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Cosgar
ParagonX
3021
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Posted - 2013.07.22 19:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Here's the problem. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
3043
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Posted - 2013.07.23 03:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:In my honest opinion I'd like to say that you misinterpret the lecture on powercreep. CCP didn't make AV strong because they wanted to do a quick job of it. They made it so because a person who has speced into tanks wouldn't hold more power than their infantry friends. Dust isn't an MMO like WOW and there aren't simply enough content so that CCP would use the easy button and give players pure power instead of creative ideas. How would they had run out of ideas if they haven't released the third of the content they have planned?
You're missing the point. Dust is suffering from power creep because of several reasons. One of which is that we're all in a situation where prototype equipment is so much better than everything else and so accessible, that you have to use it, just to keep up with everyone else. Suits are cheaper than what they were in Chrome and we're all swimming in ISK. Also, with the skill tree being so linear, you're pretty much limited to one suit frame and one weapon. But with such a sufficient gap between standard, advanced and prototype or no incentive to be versatile while being somewhat effective against an army or prototype, everyone is rooted to one suit frame, and usually one weapon making the game stale.
EVE stays fresh because there's so many different incomparables through how the ships aren't flat out better than each other, but rather offer different options and bonuses. Also the skill system is set up in a way that you're not on a linear path and can branch off freely without sacrificing effectiveness. In Dust we have STD, ADV, and PRO suits, which creates a ladder of power that you're encouraged to climb and once you get to the top, the lower rungs of the ladder are all but useless. Why use STD or ADV suits when you have access to PRO? Weapons and modules at least force to to pick and choose what to use because they're limited by CPU/PG costs, prototype suits can be spammed, does get spammed, and without incomparables to add value to STD/ADV, will continue to be spammed. At least that's the way I see it. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
3044
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Posted - 2013.07.23 03:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:Cosgar wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:In my honest opinion I'd like to say that you misinterpret the lecture on powercreep. CCP didn't make AV strong because they wanted to do a quick job of it. They made it so because a person who has speced into tanks wouldn't hold more power than their infantry friends. Dust isn't an MMO like WOW and there aren't simply enough content so that CCP would use the easy button and give players pure power instead of creative ideas. How would they had run out of ideas if they haven't released the third of the content they have planned? You're missing the point. Dust is suffering from power creep because of several reasons. One of which is that we're all in a situation where prototype equipment is so much better than everything else and so accessible, that you have to use it, just to keep up with everyone else. Suits are cheaper than what they were in Chrome and we're all swimming in ISK. Also, with the skill tree being so linear, you're pretty much limited to one suit frame and one weapon. But with such a sufficient gap between standard, advanced and prototype or no incentive to be versatile while being somewhat effective against an army or prototype, everyone is rooted to one suit frame, and usually one weapon making the game stale. EVE stays fresh because there's so many different incomparables through how the ships aren't flat out better than each other, but rather offer different options and bonuses. Also the skill system is set up in a way that you're not on a linear path and can branch off freely without sacrificing effectiveness. In Dust we have STD, ADV, and PRO suits, which creates a ladder of power that you're encouraged to climb and once you get to the top, the lower rungs of the ladder are all but useless. Why use STD or ADV suits when you have access to PRO? Weapons and modules at least force to to pick and choose what to use because they're limited by CPU/PG costs, prototype suits can be spammed, does get spammed, and without incomparables to add value to STD/ADV, will continue to be spammed. At least that's the way I see it. Refund then increase Proto Gear Price?
Proto should be flat out more expensive, but ISK shouldn't be the only balancing factor. I'd say take the stats/slots that prototype has and give those to all the suit tiers so they all have the same stats. Then make each tier offer more bonuses in one direction, while giving up slots or stats in another. Like for example, lets say the ADV Minmatar logi his faster, has more stamina/regen than the STD variant, but at the cost of one equipment slot. One suit wouldn't be better than the other in that aspect because the ADV suit would be better in one situation while the STD isn't completely devalued. Basically what I'm getting at is to find a way to reincorportate the T-1, T-2, A-Series and B-Series suit system we had in Chrome into standard, advanced, and prototype to make each tier different, instead of more powerful than the other.
I should probably make a topic on this, huh? |
Cosgar
ParagonX
3063
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Posted - 2013.07.23 09:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:Gogo O'Dell wrote:Princeps Marcellus wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:That is obviously and active module tanks, so why would you expect it to survive Pro nades with a nanohive to back them up when the tank itself isn't running the modules?
Not to sound like a **** I must say that I took care to not pop up on his radar, I crouched and moved like a turtle until I felt it was the moment to strike. Pretty much this. Pyrex has made it quite clear that he uses a keyboard and mouse, and this combined with the fact that he prefers using active modules easily explains why he can't take a hit from AV nades. I don't see infantry running around with modules on. You have to understand that it took 3 seconds for his tank to go from 6600 armor to 0. In 3 seconds, he lost 1.4 million isk (maybe more around 8k for that tank but a tank with a better turret would be 1.4); now he has to grind 4-6 games in free gear, raking in 250k a match to break even. That is not balance. Our deaths are far more costly than the most expensive infantry fit. Even if a tank goes 30:0 and kills 4 tanks, he will still not take in more than 400k, on average, and it still isn't balanced. Infantry have the option of running cheap gear, getting killed a lot, and profitin; tanks do not. Running a cheap tank outside of the redline will get you killed every single time if the enemy tank has proto AV. So we are forced to run top of the line fits that cost between 800k, 1.4 mil, and 2.5 mil to have a chance at profit. The risk vs reward balance does not exist due to how hard it is to make a tank last between 4( for lower grade decent tanks) to 2.5 (for the most expensive tanks). Bc of the murder taxi situation, every player with over 10mil SP that is intelligent has one type of AV by now, and that means that going up against a full squad of good players means that calling a tank = death. It is not this way for infantry running a proto suit, as I can take a proto suit against the same team and not die- and i dont even have a good gun game compared to the really good players. gear-based matchamking would fix this, as std tanks would only go against standard gear and profit would be much easier because most good tankers can handle 3 std AV guys before theyre in trouble. The crappy tankers might take 1-2, and the best take 4-5. That is balance. Honestly, it isn't even that tanks are weak or tanks are UP, but that we have PRO AV going against STD tanks. It's the same issue as squads of proto players stomping a team of newberries. Then the newberries/tankers redline snipe and everyone gets mad. The tank problem is all based on matchmaking and this is why matchamking based on SP or WP would drive all of the senior tankers away, as EVERY match would be against squads of proto AV. Matchmaking would solve a host of issues (except LLAV issue...I use them and they are easily prototype, as it takes about 3 wiki swarms to take one of them down. Cry me a river you whiny tank driver. You and everyone like you make me sick. Yes, it's expensive. Yes, it's a risk, YES, IT'S A GIANT FREAKIN' TARGET.If you can't accept the fact that every time you bring it on the field, people who dedicated the majority of their SP in to Prototype AV, or people who just plain see a tank in a pub match as an insult to everyone in the match (AKA people like me) are going to go OUT OF THEIR WAY TO SEE YOU BLOWN UP. The fact that you even bring the tank in to a pub match is the worth part. PC? Go for it. FW? Borderline, but go for it(Most squads roll that place hardcore). But a pub match? It's worse than proto stomping, and I have no sympathy when you lose your shiny expensive toy - reguardless of how easy you lost it. "Oh, I went 28-0, 18-0, 31-0, THEN I LOST A TANK Q_Q THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN FIX MY TANK CCP!" You people make me sick.
Do you like cheap deaths from people spamming flaylocks at you? Tanks don't like cheap deaths from proto AV grenades, especially when they don't have AV tanks. Common sense man, use it. |
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