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Paran Tadec
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Bad science is bad.
Amount of use is not an indicator of OP'dness. |
Paran Tadec
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Paran Tadec wrote:Bad science is bad.
Amount of use is not an indicator of OP'dness. Wrong. But even going with your flawed logic (BTW it's clear to anyone with brains that people migrate to what is OP, hence the term FOTM) Even that aside, the AR overusage is killing diversity in the game. There's no point to most of the other weapons. AR usage is about equal to that of the lower used 10 out of 12 light weapons/sidearms combined! That's terrible diversity, and bad for the game regardless if you want to attach the well deserved OP moniker or not.
You're wrong. Just because something is the most used does not necessarily mean it is OP. You're making an assumption. What you need to do is focus in on players who run extremely high kills, and what gear they are using.
Ex. You got into a match that is 90% new players. The AR is the most available weapon to new players, so you will see it show up more.
Ex. When missiles were broken in previous builds, and dropships could fly untouched, 70-0 wasnt unheard of. It was however, far from used by everyone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias |
Paran Tadec
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Paran Tadec wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Paran Tadec wrote:Bad science is bad.
Amount of use is not an indicator of OP'dness. Wrong. But even going with your flawed logic (BTW it's clear to anyone with brains that people migrate to what is OP, hence the term FOTM) Even that aside, the AR overusage is killing diversity in the game. There's no point to most of the other weapons. AR usage is about equal to that of the lower used 10 out of 12 light weapons/sidearms combined! That's terrible diversity, and bad for the game regardless if you want to attach the well deserved OP moniker or not. You're wrong. Just because something is the most used does not necessarily mean it is OP. You're making an assumption. What you need to do is focus in on players who run extremely high kills, and what gear they are using. Ex. You got into a match that is 90% new players. The AR is the most available weapon to new players, so you will see it show up more. Ex. When missiles were broken in previous builds, and dropships could fly untouched, 70-0 wasnt unheard of. It was however, far from used by everyone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias Except this is what 30 matches for him? 8 for my data, and even a nice donation of PC stats. All confirm the same thing. AR is killing diversity. Look at the scrambler rifle - 10 times as many people use the AR as scrambler rifle. lol! and the AR isn't OP, nope. Here, I can do the wikipedia link too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DenialBottom line. Don't call it OP if you can't stomach the truth, but the numbers don't lie. The weapon is a huge problem for diversity in the game, and this diversity issue needs to be addressed ASAP.
Ah, 12 yr old attempts science, cute.
Firstly, all this data shows is the probability that you will encounter a certain weapon during a match. Thats it. You have no definition for OP other than "it is used frequently" without exploring the other possible reasons for why an AR would be most used ( again, it could be new players are most comfortable with it due to the name, or not realising the SCR is a type of AR for a different race)
Again, bad science.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy |
Paran Tadec
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Maximus Stryker wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Honestly, I don't expect many of you to agree with the facts. It's because you're part of the AR wielding hegemony.
Wasn't the argument against the flaylock (and other weapons before it) that people were speccing into it and getting cheap kills because it was EZ mode? And yet, it's kill count is way down the line. And here we have king AR, sitting on top of the pile, EZ mode as can be forever.
The problem is, because we're playing AR 514, anytime any weapon actually approaches the usability of the AR, it gets nerfed to be uncompetitive. This is why the AR represents nearly as many kills as all other light weapons and sidearms combined!
Call it OP, or don't. It doesn't change the facts that the devs might as well not be working on any other weapons. The AR is that dominant. Example: 130 people play and are studies: 100 people use the AR and they average 9 kills and 4 deaths 10 people use the Flaylock and average 15 kills and 2 deaths 10 people use the Mass driver and average 12 kills and 3 deaths 10 people use the Scrambler rifle and average 7 kills and 3 deaths the AR had 900 kills the FLhad 150 kills the MD had 120 kills the SR had 70 kills the AR had nearly 3 times the kill count Conclusion, the AR is OP and a dominant weapon
3x kills, but 10x more users for the idiots who cant see it for themselves. |
Paran Tadec
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:lol. keep defending your AR OP EZ mode please. Listen. The stats don't lie. The AR is a problem, it's used 10 times more than a supposedly similar weapon, the SR. All this data shows is that the AR is dominating the game, and all that time the devs spend on other weapons is wasted. That sounds like a problem to me, but just in case you need more detail: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678Also, he definitely has enough data here to reach statistical significance. Toss out OP, and you still have a huge problem. Accept the truth, and it's the biggest weapon related problem in the game. Again though, I know I'm a dissenting voice because I'm not one of the 75% relying on the crutch of the AR.
I dont have a single SP spent into AR, derpmoar.
All you can do with this data is show a probability for the chance that you will encounter a certain weapon, thats it. Its a poorly designed study for showing OP'dness. If you want to show that you need to go by the number of kills per weapon DIVIDED by the number of people using it. See above post.
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Paran Tadec
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1219
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Paran Tadec wrote:Maximus Stryker wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Honestly, I don't expect many of you to agree with the facts. It's because you're part of the AR wielding hegemony.
Wasn't the argument against the flaylock (and other weapons before it) that people were speccing into it and getting cheap kills because it was EZ mode? And yet, it's kill count is way down the line. And here we have king AR, sitting on top of the pile, EZ mode as can be forever.
The problem is, because we're playing AR 514, anytime any weapon actually approaches the usability of the AR, it gets nerfed to be uncompetitive. This is why the AR represents nearly as many kills as all other light weapons and sidearms combined!
Call it OP, or don't. It doesn't change the facts that the devs might as well not be working on any other weapons. The AR is that dominant. Example: 130 people play and are studies: 100 people use the AR and they average 9 kills and 4 deaths 10 people use the Flaylock and average 15 kills and 2 deaths 10 people use the Mass driver and average 12 kills and 3 deaths 10 people use the Scrambler rifle and average 7 kills and 3 deaths the AR had 900 kills the FLhad 150 kills the MD had 120 kills the SR had 70 kills the AR had nearly 3 times the kill count Conclusion, the AR is OP and a dominant weapon 3x kills, but 10x more users for the idiots who cant see it for themselves. Keep in mind what the OP has shown is kills, not usage.
So, you admit he has an incomplete data set, which is not reliable enough to use to draw conclusions from. Thank you.
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Paran Tadec
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1220
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Paran Tadec wrote:Buster Friently wrote:lol. keep defending your AR OP EZ mode please. Listen. The stats don't lie. The AR is a problem, it's used 10 times more than a supposedly similar weapon, the SR. All this data shows is that the AR is dominating the game, and all that time the devs spend on other weapons is wasted. That sounds like a problem to me, but just in case you need more detail: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678Also, he definitely has enough data here to reach statistical significance. Toss out OP, and you still have a huge problem. Accept the truth, and it's the biggest weapon related problem in the game. Again though, I know I'm a dissenting voice because I'm not one of the 75% relying on the crutch of the AR. I dont have a single SP spent into AR, derpmoar. All you can do with this data is show a probability for the chance that you will encounter a certain weapon, thats it. Its a poorly designed study for showing OP'dness. If you want to show that you need to go by the number of kills per weapon DIVIDED by the number of people using it. See above post. hail AR 514. Hail king AR. That's what these data show.
When the data doesnt fit your original hypothesis (OP'dness"), change it!
Bad science is bad.
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Paran Tadec
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:
Pick a scenario.
Assumptions and science generally don't. Don't do this kids.
Originally this was all about which weapons were OP, but because that is flawed (atleast with the way the data is collected) you just change what it is all about. BAD BAD BAD. |
Paran Tadec
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Paran Tadec wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Paran Tadec wrote:Buster Friently wrote:lol. keep defending your AR OP EZ mode please. Listen. The stats don't lie. The AR is a problem, it's used 10 times more than a supposedly similar weapon, the SR. All this data shows is that the AR is dominating the game, and all that time the devs spend on other weapons is wasted. That sounds like a problem to me, but just in case you need more detail: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678Also, he definitely has enough data here to reach statistical significance. Toss out OP, and you still have a huge problem. Accept the truth, and it's the biggest weapon related problem in the game. Again though, I know I'm a dissenting voice because I'm not one of the 75% relying on the crutch of the AR. I dont have a single SP spent into AR, derpmoar. All you can do with this data is show a probability for the chance that you will encounter a certain weapon, thats it. Its a poorly designed study for showing OP'dness. If you want to show that you need to go by the number of kills per weapon DIVIDED by the number of people using it. See above post. hail AR 514. Hail king AR. That's what these data show. When the data doesnt fit your original hypothesis (OP'dness"), change it! Bad science is bad. That's funny. You see, it's people like the OP and myself that are presenting the objective facts. All you've done is blow hot air. I stand by my numbers. I stand by his. Hail AR 514. Go AR or go home.
LOL, facts. You started with assumptions and bias and set out to "prove" it. That is not science, and certainly not statistics.
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Paran Tadec
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1228
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Posted - 2013.07.19 17:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Buster just stop. You have proven yourself to not have the intellect necessary to properly perform a study and use the data given to reach a conclusion that is appropriate based on the method of your data capture.
You have failed.......badly.
Your logic does not follow.
I am a scrmb rifle user and I can tell you the scrambler beats out the AR anyday of the week. You can foolishly continue on trying to prove that your horribly run study actually proves a weapon has OP status but you will only convince the idiots on the forums of this. Anyone with a brain will understand immediately that your study is flawed. Like I said. I understand that I'm a dissenting voice. I don't expect to be accepted. The facts are the facts though. Hail AR 514.
When all else fails, use the Jesus defense... |
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Paran Tadec
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1233
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Posted - 2013.07.19 19:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:I wish to completely distance myself from Buster's comments in this thread, as they do not reflect my own views or conclusions. The purpose of this data was never to show that anything was OP or not and I don't believe any of this data alone could possibly show this. It is quite obvious that the AR is the most used weapon and gets the most kills - that does not infer it is OP. Likelihood is that many people use it because it is the most familiar weapon to them after playing other FPSs. howard sanchez wrote:Django, you've done our community a great service by attempting to provide objective statistical data for fair minded analysis. Thank you. Your efforts should be recognized, if not rewarded.
And while I agree that it is likely CCP gathers and maybe even tracks this kind of information, the fact that they choose not to publish or share it as the basis for reasonable discussion and transparency with the player base only serves to keep opinions, hyperbole and emotionally charged rhetoric as the guiding force behind player feedback. My point was only ever to provide some data. I was a little irked by a few people recently publishing lists of the weapons that kill them over a number of games because these all relied on a single player's playstyle - this data is a generalised version of those attempts and no one else has provided this information previously. Dr Allopathy wrote:You say you included the third data set, but you failed to include the 50 flux grenade kills. Link to thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=95744Edit: As I stated before, you are not recording enough matches to have enough data to record accurate stats here. 10 games out of thousands is not enough I realise my dataset is limited but I will continue to expand it over time. 30 matches and thousands of kills is a good start. The reason I don't have those 50 flux grenade kills is that none of those happened in any of the matches I happened to be watching - i.e. I can't collect data for things I don't observe. bethany valvetino wrote:nice stats...
But honest, this either the worst excuse to cover up AFK MCC camping, or you just have WAY TO MUCH time on your hands...
It's summer, might I suggest you go out side or perhaps...
Get a fking job, you tramp. Heh, yes, this does mean I spend a few hours doing nothing in MCCs but damn it's frustrating and dull. I sometimes wish I could go down and help out, especially when I can see on the map exactly where that sniper on the killstreak is hiding or when I know I could get that LLAV buzzing around murder-taxiing everyone but I resist, so that I in no way skew the results. If I was playing, you'd see a lot more pistol kills. But it is boring and I don't get to do anything else whilst doing it because I literally have to be watching the killfeed the entire game or I miss stuff - it's hard as it is when there's 5+ deaths within seconds and I have to mark them down before they disappear because only the last 3 show at once. I've been unemployed for well over a year now and have been desperately seeking work, whilst doing my own games design projects. Fortunately, I have an interview tomorrow and another 2 on Wednesday, so I won't be in this state much longer (fingers crossed). I hate feeling like a bum :(
Thanks for a competent and coherent response! |
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