DUST Search - Let me get this straight........

Malkai Inos wrote:

OZAROW wrote:

Still makes no sense, the distance on a sg has been totally nerfed and to spend millions of points just to bring the rof down to 72 when a maxed out mass driver can pin you down from range an shoot 2 rounds to your one!
Everybody flipped on how fast a fayloc could spam shots, you mean to tell me in the future a grenade launcher shooting huge grenades fires faster than a shotgun?

Na makes no sense.
The skills to a shotgun have been made obsolete due to the tweaking of other weapons, an this post is not to nerf other weapons but more so to have the sg looked at again.

The operation tightens the spread per level, the proficiency increases rof, while every other weapon in the game receives a damage bonus.
So now you basically have a slug that is deadly if you get a guy two feet away in the back of the head; better off using my knives at least their silent!

If I have to get to nova knive distance an attack as if I had nova knives to be effective; wouldn't I just use nova knives?
With the strafe speed so high you have a better chance not leveling up your sg an keeping the spead really wide, since the sp dump into proficiency basically means your shooting a slug with a 72 rof instead of 85 all for a total cost of oh say close to 3 million sp; to what, have a guy slightly move to the left an hit your feet with 2 shots fro
A mass driver in the amount of time it takes me to fire one more round?

Come on those are crappy stats an odds considering strafing speeds , it makes the gun mostly only useful from behind, a side arm is more effective than this weapon face to face.
Sg stats an hit detection need a second look

ate my post. rewriting...done.

You seem to misunderstand what the RoF actually displays.

Just for reference the AR has a RoF of 750. Now by your understanding it should be almost 10 times slower than the SG. Now is it? Of course not.

The RoF displays shots per minute. That's 85.7 shots per minute that your SG fires compared to the MDs 46.2. Note which one of those two is actually almost twice as fast as the other. It's not the MD but the SG.

Next calculating the skill bonus we just increase the RoF by 3% per level:

85.7*1.15=98,555

There. I'm not going to engage in the balance discussion as i don't currently have a problem with either. Just wanted to make a few things clearer.

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OZAROW A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 229	Posted - 2013.07.25 12:48:00 - [1] - Quote A core mass driver is 372.7 damage without mods It's rate of fire is 46.2!!!!!!!!!!!! A duvolle shotgun is 44.0 damage An get this..... Rate of fire is 85.7!!!!!!! WTF a mass driver proficiency gives damage 3% per level that means 428.2 DAMAGE WITHOUT MODS Tha sg proficiency isn't even damage it's 3% reduction to rof Means the fastest it will shoot is 72.8 DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE?! Ccp fix my shot gun this is stupid!
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 852	Posted - 2013.07.25 12:51:00 - [2] - Quote SG dmg is per pellet. There's several pellets in every shot. I have no idea what else could possibly be your problem here. Also yeah, thay should display the number of pellets. Oh and it's -3% delay between shots so RoF increases by that amount.
OZAROW A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 229	Posted - 2013.07.25 12:56:00 - [3] - Quote My problem is mass drivers are the new faylock an I'm not asking to nerf it but at least make the shotgun work, it's been totally f..d since everyone died in chrome so hit detection sucks, range sucks, an no damage to proficiency when every other exploding weapon in the game shoots faster with tons of damage it has no balance
Robert JD Niewiadomski NULLIMPEX INC 386	Posted - 2013.07.25 13:00:00 - [4] - Quote But... MD has only 6 rounds per clip... Reload takes forever... How many RPC your shotgun have? And somehow the shotgun does more damage at close range than MD. Believe me... I am constantly killed by militia SG shots in the back I suck. I know that...
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 691	Posted - 2013.07.25 13:19:00 - [5] - Quote Well despite the OP obviously thinking that the lower the ROF number the higher the ROF (which is wrong).....he has struck on a point of significance. MD needs to be rebalanced.
Daxxis KANNAH Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 258	Posted - 2013.07.25 14:22:00 - [6] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Well despite the OP obviously thinking that the lower the ROF number the higher the ROF (which is wrong).....he has struck on a point of significance. MD needs to be rebalanced.
Cosgar ParagonX 3178	Posted - 2013.07.25 14:45:00 - [7] - Quote OZAROW wrote: My problem is mass drivers are the new faylock an I'm not asking to nerf it but at least make the shotgun work, it's been totally f..d since everyone died in chrome so hit detection sucks, range sucks, an no damage to proficiency when every other exploding weapon in the game shoots faster with tons of damage it has no balance Hit detection kills a lot of weapons, HMG and shotgun more than anything. It needs to be fixed, because shotguns feel like a hard counter to a MD. In chrome, a duel between a SG and MD would usually end with the shotgun winning, or the MD user killing himself and the SG user while the SG user got an assist. semperfi1999 wrote: Well despite the OP obviously thinking that the lower the ROF number the higher the ROF (which is wrong).....he has struck on a point of significance. MD needs to be rebalanced. MD is balanced as a niche weapon specializing in CC and area denial. 1 v 1 against an AR in open ground, the MD loses 9/10.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 5129	Posted - 2013.07.25 14:52:00 - [8] - Quote /me facepalms Shotgun damage is per pellet, each shot fired is a bunch of pellets. I don't know exactly how much, but enough to one-shot-kill. A mass driver may do a lot of damage, but fires only 1 round per second. Even with direct hits (which are rare for the MD), damage per second ends up being substantially lower than an assault rifle of the same tier; if you compare splash damage DPS then the difference becomes pretty extreme. There is also the gravitational drop combined with the slow speed of the projectile which makes the mass driver require more guess work and skill when dealing with greater ranges. The mass driver makes up with it with splash radius and damage, which makes it an effective area denial weapon. It is ultimately balanced.
Zendeal Horizons' Edge Orion Empire 3	Posted - 2013.07.25 15:33:00 - [9] - Quote I believe from my test runs the Shotgun shots all contain 12 pellets per shot. Part of the issue with it being broken is that when you add movement into the mix there are many times when the shots just dissapear and even though you pulled the trigger, nothing will register. With the pellets all being the same this is partly why its almost useless to specc shotgun as 12x44 provides enough damage to 1 or 2 shot eveything but a heavy. Since the problem with shots dissapearing affects all shotguns the slight bump in damage for the better versions is somewhat useless. I would like to see some changes to the amount of pellets and the damage for each changed to add some reason to bother with more than standard / militia.... I think the only benifit you get from going higher is a bit better range on some of the choices.
2Bee Smith The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 29	Posted - 2013.07.25 15:39:00 - [10] - Quote Thats with a direct impact, which is near impossible to hit on a moving target that is more than 20 meters away

Zendeal Horizons' Edge Orion Empire 3	Posted - 2013.07.25 15:58:00 - [11] - Quote 2Bee Smith wrote: Thats with a direct impact, which is near impossible to hit on a moving target that is more than 20 meters away Yeah the OHK's are really close range.. but on any shotgun 20m is useless since you get pellet spread (and movement as you indicated), plus the dissapearing pellets.. A lucky shot might land 4-5 pellets but the increased damage on higher level shotguns still doesnt factor in these cases. It really is an in-your-face weapon that you get 1 chance to be effective. Once the initial attack doesnt work and the dance begins a SG user is better off running away to try again later.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 977	Posted - 2013.07.25 16:07:00 - [12] - Quote OZAROW wrote: A core mass driver is 372.7 damage without mods It's rate of fire is 46.2!!!!!!!!!!!! A duvolle shotgun is 44.0 damage/per pellet of the round An get this..... Rate of fire is 85.7!!!!!!! WTF a mass driver proficiency gives damage 3% per level that means 428.2 DAMAGE WITHOUT MODS Tha sg proficiency isn't even damage it's 3% reduction to rof Means the fastest it will shoot is 72.8 DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE?! Ccp fix my shot gun this is stupid! theres 6 pellets in a single shotgun round. (btw thats 290 damage per round with the base 110% damage within range) so you can fire twice as fast as a MD with 78% of direct damage what are you complaining about?
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy 404	Posted - 2013.07.25 16:12:00 - [13] - Quote Zendeal wrote: I believe from my test runs the Shotgun shots all contain 12 pellets per shot. Part of the issue with it being broken is that when you add movement into the mix there are many times when the shots just dissapear and even though you pulled the trigger, nothing will register. With the pellets all being the same this is partly why its almost useless to specc shotgun as 12x44 provides enough damage to 1 or 2 shot eveything but a heavy. Since the problem with shots dissapearing affects all shotguns the slight bump in damage for the better versions is somewhat useless. I would like to see some changes to the amount of pellets and the damage for each changed to add some reason to bother with more than standard / militia.... I think the only benifit you get from going higher is a bit better range on some of the choices. My trusty Shotgun has seen better days. Shotgun Hit Detection remains buggy. The Super Strafe introduced in 1.2 exacerbates the problem. Can't complain without suggesting a remedy, enjoy: Dev Experiment Request A: Equip Player 1 in a medium frame with an AR or ScR. Equip Player 2 in a scout suit with a SG. Move players into slapping distance of one another. Activate Super-Strafe on Player 1. Instruct Player 2 to fire shotgun into Player 1's back. Log hit/miss counts and combat duration. Dev Experiment Request B: Replicate above setup, but reorient Player 1 to face Player 2. Instruct Player 1 to Hip Fire while Super Strafing. Log outcome over 50 or so iterations. Dev Analysis Request A: Query accuracy rates for known Shotgunners in Chromosome. Query accuracy rates for the same Shotgunners in Uprising. Compare accuracy rates. Interim Fix Suggestion: Slightly increase Shotgun Pellet Count. Slightly increase Shotgun Spread. Repeat buff cycle until Shotgun performs as intended. Undo above buffs once CQC mechanics are corrected. - Shotty GoBang Edit: Will repost above request/suggestion in a new thread.
OZAROW A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 232	Posted - 2013.07.26 00:11:00 - [14] - Quote Still makes no sense, the distance on a sg has been totally nerfed and to spend millions of points just to bring the rof down to 72 when a maxed out mass driver can pin you down from range an shoot 2 rounds to your one! Everybody flipped on how fast a fayloc could spam shots, you mean to tell me in the future a grenade launcher shooting huge grenades fires faster than a shotgun? Na makes no sense. The skills to a shotgun have been made obsolete due to the tweaking of other weapons, an this post is not to nerf other weapons but more so to have the sg looked at again. The operation tightens the spread per level, the proficiency increases rof, while every other weapon in the game receives a damage bonus. So now you basically have a slug that is deadly if you get a guy two feet away in the back of the head; better off using my knives at least their silent! If I have to get to nova knive distance an attack as if I had nova knives to be effective; wouldn't I just use nova knives? With the strafe speed so high you have a better chance not leveling up your sg an keeping the spead really wide, since the sp dump into proficiency basically means your shooting a slug with a 72 rof instead of 85 all for a total cost of oh say close to 3 million sp; to what, have a guy slightly move to the left an hit your feet with 2 shots fro A mass driver in the amount of time it takes me to fire one more round? Come on those are crappy stats an odds considering strafing speeds , it makes the gun mostly only useful from behind, a side arm is more effective than this weapon face to face. Sg stats an hit detection need a second look
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 836	Posted - 2013.07.26 00:15:00 - [15] - Quote OZAROW wrote: A core mass driver is 372.7 damage without mods It's rate of fire is 46.2!!!!!!!!!!!! A duvolle shotgun is 44.0 damage An get this..... Rate of fire is 85.7!!!!!!! WTF a mass driver proficiency gives damage 3% per level that means 428.2 DAMAGE WITHOUT MODS Tha sg proficiency isn't even damage it's 3% reduction to rof Means the fastest it will shoot is 72.8 DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE?! Ccp fix my shot gun this is stupid! Yet another reason why armour is so under balanced vs..... well everything.....
Cosgar ParagonX 3200	Posted - 2013.07.26 00:15:00 - [16] - Quote 2Bee Smith wrote: Thats with a direct impact, which is near impossible to hit on a moving target that is more than 20 meters away You'd be surprised by the deceptively long range the breach SG has. It really reaches out and touches people.
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 863	Posted - 2013.07.26 00:26:00 - [17] - Quote OZAROW wrote: Still makes no sense, the distance on a sg has been totally nerfed and to spend millions of points just to bring the rof down to 72 when a maxed out mass driver can pin you down from range an shoot 2 rounds to your one! Everybody flipped on how fast a fayloc could spam shots, you mean to tell me in the future a grenade launcher shooting huge grenades fires faster than a shotgun? Na makes no sense. The skills to a shotgun have been made obsolete due to the tweaking of other weapons, an this post is not to nerf other weapons but more so to have the sg looked at again. The operation tightens the spread per level, the proficiency increases rof, while every other weapon in the game receives a damage bonus. So now you basically have a slug that is deadly if you get a guy two feet away in the back of the head; better off using my knives at least their silent! If I have to get to nova knive distance an attack as if I had nova knives to be effective; wouldn't I just use nova knives? With the strafe speed so high you have a better chance not leveling up your sg an keeping the spead really wide, since the sp dump into proficiency basically means your shooting a slug with a 72 rof instead of 85 all for a total cost of oh say close to 3 million sp; to what, have a guy slightly move to the left an hit your feet with 2 shots fro A mass driver in the amount of time it takes me to fire one more round? Come on those are crappy stats an odds considering strafing speeds , it makes the gun mostly only useful from behind, a side arm is more effective than this weapon face to face. Sg stats an hit detection need a second look ate my post. rewriting...
OZAROW A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 232	Posted - 2013.07.26 01:11:00 - [18] - Quote Cosgar wrote: 2Bee Smith wrote: Thats with a direct impact, which is near impossible to hit on a moving target that is more than 20 meters away You'd be surprised by the deceptively long range the breach SG has. It really reaches out and touches people. Ya I switched over to it today an I think that's my $/-/% right there, so if you get proficiency an relOad high it makes the breach the cats a$$
Thor McStrut Reckoners 67	Posted - 2013.07.26 02:39:00 - [19] - Quote You can discuss balance once you figure out how to calculate and apply bonuses. Until then, keep your thoughts to yourself. The SG is perhaps the best counter to the MD. I can confirm that I'm killed by damped SG scouts more than nearly anything else. Hit detection issues aside, the SG is working well as is. It's a CQB flanking weapon. Not a shoot across the map OHK machine.
OZAROW A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 232	Posted - 2013.07.26 04:30:00 - [20] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: OZAROW wrote: Still makes no sense, the distance on a sg has been totally nerfed and to spend millions of points just to bring the rof down to 72 when a maxed out mass driver can pin you down from range an shoot 2 rounds to your one! Everybody flipped on how fast a fayloc could spam shots, you mean to tell me in the future a grenade launcher shooting huge grenades fires faster than a shotgun? Na makes no sense. The skills to a shotgun have been made obsolete due to the tweaking of other weapons, an this post is not to nerf other weapons but more so to have the sg looked at again. The operation tightens the spread per level, the proficiency increases rof, while every other weapon in the game receives a damage bonus. So now you basically have a slug that is deadly if you get a guy two feet away in the back of the head; better off using my knives at least their silent! If I have to get to nova knive distance an attack as if I had nova knives to be effective; wouldn't I just use nova knives? With the strafe speed so high you have a better chance not leveling up your sg an keeping the spead really wide, since the sp dump into proficiency basically means your shooting a slug with a 72 rof instead of 85 all for a total cost of oh say close to 3 million sp; to what, have a guy slightly move to the left an hit your feet with 2 shots fro A mass driver in the amount of time it takes me to fire one more round? Come on those are crappy stats an odds considering strafing speeds , it makes the gun mostly only useful from behind, a side arm is more effective than this weapon face to face. Sg stats an hit detection need a second look ate my post. rewriting...done. You seem to misunderstand what the RoF actually displays. Just for reference the AR has a RoF of 750. Now by your understanding it should be almost 10 times slower than the SG. Now is it? Of course not. The RoF displays shots per minute. That's 85.7 shots per minute that your SG fires compared to the MDs 46.2. Note which one of those two is actually almost twice as fast as the other. It's not the MD but the SG. Next calculating the skill bonus we just increase the RoF by 3% per level: 85.7*1.15=98,555 There. I'm not going to engage in the balance discussion as i don't currently have a problem with either. Just wanted to make a few things clearer. You on crack , who learned you how to math lol It decreases the rof , you subtract it not add it! It's reduction to the weapon says so right in the skill. An I seriously doubt you can shoot a sg 85 times in a minute considering you would have to fire the whole clip an reload 3 more times nice try FAIL KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT BEFORE TRYING TO MAKE SOMEONE LOOK DUMB Maybe your think twelve pellets a shot makes the number your thinking about but if the spread is so tight strafing speed so high you gotta use three shots just to kill a guy that's jumping , strafing an firing explosive rounds Hence this thread!

OZAROW A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 232	Posted - 2013.07.26 04:35:00 - [21] - Quote It decreases the time between shots, the AR number is high because it's a automatic weapon no?
OZAROW A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 232	Posted - 2013.07.26 06:00:00 - [22] - Quote Thor McStrut wrote: You can discuss balance once you figure out how to calculate and apply bonuses. Until then, keep your thoughts to yourself. The SG is perhaps the best counter to the MD. I can confirm that I'm killed by damped SG scouts more than nearly anything else. Hit detection issues aside, the SG is working well as is. It's a CQB flanking weapon. Not a shoot across the map OHK machine. You really think so? I thought it had the range of a assault rifle. Oh btw read the part in the skill that says REDUCTION TO RATE OF FIRE BY 3 % anyway I think the bonuses on the gun need a fix, I could care less about your stupid noob weapon it was just a example
Thor McStrut Reckoners 67	Posted - 2013.07.26 12:14:00 - [23] - Quote OZAROW wrote: Thor McStrut wrote: You can discuss balance once you figure out how to calculate and apply bonuses. Until then, keep your thoughts to yourself. The SG is perhaps the best counter to the MD. I can confirm that I'm killed by damped SG scouts more than nearly anything else. Hit detection issues aside, the SG is working well as is. It's a CQB flanking weapon. Not a shoot across the map OHK machine. You really think so? I thought it had the range of a assault rifle. Oh btw read the part in the skill that says REDUCTION TO RATE OF FIRE BY 3 % anyway I think the bonuses on the gun need a fix, I could care less about your stupid noob weapon it was just a example This is classic CCP wording. It actually means it fires faster.
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 872	Posted - 2013.07.26 12:55:00 - [24] - Quote OZAROW wrote: It decreases the time between shots Correct. That's why the RoF goes up, not down. OZAROW wrote: the AR number is high because it's a automatic weapon no? No it's because that's how fast it can fire. Wether or not it's automatic is irrelevant to this metric just as the lost time due to reloads is. The Displayed RoF of the SG for example would not change a bit even if it had a one minute reload time per shell. OZAROW wrote: KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT BEFORE TRYING TO MAKE SOMEONE LOOK DUMB I totally agree. But why then are you insulting me for politely pointing out a flaw in your understanding of relevant gameplay mechanics and the display thereof?
OZAROW A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 236	Posted - 2013.07.26 15:25:00 - [25] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: OZAROW wrote: It decreases the time between shots Correct. That's why the RoF goes up, not down. OZAROW wrote: the AR number is high because it's a automatic weapon no? No. It's because that's how fast it can fire. Wether or not it's automatic is irrelevant to this metric just as the lost time due to reloads is. The Displayed RoF of the SG for example would not change a bit even if it had a one minute reload time per shell. OZAROW wrote: KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT BEFORE TRYING TO MAKE SOMEONE LOOK DUMB I totally agree. But why then are you insulting me for politely pointing out a flaw in your understanding of relevant gameplay mechanics and the display thereof? My bad then ussually people are jerks here, but if this is true that would mean the shotgun fires faster than the md, yet in battle not so much the case. So your saying a reduction causes the number to increase so more rounds per minute an in the shotguns case it's including all pellets each doing 44 damage ; so twelve pellets do 528 providing they all strike. But since you have to be standing 3 feet from a guy an the hit doesn't register an now my rof is in the 90 s I'm supposed to get 2 shots off to his one? It still makes not as much sence that proficient isn't damage when in game a mass drive seems to shoot faster I gotta test this with a mass driver buddy cuz as your probably right if I understand correctly it still seems like a wasted skill . Why they wouldn't make it damage an just keep the rof the same is beyond me but after thinking about what you said I ll try it I'm at proficiency 2 an really don't see a huge increase on two shots, maybe a higher percentage will help


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