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Zero Notion
Red Star Jr.
EoN.
43
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Posted - 2013.07.12 17:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Red line is an 'okay' mechanic in theory but dying in an attempt to reach someone that is demolishing your team is kind of absurd; so, the campers should suffer the same consequences. If they're camping behind red line, they should receive a timer that activates once they've spent X amount of time in the 'non-combat zone', which will kill them. Stepping out and instantly in, will cause diminishing returns on the timer quickly. I don't mind a team being given a moment to recuperate after being slaughtered in field and are forced to retreat back. However, an even better option would simply to remodel the maps to give each force a higher starting ground that the enemy has extreme difficulty reaching physically and with weaponry.
It should be possible for both forces to attack each other in this instance but the defensive team should have the obvious terrain advantage, it might not stop camping entirely but it would help. If the team becomes 'trapped' by the opposing force, then I would be inclined to say that they simply did not organize themselves well as a fighting force unless they were completely outmatched.
Of course, this is the more obvious difficult and complex solution as there would be many factors to consider.
Still. The red line mechanic is silly, simply because I'm being killed for trying to kill the guy that killed me, just because of some imaginary non-combat zone that is clearly still a combat zone since the rail tank is exploding my team or the sniper is tucked away in his spider hole. It's clearly a terrain issue. |
Zero Notion
Red Star Jr.
EoN.
46
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 18:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Grimmiers wrote:The redline should only be around the mcc and the mcc should be somewhat mobile in order to shift spawn locations, but not be able to fly right over the installation. Light null cannons should also be deployable like in the carbon build and require the use of a generator. It would make for a more interesting moba/rts type of gameplay.
I like that. I would also suggest that you might be able to spend isk on the field in order to purchase field installations from orbiting crews in order to produce a new spawn location or turret - limited use and expensive, it should be a last ditch resort.
You wouldn't need the MCC to move around, just a dropship. You could call an NPC dropship in that will cycle the map until destroyed but one you could spawn in. One per character per match and three total per match.
A mobile command unit that is purely defensive that players can purchase like tanks that can be fitted with uplink modules and potential installation creation modules might even help.
Either way, the redline should go away completely. The entire map should be able to be utilized. The mercs simply need tools in order to utilize the terrain properly. |
Zero Notion
Red Star Jr.
EoN.
46
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 18:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
I thought about that too; a surrender option that a player can activate after X amount of clone losses (and only clone losses, you shouldn't just be able to give up). It might cause an dialogue box to appear, asking the player whether they agree that surrender has become necessary. 9 would have to agree in a battle of sixteen. If the box is allowed to idle, then the answer would default to the option of agreeing to surrender.
ISK loss but not SP loss.
Still. That seems like a band aid and cheapens the game, imho. |
Zero Notion
Red Star Jr.
EoN.
46
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 18:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Soldiersaint wrote:Banning Hammer wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:lolno
Im not letting noskillswarms get close to me, it why im already in the hills
Give me proto vehicles then maybe just maybe You seen how big the maps are ? you have plenty of room to run away if you need to. I mean.. come on.. the maps are huge. A real soldier or tanker will not let the enemy get close to them.....they will use all advantages ok....ALL OF THEM......stop crying this is war.
That's unrealistic mechanically but I like your enthusiasm. |
Zero Notion
Red Star Jr.
EoN.
48
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 19:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Melchiah ARANeAE wrote:What you guys need to remember is that this game is not COD or battlefield. Every kill puts a dent in someone's wallet. If the redline is removed, people will stop spawning and/or go afk because they don't want to lose a lot of ISK from spawn campers. And sure, ending the game if no one spawns for 5 minutes might fix that. But would anyone want to stand around for 5 minutes waiting for the game to end be any fun at all? Being redlined is a pain as it is. It's be even worse if the redline was completely removed.
Also, If you find yourself dying at the hands of a redline sniper, snipe him back. Rail tank in their redzone? Whip out a forge gun. A militia forge gun fit costs 3,000 ISK. Hardly Expensive.
The redline makes the game more tactical. Again, its not a happy go lucky run and gun game like COD. This is a tactical game. Think of a way around your problems. Don't just moan about your problems and hope someone at CCP sympathises.
Sure, that makes sense in theory, but if those in the red line potentially out class the opposing team, then you are also losing isk and SP by losing the match and not receiving potential WP's because you were unable to reach the target - going into the red line kills you, so you too are also losing ISK by dying but you'r'e being killed by a mechanic you have no control over. It's like when you're faced with burning alive in a building or jumping out a 10 story window, hoping you might survive. Sort of. Except the fire is the tank and the red line is the concrete.
I agree that spawn camping can be costly but by that point, every player should be minimizing their loss by suiting into a cheaper suit if worse comes to worse. The red line is punishing players who are on the opposite side of it when an opposing force is leveraging it in their favor. For many, it's a lose/lose situation. So, instead we should focus on giving players tools and terrain that they can use to their advantage, with a single spawn point for each team on every map for each appropriate game that allows them a more than reasonable chance at avoiding a complete camp.
What are your options?
1) You can attempt to tactically take out the target without going into the red line but this can be problematic if they're stacking rep users on a tank or snipers who are simply respawning if you kill them.
2) You quit the match. You lose ISK and SP.
3) You AFK the match instead of dying. You miss out on the fun of playing the game but gain your SP and ISK.
Either way, the red line is more psychologically damaging than anything else. When it's mechanically leveraged to take out other players, it makes the game less fun and less engaging. It's not being used only when a team has been pushed back or are being spawn camped, it's being used as a weapon. |
Zero Notion
Red Star Jr.
EoN.
49
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 20:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Quote:You're making it out as if the people that have dominated and forced the opposition to a small position of the map are being penalised in some way. They've pretty much sealed the win. Its just there to make sure people being dominated don't completely lose heart and quit the match.
This has happened. It's rare that it goes to this extent but it does happen, in the sense that an objective needed to win is effectively and successfully covered by opposing fire (rail guns, usually).
Quote:lso, you keep sniping the snipers and they will change their fit.
No tank can face up to 3 or 4 forge gunners no matter how many reppers it has.
If the forge gunners can reach the tank without being killed by the red zone.
Quote:And if the 'better' team are somehow being redlined, they should be able find a way around and flank the opposition. Maybe send a lone scout around the edge of the map with a drop uplink or to hack an objective at the other end of the field. Draw the attention away from the redline. If they cant do that they obviously aren't the better team.
What I mean is that the 'better' team are the ones employing the heavy weaponry from behind the redline.
I feel like you're missing the point entirely. The red line is being used in some matches to ensure there are troops that are nearly unreachable or completely unreachable. This isn't like snipers on the roof of a building placed there by dropships; I could get to that same building, too, by the same method or employing different tactics. Now, put that building in the red line. Attempting to go reach them now becomes a race against death and not from the snipers. Do you see the difference?
There are some spots where a tank can rail snipe effectively and destructively enough that they can cost the battle by covering enough ground that those attempting to capture points are going to die or have their chances unreasonably restricted. It is true that snipers are more easily taken care of.
The point remains is that the team that employs the use of a red line in order to score a victory is ultimately damaging because there are instances where you cannot reach the tank. This problem might be unique with rail gun snipers rather than mercenary snipers.
I hope by now you can see the difference I.e; the tank can shoot you from behind a literal kill zone that you cannot enter without dying in 18? 20? seconds, whereas you are not granted a similar protection without entering into your own red zone. That is using the red line itself as a weapon. It diminishes the game. Sure, it's a valid tactic by sake of existing but it's a lazy mechanic being utilized in a way that was, in my guess, unintended and unforeseen with the introduction of these new tactics.
No 'safe' zone should kill an opposing team. |
Zero Notion
Red Star Jr.
EoN.
49
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 21:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Crash Monster wrote:gandalgrey wrote:Snipers are ment 5o hide in the hills or what is the point in a long range gun and we r ment to be hidden otherwise we would be found to easily People looking to remove the redline generally don't like snipers... particularly redline snipers.
redline snipers just skurred that peeps gonna find out they got no skrillz. Am I doing it right? I forgot how to troll. |
Zero Notion
Red Star Jr.
EoN.
49
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 21:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
gandalgrey wrote:Snipers are ment 5o hide in the hills or what is the point in a long range gun and we r ment to be hidden otherwise we would be found to easily
There's your problem; you don't hide behind hills. Hills don't have enough coverage. |
Zero Notion
Red Star Jr.
EoN.
50
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 22:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
It's rare to find a good sniper. Anyone can learn to shoot and kill mercs to varying degrees of success with a sniper rifle but it's the snipers that move after every kill or two, or who know which mercs to take down and when to take down, that can change the battle. It's kind of silly whenever the guy is posted up in the same spot the entire time. |
Zero Notion
Red Star Jr.
EoN.
51
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 23:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
gandalgrey wrote:Zero Notion wrote:It's rare to find a good sniper. Anyone can learn to shoot and kill mercs to varying degrees of success with a sniper rifle but it's the snipers that move after every kill or two, or who know which mercs to take down and when to take down, that can change the battle. It's kind of silly whenever the guy is posted up in the same spot the entire time. Also pre warning squads of incoming people or vehicles telling which way to run, I dont give a **** bout my kdr I just love the satisfaction of headshotting a person across the map which dispite what some people say its bloody difficult at times especially if its a scout.
Hah. I actually ran into a newb last night during a match, his first real day of playing, and that's exactly what he was doing. He was getting wrecked so he decided to try out sniping, which turned into him becoming recon for the squad as he moved around the map watching movement. Worked out pretty well. |
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