to get old. This is why we see so many topics, requesting respecs. Nobody wants to be completely locked into one role like we are now. The common mentality seems to be that you have to grind into prototype X in role Y because it's the only way to compete, it shouldn't be this way. STD/ADV gear is severly devalued because prototype is readily available, more rewarding, and a minimal risk of losing it. If this goes unchecked we're going to be left in a situation where player retention will decline because nobody will want to endure months and months of getting curb stomped by prototype gear. There are a lot of "Dust is dying" topics as of late, claiming this because server turnout is at an all time low, but as I've stated before, summer is, has, and always will be slow for the entire gaming industry. Even with that truth, we're still going to lose players, new and old because of the current flaws. Incomporables: Power Through Options I propose that instead of making each tier of dropsuit more powerful through raw power, we make them powerful through the options they allow. For the following example, I'll be strictly using the Caldari CK.0 medium frame dropsuit. This isn't etched in stone, but rather a suggestion. Any feedback on the topic would be greatly appreciated. First off, let's look at the Caldari CK.0 CPU- 300 gF PG- 60 KW High Slots - 4 Low Slots - 3 Equipment - 1 Light Weapon Slot -1 Sidearm Slot -1 Grenade-1 Shields- 210 HP Armor- 120 HP Shield Recharge Rate - 20 HP/s Recharge Delay- 5s Depleted Recharge Delay- 8s Movement Speed- 5m/s Sprint Speed- 7m/s Sprint Duration- 15/s? (Might have changed since the stamina nerf) Stamina- 150 Stamina Recovery Rate- 15/s So for all intents and purposes, let's make this the STD Caldari assault CK-1. No racial bonus, no suit bonus, just the suit slots and fitting options. In fact, for the remainder of the example, I'll be using these stats as the base for changes being made from STD > ADV > PRO. The idea is that the suit will be more powerful through the different fitting options and bonuses that encourage different styles of play. The end result should be the dropsuits being used as a canvas for incomperables- different gaming mechanics that aren't powerful through stats, but their usefulness in a different situation. Players that invest into the Caldari suit will be granted with more fitting options in the different suit tiers, add just as much value to the lower tiers, and reward players that want to be more versatile the ability to be almost as effective as someone that fully invests. In my next post, I'll be covering the Caldari "Sharpshooter" C/1 Series, an assault dropsuit designed for longer range combat at the cost of effectiveness at close range.
Cosgar ParagonX 3185	Posted - 2013.07.25 19:25:00 - [2] - Quote Caldari "Sharpshooter" C/1 Series High Slots - 4 Low Slots - 3 Equipment - 2 Light Weapon Slot -1 Sidearm Slot -1 Grenade-1 Shields- 210 HP Armor- 120 HP Shield Recharge Rate - 20 HP/s Recharge Delay- 6s Depleted Recharge Delay- 10s Movement Speed- 4.7m/s Sprint Speed- 6.7m/s Sprint Duration- 13/s Stamina- 130 Stamina Recovery Rate- 13/s Dropsuit Bonus: 3% Hybrid Weapon range per level in Dropsuit Command Caldari Dropsuit Bonus: 6% Scope Zoom per level in Caldari Dropsuit Command Sharpshooter Role Bonus: +5% Hybrid Weapon Damage -25% Light Weapon Accuracy So what we have here is a higher tier Caldari assault suit that isn't more powerful than the basic suit which is all around good, but a dropsuit that is better in a specific role. This would make a good sniper suit or take advantage of weapons with a scope like the TAC AR, ScR, or the Gauss Rifle. But these advantages create disadvantages as the suit is slower and has significantly lower accuracy when hip firing. With levels in Dropsuit Command and Caldari Medium Dropsuit Command, the suit will only get better as you invest SP. In case if you didn't notice, I've changed the bonus system where each dropsuit will have 3 sets of bonuses: Dropsuit Bonus- A basic suit bonus that increases with each level of Dropsuit Command Caldari Dropsuit Bonus- A bonus that increases per level of Caldari Medium Dropsuit Command Role Bonus - Default bonus tied to the specific suit's role. Can't be improved through any skill. (May sometimes have a penalty) Next up, let's look at another suit, the Caldari "Demolitions" B-Series, an assault suit that specializes in anti-vehicle: High Slots - 5 Low Slots - 2 Equipment - 1 Light Weapon Slot -1 Sidearm Slot -1 Grenade-1 Shields- 220 HP Armor- 110 HP Shield Recharge Rate - 25 HP/s Recharge Delay- 6s Depleted Recharge Delay- 10s Movement Speed- 5m/s Sprint Speed- 7m/s Sprint Duration- 15/s? (Might have changed since the stamina nerf) Stamina- 150 Stamina Recovery Rate- 15/s Dropsuit Bonus: +5% To Light and Sidearm Ammo Capacity per level of Dropsuit Command Caldari Dropsuit Bonus: +5% To Grenades Carried per level of Caldari Medium Dropsuit Command Anti-Armor Role Bonus: 25% To Equipment Carried So as you see, we have a dropsuit that would benefit from just about any kind of weapon with AV properties. Mass Driver, Swarm Launchers, AV Grenades, Proximity Mines, Remote Explosives, Flaylock Pistol and even the Plasma Cannon to some degree with the 25% Ammo Capacity buff. It's not better than the Basic or Sharpshooter suit, but it provides more options to someone investing in Caldari medium frame suits. Next up, let's look at the Caldari "Shock Trooper" CK.1, a dropsuit that specializes in sustained combat through its faster shield regeneration and higher shield buffer. High Slots - 5 Low Slots - 2 Equipment - 1 Light Weapon Slot -1 Sidearm Slot -1 Grenade-1 Shields- 280 HP Armor- 50 HP Shield Recharge Rate - 25 HP/s Recharge Delay- 5s Depleted Recharge Delay- 8s Movement Speed- 4.7m/s Sprint Speed- 6.7m/s Sprint Duration- 15/s Stamina- 150 Stamina Recovery Rate- 15/s Dropsuit Bonus: +5% to shield regulator efficacy per level in Dropsuit Command Caldari Dropsuit Bonus: 5% reduction to shield module PG/CPU usage per level Caldari Medium Dropsuit Command Shock Trooper Role Bonus: +25% Shield Recharger and Shield Energizer efficacy -25% Armor Plate efficacy Now assuming my math is correct, (could be wrong) with all shield extenders, in the high slots this suit could get up to 713 shields might seem a bit OP, but look at how little armor the suit has. Consider this the Drake of Caldari dropsuits, just beware of any lasers, ScR, or Flux Grenades. But with the bonuses to shield energizers, rechargers, and CPU/PG reduction to these modules, you can fit it for a faster shield regen instead of a huge buffer. But it can only shield tank because it only has 2 low slots and a 25% penalty to any armor plate fitted. Last, but not least, let's look at the Caldari "Assault" CK.0, an offense oriented class that provides increased DPS at the cost of shield regen. High Slots - 5 Low Slots - 2 Equipment - 1 Light Weapon Slot -1 Sidearm Slot -1 Grenade-1 Shields- 200 HP Armor- 130 HP Shield Recharge Rate - 10 HP/s Recharge Delay- 6s Depleted Recharge Delay- 10s Movement Speed- 5m/s Sprint Speed- 7m/s Sprint Duration- 20/s? Stamina- 200 Stamina Recovery Rate- 20/s Dropsuit Bonus: 5% Hybrid Weapon reload speed per level of Dropsuit Command Caldari Medium Dropsuit Bonus: 1% to Hybrid Weapon RoF per level in Caldari Medium Dropsuit Assault Bonus: 10% Damage Mod efficacy. -25% Shield Recharger efficacy So with this suit, you have an option for the ultimate ganker... at the cost of shield recharge/delay. Still a powerful suit in its own regard, but not recommended for extended combat. So with level 5 in Caldari Medium Frame dropsuits (and Dropsuit Command) you wind up with more fitting options to use on the field, instead of just a prototype and a bunch of weaker suits you're not going to use anymore. Players that want to dabble in Caldari suits get a generalist that isn't particularly good in any specific area. Also newer players can try out Caldari suits with little SP invested and be effective with the lower tier models. Everybody wins because no suit is better than the other, just better in specific situations and players won't be locked into one role. Want to be a sniper? Use the sharpshooter, Seeing a lot of vehicles on the field? Use the Demolitions suit. Want something for guerrilla warfare? The shock trooper might be for you? Want to gank? ...you get the point. Again, these are only suggestions and a compilations of ideas from in game discussions, any feedback would be appreciated
Cosgar ParagonX 3185	Posted - 2013.07.25 19:26:00 - [3] - Quote (Reserved)
Cosgar ParagonX 3186	Posted - 2013.07.25 19:29:00 - [4] - Quote (Reserved)
Cosgar ParagonX 3186	Posted - 2013.07.25 19:30:00 - [5] - Quote (Reserved)
Jimthefighter Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.07.25 19:43:00 - [6] - Quote The biggest problem with ideas like this, ideas that I think are interesting or could change the game (for the better? Don't know), is that this is a LARGE change. It might even work, but it'd take a lot of momentum to get this moving and the resistance from people already at the top and doing well would be large. But idea away.... I'll keep looking at them. Also, there has been at least one other thread like this. Maybe collaborate if you haven't already? Edit: nevermind, saw the cross reference
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 3565	Posted - 2013.07.25 20:04:00 - [7] - Quote You're using Caldari. You disgust me, hence why -1.
Cosgar ParagonX 3188	Posted - 2013.07.25 20:06:00 - [8] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: You're using Caldari. You disgust me, hence why -1. I'm just using an example everyone is familiar with I'll use Minmatar for the Logistics if that makes you feel better.
J-Lewis Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 247	Posted - 2013.07.25 20:16:00 - [9] - Quote I agree with your basic premise. Using incomperables is a great tool to curb power creep. So here's another cross post (because I totally haven't done enough of that today already). How to go about such a change is difficult. You can't just remove ADV and PRO; that's slashing content. And in a content starved game, that's a good way to get players to leave. However, we can do some interesting things to retain the previous depth and feeling of investment, while crafting a system that keeps everything useful. I'm going to run through a little case scenario to show what I mean. Here's a skill tree I cooked up for the Skill Tree Think Tank thread. Looking at the tree, you'll find that I've marked Standard equipment to be unlocked by the basic operation skill. Case example: Hybrid Weapon Operation unlocks standard "tech 1" versions of the Nova Knive; Assault Rifle; Shotgun; Plasma Cannon; Sniper Rifle and Forge Gun. There's also a proficiency skill for each weapon, and a bunch of Weapon Upgrade skills. So here's where things start to get a bit wild; proficiency unlocks the ability to use ADV and PRO gear, so what do we do? We can turn ADV weapons into "tech 2" modular weapons which can fit various upgrade modules unlocked by the Weapon Upgrades branch. By default, the ADV weapons are nothing more but STD weapons in terms of stats, but their modularity allows you to specialize them a la mass effect 3 weapons bench (in other words, you slap a 4x scope on your rifle, you lose hip fire accuracy in exchange). Each ADV weapon has various amounts of slots depending on the weapon in question and is fitted just like any suit or vehicle. We turn PRO weapons into faction, pirate, and officer weapons. They become semi-rare to very rare loot drops and their performance varies from "straight upgrade from STD but worse than ADV" faction, to "straight upgrade from STD, about as good as ADV" pirate, to "better than ADV" officer. This solves the current power creep problem. STD becomes baseline equipment. They scale exceptionally well with your support skills, and have great bang for buck. ADV becomes a more expensive, but customizable STD weapon where increasing one trait diminishes another. PRO becomes a high risk reward option that is rarely seen in anything but the most serious fights (adjust drop rates as nessesary). My thread is here, in case anyone cares about the skill tree.
Piercing Serenity PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 378	Posted - 2013.08.05 05:21:00 - [10] - Quote +1 In its principle, I agree with the idea. Numbers can be changed (You can't give +%5 to grenades because it would be an SP sink for Contact nades, and only at L5 would it ever be useful), but over all, this is a great way to make all suits useful. You've illuminated a big flaw that a lot of MMOs have - "Why should I ever go back to the old gear?" Tiericide offers a great solution. The only thing we need to think about it implementation. I'd say now that you have the groundwork mostly intact, we should start thinking up ways to make a switch to this system as seamless as possible.

I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 551	Posted - 2013.08.05 08:55:00 - [11] - Quote You should just delete your second post and stick with the initial idea. Once it got complicated you lost me with what you were trying to communicate here. I agree with increasing the price of the prototype suits again. Risk vs. Reward should be the most important part of this game. STD suits should be where they are now, ADV suits should cost about 30k, and prototype suits 100k The problem with the suits in Chromosome was that heavies cost way too much. As long as the suits stay the same cost across the board I support this.
RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 386	Posted - 2013.08.05 09:27:00 - [12] - Quote I have an idea... Lower the price of the prototype dropsuit just a little, but ramp up the cost of complex mods. It would be nice if accessing a proto suit was fairly simple, if only to use standard mods. I think this way you will see a lot more prototypes in pub games with various grades of modules, instead of proto suit + proto modules.


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