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ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
961
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Posted - 2013.07.23 18:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote:ladwar wrote:Void Echo wrote:AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote:Its as the title says. I feel as though tanks are fine just as they are. The sight of a tank still fills me with dread even now. I know that the argument comes from people who have lost tanks to AV nades and swarm launchers and forge guns, but the fact of the matter is that a really good tank fit reigns absolute F%$#KING TERROR on the battle field. Speccing into your free antiarmor suit has no effect on a good tank fit at all. Period. Only if multiple people refit into the AV role can they take down a good tanker. The way I see it, is that it works in levels.
A basic tank fit can be taken down by multiple (read: 2 or more) basic AV fits or a lone wolf (read, singuar) advanced or proto AV fit.
Advanced tank fits can only be taken down by multiple advanced/basic fits or a lone wolf proto AV fit.
Proto Uber tanks need multiple proto/adv/basic fits to do the necessary amount of damage to counteract repair modules, smart tanking practices and return fire.
This is the way it should work, and I believe that it is the way it does work. Don't come crying because you park your car in the middle of a battle and expect to go 50-0 without actually trying. Just because it costs a lot of ISK doesn't mean it is a win button. For goodness sakes, even if you get taken out by an opposing AV player, you HAVE to realize that refitting into an AV role puts one at risk to opposing infantry fire (especially now that the flaylock's been nerfed). So those people destroying you are putting themselves at risk. If you're communicating with your own infantry - telling them that you're taking fire and telling them to take the fight to the enemy so that refitting into an AV role is too costly - theres a decreased likelihood that you'll be squashed to pieces. You can't just expect that since you're in a tank you're invincible.
Tanks still terrify me. They still own, but like anything else in this game, they require attention. Keep in mind that going AV is not cheap - Wiyrokimi or whatever av grenades are a pain in the rear to fit and are useless against infantry. Choosing to equip those grenades is a compromise for an infantry player because they give up the ability to use anti-infantry grenades - the PG/CPU costs of those grenades is also astronomical meaning they must give up the use of the best protective modules (proto shield/armor) or weapons modifiers. The AV role is one that I think is already full of compromises - and its not like even at proto that they can single handedly take down a smart, active, aware tanker.
Those dropships though? They are like little kittens. They really need a buff. None of this really applies to dropships. Only the very best dropship pilots even stand a chance. your 1st problem with this post... there are no advanced tanks. your 2nd problem with this post.. there are no prototype tanks.. we only have standard and militia tanks, but we have advanced and prototype modules.. the only proto modules i would say are the turrets. the second tier modules are only at advanced at best so no proto modules because turrets are not modules. proto armor hardeners but thts about it. it requires lvl 5. skill wise. meta lvl 3=standard so SP it would but meta lvl wise it doesn't which is where it power is based from not the SP. |
Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
345
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Posted - 2013.07.23 18:54:00 -
[32] - Quote
As it stands it's fine. Proto AV > Standard Tank The problem isn't that tanks in general are UP, the problem is that there are only lower tier tanks, that still have to contend with higher tier AV. I think the price should be reduced though. |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2056
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Posted - 2013.07.23 18:55:00 -
[33] - Quote
Someone said that tanks are good PC-wise.
Nope.
There's a reason they are there, yes, without a counter, the blasters are great, so the enemy usually brings in AV tanks to keep AI tanks from moving in. Then again, I've seen battles with no Tanks on one team, and they've won by a landslide. When I'm in a tank, I'm actually talking to the AVer on my team so he can deal with the tank so I can just shoot people and guard a point, I'm literally a heavy with more HP ^_^
But unless you're playing against **** corps, you're going to run up against mostly prototype players, most of which have prototype AV, many matches I just give up trying to use my tank, because if I carry it on it's very easy to lose between 5-50 Million ISK in a match (I've heard someone losing 40mil once, ouch.) |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
961
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 19:12:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Someone said that tanks are good PC-wise.
Nope.
There's a reason they are there, yes, without a counter, the blasters are great, so the enemy usually brings in AV tanks to keep AI tanks from moving in. Then again, I've seen battles with no Tanks on one team, and they've won by a landslide. When I'm in a tank, I'm actually talking to the AVer on my team so he can deal with the tank so I can just shoot people and guard a point, I'm literally a heavy with more HP ^_^
But unless you're playing against **** corps, you're going to run up against mostly prototype players, most of which have prototype AV, many matches I just give up trying to use my tank, because if I carry it on it's very easy to lose between 5-50 Million ISK in a match (I've heard someone losing 40mil once, ouch.) this is usually true. most tanks spend the whole match fighting the other tanks or running scared from av. |
MarasdF Loron
Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack
25
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Posted - 2013.07.23 19:22:00 -
[35] - Quote
Sotapopthegrey gay wrote: I believe, that theres a time and a place to bring out a tank.
What about those who only have SP invested in tanks, huh? You're saying that there's a time and place for us to play the game, huh? Is that what you are saying?
Sotapopthegrey gay wrote: don't bring it out then.
Oh, wait... you're saying "don't play the game then"... oh.. ok.
AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote: I understand that point. The way isk is given out is kind of weird/arbitray. But at the same time it discourages people like the above from spamming those tanks, which are invincible unless you're an AV player (who is out of their range, because even if you're AV and you're too close, you'll die. Period)
Judging by your post you are one of those people who face hevies from the front when you yourself are a scout. L2P. No one is supposed to be able to handle all situations. You seem to think that in order for us to be on the same level you would want to be able to kill tanks with your AR. |
AfroSunshineY Consequence
Clan Choinnich
46
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Posted - 2013.07.23 19:36:00 -
[36] - Quote
BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote:Galvan Nized wrote:BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote:Tanks r not balanced from an isk stand point. My standard tank tanks 3-4 games to make up and thts if it's my cheap fit. a STANDARD tank. wat will proto be. or ADV. and even the STD enforcer tanks take like 10-15 games to pay for In pub matches this is correct but not in PC matches. In PC it's pretty balanced, at least with clone packs. 1 tank we'll say is 1.5 million and 1 clone is 300k (30mil/100 clones). That's 1.8 million. The average person will run full proto if they can so 150k per suit. Plus the 300k per clone is 450k. So if you kill 4 players with your tank you have broke even with the enemy if you kill more well you're winning the ISK race. And what tanker doesn't have a 4+KDR? This doesn't even bring up the clones greater intrinsic value to the match. There is a reason tanks are heavily used in PC. in PC tanks die a **** ton. so u end up losing isk. especially if ur against Teamplayers. XD. and if u lose u get nothing.
Everyone loses Isk in PC. The cost of tanks is to balance their effectiveness. you can't just spam them *facepalm*
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AfroSunshineY Consequence
Clan Choinnich
46
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Posted - 2013.07.23 19:45:00 -
[37] - Quote
MarasdF Loron wrote:Sotapopthegrey gay wrote: I believe, that theres a time and a place to bring out a tank.
What about those who only have SP invested in tanks, huh? You're saying that there's a time and place for us to play the game, huh? Is that what you are saying? Sotapopthegrey gay wrote: don't bring it out then.
Ok, you got me. AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote: I understand that point. The way isk is given out is kind of weird/arbitray. But at the same time it discourages people like the above from spamming those tanks, which are invincible unless you're an AV player (who is out of their range, because even if you're AV and you're too close, you'll die. Period)
Judging by your post you are one of those people who face hevies from the front when you yourself are a scout. L2P. No one is supposed to be able to handle all situations. You seem to think that in order for us to be on the same level you would want to be able to kill tanks with your AR.
Get out of here with that man. Your argument is weak sauce. I would never touch an AR. Tanks cost a lot. Skill wise and isk wise. So they dominate. There is no effective infantry counter to them except AV - Swarms, Forge, AV nades. The point I'm making is that while counters exist, they are not effective unless used in a group or on a less-well fit tank. Uber Proto tanks (and I'm going to keep calling them that because you @$$holes know exactly what I mean when I say proto tank and you're just nitpicking because you have no argument) can only be taken down with a coordinated effort.
it just seems to me that tankers aren't so opposed to the supposed OPness of AV suits as they are to the fact tht those suits exist in the first place. It just seems as though those people expect - since they paid a lot for their tanks, that there should be no counters - well listen up. There are counters. But those counters require compromise in and of themselves. That's why I emphasize again: Tanks are fine. I'm not saying HTFU, because if tweaks are necessary they should be made. But stop this nonsense where you're all crying because your win button got broke by a team of dedicated AV players.
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Aythadis Smith
The Generals EoN.
103
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Posted - 2013.07.23 19:54:00 -
[38] - Quote
Invisible swarms plus the hit indicator lies + unknown where to his ( because you can't see them and as far as you know, your rolling right into him) = cheap death. Drop ships get the worst end because the whole map at that point is danger zone. Plushy can rock them right into a building .... Boom |
MarasdF Loron
Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack
25
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Posted - 2013.07.23 19:59:00 -
[39] - Quote
AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote: Get out of here with that man. Your argument is weak sauce. I would never touch an AR. Tanks cost a lot. Skill wise and isk wise. So they dominate. There is no effective infantry counter to them except AV - Swarms, Forge, AV nades. The point I'm making is that while counters exist, they are not effective unless used in a group or on a less-well fit tank. Uber Proto tanks (and I'm going to keep calling them that because you @$$holes know exactly what I mean when I say proto tank and you're just nitpicking because you have no argument) can only be taken down with a coordinated effort.
it just seems to me that tankers aren't so opposed to the supposed OPness of AV suits as they are to the fact tht those suits exist in the first place. It just seems as though those people expect - since they paid a lot for their tanks, that there should be no counters - well listen up. There are counters. But those counters require compromise in and of themselves. That's why I emphasize again: Tanks are fine. I'm not saying HTFU, because if tweaks are necessary they should be made. But stop this nonsense where you're all crying because your win button got broke by a team of dedicated AV players.
Lol call it proto if you want but the fact remains that the only proto we got is the turrets. Oh and yeah, one 50k suit can keep the tank hiding the whole game and you don't think that's OP? Or if the tank is caught at a bad moment it can be destroyed in mere seconds by that 50k suit. |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2062
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 20:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote:Sotapopthegrey gay wrote: I believe, that theres a time and a place to bring out a tank.
What about those who only have SP invested in tanks, huh? You're saying that there's a time and place for us to play the game, huh? Is that what you are saying? Sotapopthegrey gay wrote: don't bring it out then.
Ok, you got me. AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote: I understand that point. The way isk is given out is kind of weird/arbitray. But at the same time it discourages people like the above from spamming those tanks, which are invincible unless you're an AV player (who is out of their range, because even if you're AV and you're too close, you'll die. Period)
Judging by your post you are one of those people who face hevies from the front when you yourself are a scout. L2P. No one is supposed to be able to handle all situations. You seem to think that in order for us to be on the same level you would want to be able to kill tanks with your AR. Get out of here with that man. Your argument is weak sauce. I would never touch an AR. Tanks cost a lot. Skill wise and isk wise. So they dominate. There is no effective infantry counter to them except AV - Swarms, Forge, AV nades. The point I'm making is that while counters exist, they are not effective unless used in a group or on a less-well fit tank. Uber Proto tanks (and I'm going to keep calling them that because you @$$holes know exactly what I mean when I say proto tank and you're just nitpicking because you have no argument) can only be taken down with a coordinated effort. it just seems to me that tankers aren't so opposed to the supposed OPness of AV suits as they are to the fact tht those suits exist in the first place. It just seems as though those people expect - since they paid a lot for their tanks, that there should be no counters - well listen up. There are counters. But those counters require compromise in and of themselves. That's why I emphasize again: Tanks are fine. I'm not saying HTFU, because if tweaks are necessary they should be made. But stop this nonsense where you're all crying because your win button got broke by a team of dedicated AV players.
Bad.
AV can and will solo them, there goes your "only effective when used in a group", as explained in my thread "Armor Tanks and how to deal with them" which kind of covers both tanks, being an idiot and just firing swarms off with no tactical approach will not make things easy for yourself. Same with Tanks, Tanks cannot just rush into a group expecting to live, as we get nailed by AV grenades very easily.
You keep saying "Uber Proto" tanks and the only think we see is an idiot with no clue what he's talking about, if you're talking about Standard Tanks with very skilled players driving them, then call them that.
It's sad that this is all you're taking from our responses, that said I s'pose we're not being totally helpful because we're very tired of idiots coming along and telling us how to do play our play style, despite some of us being here doing the same thing for months, "Adapting" and dying, a lot.
Tankers understand AV is the counter, but many things are not right, such as cost. We don't care that you've killed our tank with swarms, it's to be expected, what we care about is that suit cost you under 100k, whilst the tank cost over a Million ISK, this means you'll cover you losses if you died once, we have to play 5 games to cover our losses.
Also, we're not "crying because our win button got broke by a team of dedicated AV players", we expect this and want this to be the case, we're crying about the fact the only way for an Armor tank to be viable in this current build, is managing their reps as effectively as they can, as it can heal 100% of their HP back in 15 seconds, a pulse every 1 second, and this looks set to be removed so the reps are in line with Shields, repping a pulse every 3 seconds for 15 seconds, that's 5 pulses instead of 15. |
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