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Buster Friently Rosen Association 1221	Posted - 2013.07.19 15:02:00 - [1] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Firstly, I want to apologise to anyone who played a game with me in today because I was AFK while I was doing this for 10 games - I don't do it often but at least this time I had good reason. Okay, so what I did was fairly simple: I just tallied up every cause of death for every kill by anybody on either team over the course of 10 matches. This was during a Saturday evening, Sunday afternoon and Friday either side of downtime (all GMT). These were the results and I've given some analysis below: (updated to include 3rd set of 10 matches) Assault Rifle - 1110 Sniper Rifle - 455 HMG - 360 LAV - 233 HAV - 163 SMG - 156 Mass Driver - 130 Scrambler Rifle - 124 Locus Grenade - 121 Precision Strike - 99 Shotgun - 97 Flaylock - 77 Forge Gun - 69 Swarm Launcher - 61 Installation - 49 AV Grenade - 47 Remote Explosive - 38 Dropship - 10 Scrambler Pistol - 15 Melee - 8 Plasma Cannon - 7 Laser - 5 Nova Knives - 5 Flux Grenade - 2 So with the 3rd set of data (now 30 matches total) not a lot is changing on the whole in regards to the kill rankings of the weapons. The flaylock shot up 2 places and shotguns have done better lately but the 3 top killer remain ARs, snipers and HMGs followed by murder taxis and the top sidearm is still the SMG (though the flaylock was actually pretty close in the latest session, just not overall). Didn't see any laser rifle kills today nor buggy fluxes and knives and plasma cannon kills are still very rare. I did this latest session for a couple of hours before downtime as well as a couple after in order to capture a different crowd to usual. I also left updating this until after the Mordu's challenge event was over to see if that made a difference but the stats generally followed the same patterns. I shall continue to do this occasionally and change the time/day to capture stats from various timezones, etc. and get a broader picture until it looks like I've got a pretty stable picture - hopefully it doesn't take too many more sessions because it gets really effin dull watching the killfeed for 3 - 4 hours! Fortunately, I know that CCP collect this sort of data for all matches and so are very well aware of the kinds of numbers on a much much greater scale - so with any luck they know the problem areas and are planning on sorting them all out fairly soon (TM)... - I'll add more data as and when I collect it - Thanks very much for collecting these Data. I did something similar a while back. My stats are here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678 Hail king AR, hail AR 514!
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1221	Posted - 2013.07.19 15:06:00 - [2] - Quote CCP, please comment on these stats. Several of us now have clearly shown how out of whack the AR is, and yet you continue to pursue balancing on weapons that represent 4 or 5% of the killbase. What's the point of even having these weapons when the only logical choice in the game is to spec into AR?
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1221	Posted - 2013.07.19 15:11:00 - [3] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Bad science is bad. Amount of use is not an indicator of OP'dness. Wrong. But even going with your flawed logic (BTW it's clear to anyone with brains that people migrate to what is OP, hence the term FOTM) Even that aside, the AR overusage is killing diversity in the game. There's no point to most of the other weapons. AR usage is about equal to that of the lower used 10 out of 12 light weapons/sidearms combined! That's terrible diversity, and bad for the game regardless if you want to attach the well deserved OP moniker or not.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1222	Posted - 2013.07.19 15:19:00 - [4] - Quote Honestly, I don't expect many of you to agree with the facts. It's because you're part of the AR wielding hegemony. Wasn't the argument against the flaylock (and other weapons before it) that people were speccing into it and getting cheap kills because it was EZ mode? And yet, it's kill count is way down the line. And here we have king AR, sitting on top of the pile, EZ mode as can be forever. The problem is, because we're playing AR 514, anytime any weapon actually approaches the usability of the AR, it gets nerfed to be uncompetitive. This is why the AR represents nearly as many kills as all other light weapons and sidearms combined! Call it OP, or don't. It doesn't change the facts that the devs might as well not be working on any other weapons. The AR is that dominant.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1222	Posted - 2013.07.19 15:25:00 - [5] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: Bad science is bad. Amount of use is not an indicator of OP'dness. Wrong. But even going with your flawed logic (BTW it's clear to anyone with brains that people migrate to what is OP, hence the term FOTM) Even that aside, the AR overusage is killing diversity in the game. There's no point to most of the other weapons. AR usage is about equal to that of the lower used 10 out of 12 light weapons/sidearms combined! That's terrible diversity, and bad for the game regardless if you want to attach the well deserved OP moniker or not. You're wrong. Just because something is the most used does not necessarily mean it is OP. You're making an assumption. What you need to do is focus in on players who run extremely high kills, and what gear they are using. Ex. You got into a match that is 90% new players. The AR is the most available weapon to new players, so you will see it show up more. Ex. When missiles were broken in previous builds, and dropships could fly untouched, 70-0 wasnt unheard of. It was however, far from used by everyone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias Except this is what 30 matches for him? 8 for my data, and even a nice donation of PC stats. All confirm the same thing. AR is killing diversity. Look at the scrambler rifle - 10 times as many people use the AR as scrambler rifle. lol! and the AR isn't OP, nope. Here, I can do the wikipedia link too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial Bottom line. Don't call it OP if you can't stomach the truth, but the numbers don't lie. The weapon is a huge problem for diversity in the game, and this diversity issue needs to be addressed ASAP.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1222	Posted - 2013.07.19 15:39:00 - [6] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: Bad science is bad. Amount of use is not an indicator of OP'dness. Wrong. But even going with your flawed logic (BTW it's clear to anyone with brains that people migrate to what is OP, hence the term FOTM) Even that aside, the AR overusage is killing diversity in the game. There's no point to most of the other weapons. AR usage is about equal to that of the lower used 10 out of 12 light weapons/sidearms combined! That's terrible diversity, and bad for the game regardless if you want to attach the well deserved OP moniker or not. You're wrong. Just because something is the most used does not necessarily mean it is OP. You're making an assumption. What you need to do is focus in on players who run extremely high kills, and what gear they are using. Ex. You got into a match that is 90% new players. The AR is the most available weapon to new players, so you will see it show up more. Ex. When missiles were broken in previous builds, and dropships could fly untouched, 70-0 wasnt unheard of. It was however, far from used by everyone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias Except this is what 30 matches for him? 8 for my data, and even a nice donation of PC stats. All confirm the same thing. AR is killing diversity. Look at the scrambler rifle - 10 times as many people use the AR as scrambler rifle. lol! and the AR isn't OP, nope. Here, I can do the wikipedia link too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial Bottom line. Don't call it OP if you can't stomach the truth, but the numbers don't lie. The weapon is a huge problem for diversity in the game, and this diversity issue needs to be addressed ASAP. Ah, 12 yr old attempts science, cute. Firstly, all this data shows is the probability that you will encounter a certain weapon during a match. Thats it. You have no definition for OP other than "it is used frequently" without exploring the other possible reasons for why an AR would be most used ( again, it could be new players are most comfortable with it due to the name, or not realising the SCR is a type of AR for a different race) Again, bad science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy lol. keep defending your AR OP EZ mode please. Listen. The stats don't lie. The AR is a problem, it's used 10 times more than a supposedly similar weapon, the SR. All this data shows is that the AR is dominating the game, and all that time the devs spend on other weapons is wasted. That sounds like a problem to me, but just in case you need more detail: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678 Also, he definitely has enough data here to reach statistical significance. Toss out OP, and you still have a huge problem. Accept the truth, and it's the biggest weapon related problem in the game. Again though, I know I'm a dissenting voice because I'm not one of the 75% relying on the crutch of the AR.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1222	Posted - 2013.07.19 15:43:00 - [7] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Maximus Stryker wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Honestly, I don't expect many of you to agree with the facts. It's because you're part of the AR wielding hegemony. Wasn't the argument against the flaylock (and other weapons before it) that people were speccing into it and getting cheap kills because it was EZ mode? And yet, it's kill count is way down the line. And here we have king AR, sitting on top of the pile, EZ mode as can be forever. The problem is, because we're playing AR 514, anytime any weapon actually approaches the usability of the AR, it gets nerfed to be uncompetitive. This is why the AR represents nearly as many kills as all other light weapons and sidearms combined! Call it OP, or don't. It doesn't change the facts that the devs might as well not be working on any other weapons. The AR is that dominant. Example: 130 people play and are studies: 100 people use the AR and they average 9 kills and 4 deaths 10 people use the Flaylock and average 15 kills and 2 deaths 10 people use the Mass driver and average 12 kills and 3 deaths 10 people use the Scrambler rifle and average 7 kills and 3 deaths the AR had 900 kills the FLhad 150 kills the MD had 120 kills the SR had 70 kills the AR had nearly 3 times the kill count Conclusion, the AR is OP and a dominant weapon 3x kills, but 10x more users for the idiots who cant see it for themselves. Keep in mind what the OP has shown is kills, not usage. So, let's take your assumption (mind you that's what it is, not actual data like the OP has presented) and we have 3 possible scenarios based on the OPs data (1100ish AR kills, by far the most) A) The vast majority (maybe like 75%) of the playerbase uses the AR, but the kill with it less often than other players kill with other weapons. B) Something like 50% use it and kill at an average rate compared to other weapons. C) Less than 50% use it, but kill with greater frequency than other players. Any of these 3 scenarios is bad for diversity and bad for the game. That's the facts.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1222	Posted - 2013.07.19 15:46:00 - [8] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Buster Friently wrote: lol. keep defending your AR OP EZ mode please. Listen. The stats don't lie. The AR is a problem, it's used 10 times more than a supposedly similar weapon, the SR. All this data shows is that the AR is dominating the game, and all that time the devs spend on other weapons is wasted. That sounds like a problem to me, but just in case you need more detail: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678 Also, he definitely has enough data here to reach statistical significance. Toss out OP, and you still have a huge problem. Accept the truth, and it's the biggest weapon related problem in the game. Again though, I know I'm a dissenting voice because I'm not one of the 75% relying on the crutch of the AR. I dont have a single SP spent into AR, derpmoar. All you can do with this data is show a probability for the chance that you will encounter a certain weapon, thats it. Its a poorly designed study for showing OP'dness. If you want to show that you need to go by the number of kills per weapon DIVIDED by the number of people using it. See above post. hail AR 514. Hail king AR. That's what these data show.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1222	Posted - 2013.07.19 15:49:00 - [9] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: Maximus Stryker wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Honestly, I don't expect many of you to agree with the facts. It's because you're part of the AR wielding hegemony. Wasn't the argument against the flaylock (and other weapons before it) that people were speccing into it and getting cheap kills because it was EZ mode? And yet, it's kill count is way down the line. And here we have king AR, sitting on top of the pile, EZ mode as can be forever. The problem is, because we're playing AR 514, anytime any weapon actually approaches the usability of the AR, it gets nerfed to be uncompetitive. This is why the AR represents nearly as many kills as all other light weapons and sidearms combined! Call it OP, or don't. It doesn't change the facts that the devs might as well not be working on any other weapons. The AR is that dominant. Example: 130 people play and are studies: 100 people use the AR and they average 9 kills and 4 deaths 10 people use the Flaylock and average 15 kills and 2 deaths 10 people use the Mass driver and average 12 kills and 3 deaths 10 people use the Scrambler rifle and average 7 kills and 3 deaths the AR had 900 kills the FLhad 150 kills the MD had 120 kills the SR had 70 kills the AR had nearly 3 times the kill count Conclusion, the AR is OP and a dominant weapon 3x kills, but 10x more users for the idiots who cant see it for themselves. Keep in mind what the OP has shown is kills, not usage. So, you admit he has an incomplete data set, which is not reliable enough to use to draw conclusions from. Thank you. Pick a scenario.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1222	Posted - 2013.07.19 15:53:00 - [10] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Paran Tadec wrote: Buster Friently wrote: lol. keep defending your AR OP EZ mode please. Listen. The stats don't lie. The AR is a problem, it's used 10 times more than a supposedly similar weapon, the SR. All this data shows is that the AR is dominating the game, and all that time the devs spend on other weapons is wasted. That sounds like a problem to me, but just in case you need more detail: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678 Also, he definitely has enough data here to reach statistical significance. Toss out OP, and you still have a huge problem. Accept the truth, and it's the biggest weapon related problem in the game. Again though, I know I'm a dissenting voice because I'm not one of the 75% relying on the crutch of the AR. I dont have a single SP spent into AR, derpmoar. All you can do with this data is show a probability for the chance that you will encounter a certain weapon, thats it. Its a poorly designed study for showing OP'dness. If you want to show that you need to go by the number of kills per weapon DIVIDED by the number of people using it. See above post. hail AR 514. Hail king AR. That's what these data show. When the data doesnt fit your original hypothesis (OP'dness"), change it! Bad science is bad. That's funny. You see, it's people like the OP and myself that are presenting the objective facts. Incidentally, your hypothetical was scenario A, but I like how you can't bring yourself to admit it, or to understand that those three scenarios are the only possible conclusions from the data, and they're all bad. All you've done is blow hot air. I stand by my numbers. I stand by his. Hail AR 514. Go AR or go home.

Buster Friently Rosen Association 1222	Posted - 2013.07.19 15:58:00 - [11] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: When the data doesnt fit your original hypothesis (OP'dness"), change it! Bad science is bad. LOL, facts. You started with assumptions and bias and set out to "prove" it. That is not science, and certainly not statistics. Fact: The AR kills more than any other weapon. It's equivalent, or nearly so, the the bottom 10 or 12 light/sidearm weapons combined. Possible Conclusions: A) The vast majority (maybe like 75%) of the playerbase uses the AR, but the kill with it less often than other players kill with other weapons. B) Something like 50% use it and kill at an average rate compared to other weapons. C) Less than 50% use it, but kill with greater frequency than other players.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1222	Posted - 2013.07.19 16:03:00 - [12] - Quote Maximus Stryker wrote: please understand that you have show how many kills with each weapons. please understand what you HAVE NOT shown is how many people were running those weapons. please understand that I was simply trying to show you why your claim that the AR has more kills than all other weapons in the game is due to the fact that is used more frequently, vastly more frequently. please understand that I (we?) are arguing that other weapons in the game are deemed OP because people are able to generate extremely high kill to death ratios when using those weapons and they create an imbalance. Please understand, the biggest imbalance in the game is AR overusage.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1223	Posted - 2013.07.19 16:43:00 - [13] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Buster just stop. You have proven yourself to not have the intellect necessary to properly perform a study and use the data given to reach a conclusion that is appropriate based on the method of your data capture. You have failed.......badly. Your logic does not follow. I am a scrmb rifle user and I can tell you the scrambler beats out the AR anyday of the week. You can foolishly continue on trying to prove that your horribly run study actually proves a weapon has OP status but you will only convince the idiots on the forums of this. Anyone with a brain will understand immediately that your study is flawed. Like I said. I understand that I'm a dissenting voice. I don't expect to be accepted. The facts are the facts though. Hail AR 514.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1286	Posted - 2013.07.25 21:37:00 - [14] - Quote Dust 514, all AR, all the time.

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