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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.07.21 08:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
lol
+1
OP, just go with a Caldari Assault and Assault Rifle.... you can't go wrong. After you max those out, then feel free to dabble in niche roles. |
Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.07.26 00:54:00 -
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1 and 2 hit kills are exactly where snipers should be.
If you're 2-shotting proto suits, you're doing good.
It gets lame when it starts to take 3, 4, or more shots when you have max proficiency and damage mods. |
Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.07.26 02:17:00 -
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TechMechMeds wrote:Yeah agreed that when sniping actually takes alot more skill then yeah, at the moment dust sniping is the easiest in any game iv ever played next to auto aim as a kid gamer. If there was sway and bullet drop and the ability to hold your breath to stop sway for a time based on stamina then yeah but as it stands its too easy, iv gone 48/1 sniping and im not that good at it. This is just my opinion but the FACT is that sniping is already too ea  sy to implement that amount of damage.
If public matches were the sole criteria by which sniping could be judged, I would agree with you.
But my criteria are high-tier PC battles. Where both teams are working 100% organically.
In that context, sniping is highly insufficient as a supporting anti-infantry weapon.
When you're on a good team, taking on another good team with skilled experienced players. It's awesome and intense.
When I was running my Cal Assault, the snipers weren't there. To my memory.... a sniper has never even killed me in a PC battle when i was running assault.
It just will not happen.
Challenge Eon to a PC match. Bring your snipers. Watch and see how you get railroaded. Remember the battle. Don't repeat it.
The FUNCTION of sniping in Dust IS easy, it's the APPLICATION in significant battles that takes skill.
Went 13/1 in the last PC battle I was in. One suicide, just to switch to my Thale's.... its the only sniper that functions well vs. everyone. Locked down my objective and its perimeter using a combination of REs and sniper fire. Changed positions regularly to throw sniper fire at heavy choke points. Again, the practical application of a sniper rifle is what takes skill, not just it's function.
Can you finish that hostile off before he kills your buddy?
Can you neutralize that hostile squad running out in the open?
The problem with sniper rifles is that when you get into "True Proto level" (proto suits, proto modules, proto weapons) any sniper rifle short of the Thale's is grossly underpowered. I HAD to switch to the Thale's for my sniper fire to be efficient in that match. Why couldn't the Ishukone do it? Takes 3-4 rounds to drop someone. Too weak. The Kaalakiota? Don't make me laugh. It's RoF means batshit when it shoots only 3 weak rounds. The Charge? Now you're talking, but in heavy fighting, that RoF is very poor for significant support.
Proto rifles vs. powerful opponents in meaningful battles have VERY poor TTK. It all boils down to TTK (time to kill). It would be great if Tactical sniper rifles had 5 rounds, and the Charge was a guaranteed OHK (it does about 440 neutral body damage. -10% vs. shields. +10% vs. armor, but it's TTK is still bad.)
All this is said with vs. high-end proto in mind. Sniper rifles are balanced fine for your every day pub stomp. But the high-end fights is where they are really suffering a lack.
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.07.26 02:44:00 -
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Spirit Charm wrote:How bout I start over on what I wanted in the first place.
3 things.
1. Range. I hate how it does so little over the effective range. Just saying I hate it. Not sure on the numbers of range present. But I was wondering how these numbers would work.
First in order of type of rifle.
Militia - 300m effective range. with a damage decrease of .05% every meter up to 350m and 1% at every meter till 400m and it stays that way. that is a 75% less damage at 400m and 100% at 300m
Standard - Effective range 400m same with above with the damage decrease.
Advance would be 450m and Prototype would be 500m.
2. Scope. The scope would only work on standard - Prototypes. Militia stays the same now. But when zoomed in with L1 you press your Melee and it adds more zoom. I was thinking twice the zoom in but think that might be too much.
3 Difference between the Riffles.
Militia - Damage 130
Range 300m
Clip size 3
Fire rate normal
Reload speed Slow
Standard - Damage 200
Range 400m
Clip size 5
Fire rate Normal
Enhanced zoom
Reload speed normal
Advance - Damage 240
Range 450m
Clip size 3
Fire rate slow
Enhanced zoom
Reload speed slow
Prototype - Damage 268
Range 500m
Clip size 2
Fire rate normal
Enhanced zoom
Reload speed fast
Normal Fire rate is based on present numbers. Fast is 35% - 50% faster. Slow is 35% -50% slower.
Normal Reload speed is based on present numbers. Fast is 25% - 35% faster. Slow is 40% - 50% slower. Not sure where the numbers should be. This is I think a better draft of numbers. Tact Rifles are somewhere between 50% - 75% effectiveness then normal rifles.
Honestly, you don't need to touch the base damages.
The current base damages are perfectly fine. It's the new damage profile that fked up the proto snipers at the higher end.
The sniper rifle before 1.2 didn't discriminate. It hit shields and armor the same. 100%/100%.
When they swapped that to 90%/110%, they literally lopped off 10% damage from every sniper rifle's opening shot AND follow-up shot (vs. Heavies and High-End gear).
The damage profile is calculated AFTER your base damage and multipliers. Which means that whatever your total damage output is, exactly 10% of that number is getting totally lopped off vs. shields.
That is a significant amount of damage lost, and at the higher end, that measly 10% decides whether someone takes 2-shots to kill or 3. Or if someone takes 3 shots to kill, taking 4.
Considering the sniper rifle's small clip sizes, and no anti-shield biased sniper rifles being released, you dramatically reduce a sniper rifle's effectiveness, even when it's being properly applied.
It's not the base damages, it's the god-damned damage profile. |
Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.07.28 09:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:Jathniel wrote:TechMechMeds wrote:Yeah agreed that when sniping actually takes alot more skill then yeah, at the moment dust sniping is the easiest in any game iv ever played next to auto aim as a kid gamer. If there was sway and bullet drop and the ability to hold your breath to stop sway for a time based on stamina then yeah but as it stands its too easy, iv gone 48/1 sniping and im not that good at it. This is just my opinion but the FACT is that sniping is already too ea sy to implement that amount of damage. If public matches were the sole criteria by which sniping could be judged, I would agree with you. But my criteria are high-tier PC battles. Where both teams are working 100% organically. In that context, sniping is highly insufficient as a supporting anti-infantry weapon. When you're on a good team, taking on another good team with skilled experienced players. It's awesome and intense. When I was running my Cal Assault, the snipers weren't there. To my memory.... a sniper has never even killed me in a PC battle when i was running assault. It just will not happen. Challenge Eon to a PC match. Bring your snipers. Watch and see how you get railroaded. Remember the battle. Don't repeat it. The FUNCTION of sniping in Dust IS easy, it's the APPLICATION in significant battles that takes skill. Went 13/1 in the last PC battle I was in. One suicide, just to switch to my Thale's.... its the only sniper that functions well vs. everyone. Locked down my objective and its perimeter using a combination of REs and sniper fire. Changed positions regularly to throw sniper fire at heavy choke points. Again, the practical application of a sniper rifle is what takes skill, not just it's function. Can you finish that hostile off before he kills your buddy? Can you neutralize that hostile squad running out in the open? In high-end proto matches, proto sniper rifles just CANNOT do it. The problem with sniper rifles is that when you get into "True Proto level" (proto suits, proto modules, proto weapons) any sniper rifle short of the Thale's is grossly underpowered. I HAD to switch to the Thale's for my sniper fire to be efficient in that match. Why couldn't the Ishukone do it? Takes 3-4 rounds to drop someone. Too weak. The Kaalakiota? Don't make me laugh. It's RoF means batshit when it shoots only 3 weak rounds. The Charge? Now you're talking, but in heavy fighting, that RoF is very poor for significant support. Proto rifles vs. powerful opponents in meaningful battles have VERY poor TTK. It all boils down to TTK (time to kill). It would be great if Tactical sniper rifles had 5 rounds, and the Charge was a guaranteed OHK (it does about 440 neutral body damage. -10% vs. shields. +10% vs. armor, but it's TTK is still bad.) All this is said with vs. high-end proto in mind. Sniper rifles are balanced fine for your every day pub stomp. But the high-end fights is where they are really suffering a lack. I used the 48/1 in a pub match as reference to how easy it is to snipe, iv been here since day one of closed beta, I too have played alot of corp battles and planetary conquest battles ALWAYS against the best, an example is facing imps around 23 times in a row lol. A to snipe you don't have to kill to be effective, try softening people up, you had to bring out your thales yeah because as you stated it's s high end organised match. I have been killed in 1 or two shots by a thales in planetary conquest plenty, it just seems you want planetary conquest matches as easy as pub matches for snipers.
And it seems you've missed the difference between sniper rifle functionality and actual sniper role application, again.
You claim to have fought the Imperfects 23 times in a row in PC, yet you still can't tell the difference between functionality and application for snipers?
Going 48/1 in a pub match only proves the ease of the sniper rifles functionality, but it by no means guarantees a victory.
Behold, you killed people with a sniper rifle. Anyone can do that. (Function)
Better to get 15 well-placed kills, to win a match, instead of 48 kills with a loss.
If you've been killed plenty by a Thale's in PC, that's because it's the most effective weapon for a sniper to do his job; killing the right person/people at the right time. (Application)
In PC matches, the FUNCTIONALITY is not there, so the APPLICATION cannot be there... with anything short of a Thale's.
No Thale's? You better not put that sniper in.
What good is "softening people up"?
You don't want to "soften" someone when they are hacking an objective.
You don't want to "soften" someone when they are about to kill your team mate.
The only thing you want to "soften", is the enemy team and squads as a whole, and you do that by killing.
Squad of 6 storming an objective? You "soften" it by cutting it down to a squad of 3.
Enemy squad facing your squad? You "soften" them by killing enemy flankers so your guys can push ahead and capture without needing to watch their back.
"To snipe you don't have to kill to be effective." No offense intended, but that's total nonsense.
If you want someone to soften a target at range for you, that's what Burst and Tactical ARs are for. |
Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.07.28 09:36:00 -
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Spirit Charm wrote:Niuvo wrote:I'm glad there are smart snipers that see how incompetant sniping is. I have prof. 5 with pro snipers, I got enhanced mods. I hear that the complex mods aren't cutting it either, what a joke. We need a buff and reliable PRO sniper rifles. I suggested a Boost to base damage and a better scope with a zoom. as well as lower tier rifles doing less then higher tier rifles. But no one seems to want to judge it if it was good numbers.
Because the main problem isn't the base damages.
The base damages are fine.
It's the new Damage Profile screwing sniper rifles right now. -10% damage vs. shields. Against shield heavy targets anything short of a Charge or a Thale's is a nuisance.
People want to make the sniper function require more skill, by adding ballistics, which is fine.
But if that is added to the sniper rifles as they work currently, that will break the sniper rifle completely.
It's tricky to snipe targets that a spinning around and running serpentines in a firefight, RIGHT now. So much more if you add Bullet Travel AND Bullet Drop.
Couple this with the sniper rifles **** poor RoF, and mediocre damage, and your reward for landing a hit is meaningless and not worth the effort you bothered to put in to get it.
If snipers receive ballistics, they will need variable zoom scopes, and variable bullet drop indicators that adjusts along with the zoom.
Sniper Rifles will need a larger clip (10 rounds), and for their RoF to be bumped up (at least 100 RPM).
Tactical Sniper Rifles will need a larger clip (15 or 18 rounds) and much faster RoF (at least 300 RPM), but slightly reduced muzzle velocity.
Charge Sniper Rifles will need dramatically increased muzzle velocity to cut their Bullet Travel time down.
It's only balance. I've said this before. If you want a sniper in this game to work with ballistics, you better give him the tools to do it.
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.07.28 09:56:00 -
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Bendtner92 wrote:I haven't read through this thread but I just want to chime in with some points.
When Negative-Feedback was active in Planetary Conquest at the start of it we usually used a sniper. In some matches we even used two snipers but that was mostly due to not really having a replacement for them online, and at least one of them was able to switch roles mid-battle if he had to. A sniper used right in PC can be very deadly.
Our snipers, from what I remember, mainly used the Ishukone (they will tell you the Charged is useless in these battles), and not the Thale's. I remember one of them going 23-0 in a highly competitive match, and in a lot of our matches the sniper played a very huge role in securing the victory.
Good snipers are valuable in PC matches. If you're not a top notch sniper, find another role, because bad snipers won't be needed.
Snipers are not meant to solo the entire other team. They're meant to support their team, so you better start doing just that instead complaining that you need a million shots to kill a heavy on your own. Newsflash, the heavy is supposed to be able to soak up a lot of damage.
Are you guys telling me that almost 350 body damage with the Ishukone is too little? That is around 600 headshot damage? Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea how good that is, if you're just supporting your team instead of trying to solo the other team?
Unless CCP is about to remove the damage mods and/or the proficiency skill, the damage will most certainly not be increased on the snipers. If they increased the base damage on the snipers, they'll become extremely OP with damage mods, which should be taken into account, yes.
If you're complaining that you need to have proficiency 5 and a ton of damage mods to be competitive in PC matches, then get out of here right now. What do you expect? If you're a dedicated sniper, you're exactly expected to get proficiency 5 and use at least 3 damage mods (yes, that's right, you don't necessarily need anymore than that, since the 4th and 5th damage mods don't add that much extra damage anyway).
That was before the Damage Profile change.
I don't want a a single thing to be done to the base damages.
Sniper Rifles were absolutely perfectly fine before the Damage Profile "nerf", but every 35 points off a shot, and 40 points off a shot makes a difference against players where that MINUTE difference matters. Mainly shield assaults that start regenerating shields almost instantly if you don't knock them empty.
Make sniper headshots instant kills and you will never hear a complaint out of me. |
Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.07.28 12:27:00 -
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Bendtner92 wrote:Jathniel wrote:That was before the Damage Profile change.
I don't want a a single thing to be done to the base damages.
Sniper Rifles were absolutely perfectly fine before the Damage Profile "nerf", but every 35 points off a shot, and 40 points off a shot makes a difference against players where that MINUTE difference matters. Mainly shield assaults that start regenerating shields almost instantly if you don't knock them empty.
Make sniper headshots instant kills and you will never hear a complaint out of me. The sniper is a hybrid railgun weapon and will therefore be a 90/110 weapon. The same with the forge gun, which was fine before the change, and is still fine. The sniper is fine as well. Everyone and their mother are shield tanked at the moment, which of course makes it harder for the snipers, however that is due to armor being bad. You don't solve this problem by doing anything but balancing shield vs armor. In an ideal situation, infantry would be closer to 50/50 shield/armor tankers, in which case there would be absolutely no problem with snipers. You also haven't mentioned that since heavies have more armor than shields, this damage profile change (yes, change, not nerf), have actually made them easier to kill now? And just lol at you wanting headshots to be instant kill. Would that apply to heavies with 1.2k+ HP as well? If not, why not? A headshot is a headshot, I would imagine?
So basically, you're telling me I'm absolutely wrong, but I'm absolutely right?
Sits there and admits that the problem is present because of the *intended* damage profile; exacerbated by the fact that the majority are shield assaults. Points out, that it's an effect of shields being superior to armor; thank you Mr. Obvious.
But still says "the sniper is fine as well".
lol....
A domino effect of failure does not make something fine. I'm sorry. I don't want to come across as rude. Did you have a point you wanted to make?
Heavies have more armor than they do shields? You sure? No they don't. They are 50/50 on their shields and armor. Depends on the build that a particular heavy wants to make. They can bias either/or. :)
Forge guns already 1 shot heavies on direct body hits. Something wrong with a sniper doing that on the head?
Let me particular... a Charge Sniper Rifle on headshot? Isn't that doing around 900 damage? OOPS. That's already 1-shotting Heavies.
Or would that be arguing a domino effect of failure and calling it "fine", like you did with the snipers.
I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass dude.
The only time snipers will be fine again is when we have an anti-shield variant. A racial variant sniper rifle with 110/90. When? Who knows... It should have been released when the damage profiles were altered, imho. |
Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.07.28 14:54:00 -
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Bendtner92 wrote:Jathniel wrote:So basically, you're telling me I'm absolutely wrong, but I'm absolutely right?
Sits there and admits that the problem is present because of the *intended* damage profile; exacerbated by the fact that the majority are shield assaults. Points out, that it's an effect of shields being superior to armor; thank you Mr. Obvious.
But still says "the sniper is fine as well".
lol....
A domino effect of failure does not make something fine. I'm sorry. I don't want to come across as rude. Did you have a point you wanted to make?
Heavies have more armor than they do shields? You sure? No they don't. They are 50/50 on their shields and armor. Depends on the build that a particular heavy wants to make. They can bias either/or. :)
Forge guns already 1 shot heavies on direct body hits. Something wrong with a sniper doing that on the head?
Let me particular... a Charge Sniper Rifle on headshot? Isn't that doing around 900 damage? OOPS. That's already 1-shotting Heavies.
Or would that be arguing a domino effect of failure and calling it "fine", like you did with the snipers.
I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass dude.
The only time snipers will be fine again is when we have an anti-shield variant. A racial variant sniper rifle with 110/90. When? Who knows... It should have been released when the damage profiles were altered, imho. There's no problem with the Sniper doing 90/110 damage to shield/armor since it's a hybrid railgun damage type. I just said that with the current situation with everyone shield tanking the Sniper might seem worse than it would be if infantry were split 50/50 between shields and armor. Heavies will generally have more armor than shields after modules are applied. Forge Gun is a heavy weapon which is naturally doing more damage, or are you also complaining about Railguns one-shotting people with direct hits? Forge Gun also has no scope and travel time, so hitting people at extreme ranges is practically impossible (the Sniper also has more range to begin with), plus the shots don't always hit at the center of the reticule. Basically stop comparing the Forge Gun with the Sniper. What's wrong with a Charged Sniper one-shotting people with headshots if it's doing more damage than the enemy has health? With that said, I think it does a little less than 900 headshot damage, plus heavies have way more health than that. If an enemy has less than 600 health you're welcome to one-shot him with a headshot with the Ishukone, I don't see a problem with that. There's also no confirmed plans for an anti-shields sniper rifle of any kind (unless the Amarr heavy weapon will act as a sniper, which I doubt as I know it will serve as both AV and AI). There is however a shorter ranged Precision Rifle coming at some point that will be doing 95/110 damage. Also you still ignored all my other points about supporting your team instead of trying to solo everyone.
lol I'M complaining about railguns OHKing? lol...
Apparently that went right over your head. I'll ignore that because I like you.
Stop trying to be a social engineer. No amount of repeating "it's fine for sniper rifles to be 90/110" is going to make it any better, when you already KNOW the facts that indicate otherwise, and you sit here and cite them. Especially you. You know better.
CCP knew good and well that the majority of players are shield assaults, and deliberate put sniper rifles at a disadvantage. No matter how slight.
They also knew armor assaults were already at a disadvantage, and put them at a further disadvantage.
That is NOT okay without a balancing caveat of some sort.
Stop recognizing that it IS unbalanced, and then saying that unbalance is okay.
"Well if everyone had a 50/50 shield/armor balance it would be okay."
The point is THEY DON'T, FFS.
Who GAF about hypothetical shield/armor balances that DO NOT, and from all indications WILL NOT exist?
Snipers are fine vs. Gallente suits, they're fine vs. Amarr suits (which ARE 50/50), it's NOT fine vs. Caldari suits. In fact, idgaf about the Gallente and Amarr suits, they are NEVER a pain in the ass, the Caldari suits ALWAYS are. ALWAYS. Especially when they reach proto.
The Caldari suits are the ones that run around with reckless abandon.
The Caldari suits are the ones that swarm PC.
The Caldari suits are the ones that recover all their defense in an instant (or at least MUCH faster than everyone else).
The Caldari suits, because of the functionality of their defense, ARE the majority, and they need to get put DOWN.
Where are the niche weapons that are effective vs. shields?
Laser Rifles? Those were OP, but instead of getting balanced, they were nerfed into oblivion. I don't count flux nades, because they aren't lethal (usually).
What ARE CCP's goals for the server? Do their target numbers include a server with an even-greater Caldari suit majority? Is the Caldari suit population supposed to keep itself in check with limited to no natural counters?
As long as Caldari suits are as effectively defensively as they are. Those players will never feel much need to skill into and try anything else, for any reason other than boredom. (I played a fully-spec'd, w/ passive skills, caldari assault before my 2nd respec, I would know.)
Your points about a sniper supporting a team and not soloing the enemy shouldn't be directed at me, they should be directed at the dude claiming he went 48/1 in a pub match.
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.07.28 16:14:00 -
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Bendtner92 wrote:Well, apparently the problem would already be solved, I guess. Caldari Logis will have less shields come 1.3 and since they're your only problem everything should be fine come tuesday. What are you ranting about then? They didn't change the damage profile for the Sniper, they changed the damage profile for hybrid railguns, which inludes the Sniper (the others are the Railgun and Forge Gun + the future Rail Rifle, Bolt Pistol and Magsec SMG). If the entire other team is Caldari and you know you won't be effective as a sniper, then why are you rolling as sniper? Honestly though, I don't really know why a 30-35 damage "nerf" against Caldari suits is worth crying over. If you're supporting your team you're either killing the Caldari, getting assists on them or at least pushing them back into cover until your teammates can finish them off. Either way you're an asset to your team. We don't necessarily need any more anti-shields weapons apart from an AV one. We already have the Laser, Scrambler Rifle/Pistol, AR and Shotgun. Although, more anti-shields weapons are confirmed for coming at some point, 2 heavy and 3 sidearm weapons. The only existing problem is that explosive weapons are doing more than the 120% damage to armor they're supposed to. I want respecs implemented too
True on that explosive damage.
I've gotten too use to CCP fixing one thing, and then "fixing" something else that didn't need fixing. Then leaving us high and dry afterwards.
That's kinda how it felt with the damage profile changes. Or the HMG at the start of Uprising... or you name it.
lol i end up rolling as a sniper against caldari protos, because that's what im spec'd into. lol
I'd jump into my Heavy, and try to run Flux/HMG, usually helps. But I don't have much confidence facing proto caldari anything using my gallente logi suit, unless i have decent range with a tactical. I'll win the gun game, provided I don't get too close. The distance helps the armor reps keep up with the damage in a strafe off, and the tactical AR bites holes in caldari shields...
...doesn't change the fact that I would rather rip holes in them with a sniper rifle. :) |
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Jathniel
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Posted - 2013.07.28 19:05:00 -
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Bendtner92 wrote:Well, apparently the problem would already be solved, I guess. Caldari Logis will have less shields come 1.3 and since they're your only problem everything should be fine come tuesday. What are you ranting about then? They didn't change the damage profile for the Sniper, they changed the damage profile for hybrid railguns, which inludes the Sniper (the others are the Railgun and Forge Gun + the future Rail Rifle, Bolt Pistol and Magsec SMG). If the entire other team is Caldari and you know you won't be effective as a sniper, then why are you rolling as sniper? Honestly though, I don't really know why a 30-35 damage "nerf" against Caldari suits is worth crying over. If you're supporting your team you're either killing the Caldari, getting assists on them or at least pushing them back into cover until your teammates can finish them off. Either way you're an asset to your team. We don't necessarily need any more anti-shields weapons apart from an AV one. We already have the Laser, Scrambler Rifle/Pistol, AR and Shotgun. Although, more anti-shields weapons are confirmed for coming at some point, 2 heavy and 3 sidearm weapons. The only existing problem is that explosive weapons are doing more than the 120% damage to armor they're supposed to. I want respecs implemented too
Actually on that note... Caldari logis having less shields isn't the issue.... It's the fact that they're shields are going to be going up SO damn fast. They go up fast now, and they'll be going up even faster after the update, even if the capacity comes down.
Sure hope the explosion damage makes a difference.... |
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