DUST Search - HMG vs. AR

Damus Trifarn wrote:

These are my thoughts on what should be done to the HMG to make it a more viable option in Dust 514. I'm a proficient HMG user with a good track record using it. However I notice some problems with the weapon, and here is what I reccomend to fix some problems, particularly accuracy, range, and damage. To show the great imbalances in range between the two weapons I've pulled up some real world weapon ranges.

The glorious realm of Wikipedia gave me these stats for these real world weapons:

1. The M134 Minigun (I know it's an HMG, but realistically heavies are holding miniguns) has an effective range of 1000m (other sources are showing me that its even greater, even up to 1500m)

2. The M60 Machine Gun (just in case some don't think it's a minigun) has an effective range of 1,100m

3. The FAMAS AR has an effective range of 450m, the AK47 has an effective range of 350m, and the M16 550m or 800m

Again, this is Wikipedia, so anyone feel free to correct my numbers.

Someone please explain to me why both the HMG and Minigun have much greater ranges than ARs and yet in Dust ARs are outclassing HMGs in range? With the 1.2 range has been increased and there's absolute range and such, but it's not effective range, and the AR still outclasses the HMG in range because the AR still does more damage at greater ranges than the HMG. This range difference should be fixed (Though I'm suggesting we use the above numbers for these weapons. That would get messy), because while the AR should do more damage it should by no means have a range advantage over the HMG. I believe that changing the ranges could fix some problems with the HMG and make it a more viable option, or at least have an advantage over the AR.

And now to the more volatile topic, the damage:

I'm using the Boundless Heavy Machine Gun vs. Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle
Duvolle: 34.1 x 60 = 2046 dmg per clip
Boundless: 18.4(?) x 425 = 7480 dmg per clip
Not much need to change that, right? HMG far outclasses the AR in damage, right? Well, considering that the AR is way more accurate, combined with the fact that the range is greater and that HMG bullets have difficulty getting down shields destroy any advantage of dmg per clip, not to mention overheating on part of the HMG. How to even the odds? Well, I do not propose a damage buff to the HMG over an extra 5 points, and even then I'm skeptical about that. I'd settle for evening out damage to shields and armor, but that goes against the type of ammunition used, so some may find problems with that. So I'm thinking that the AR could lose some accuracy. Honestly, if I want a laser beam I'll invest in the Laser Rifle, not the Assault Rifle. Also, make the HMG more accurate so that the gun can actually use 425 bullets (minus overheating limit) per clip effectively.

My reasoning behind these recommendations are that the HMG is outclassed by the Assault rifle in places where it should flourish, damage and range. Before we freak out and say that I want the HMG to be the new AR, hear me out.

HMG's are traditionally used as guns to mow down enemies with brute force. Currently the HMG has no brute force. If we can give the HMG damage, accuracy, and range, here's what happens: say a soldier with an AR tries to find an objective, then sees a Heavy with a HMG in front of him. What currently happens: either bunny hops or a quick kill with an absurd amount of damage dished out compared to the HMG because the HMG can't aim or have meaningful damage to save its life. What should happen: AR guy finds cover and tactically takes the Heavy down because a direct assault would be suicide due to the HMG's accuracy and damage. 9 times out of 10 a Heavy with an HMG should win 1v1 encounters unless in close quarters. The HMG's turning speed is a good thing. The weapon should be a trade of speed and mobility for power and accuracy. Currently, its a trade of speed and mobility for a gun with poor accuracy, poor damage, and no advantages that an AR doesn't already have. Just my thoughts on the weapon, and would love to hear feedback.

Pages: 1 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 0	Posted - 2013.07.09 19:14:00 - [1] - Quote These are my thoughts on what should be done to the HMG to make it a more viable option in Dust 514. I'm a proficient HMG user with a good track record using it. However I notice some problems with the weapon, and here is what I reccomend to fix some problems, particularly accuracy, range, and damage. To show the great imbalances in range between the two weapons I've pulled up some real world weapon ranges. The glorious realm of Wikipedia gave me these stats for these real world weapons: 1. The M134 Minigun (I know it's an HMG, but realistically heavies are holding miniguns) has an effective range of 1000m (other sources are showing me that its even greater, even up to 1500m) 2. The M60 Machine Gun (just in case some don't think it's a minigun) has an effective range of 1,100m 3. The FAMAS AR has an effective range of 450m, the AK47 has an effective range of 350m, and the M16 550m or 800m Again, this is Wikipedia, so anyone feel free to correct my numbers. Someone please explain to me why both the HMG and Minigun have much greater ranges than ARs and yet in Dust ARs are outclassing HMGs in range? With the 1.2 range has been increased and there's absolute range and such, but it's not effective range, and the AR still outclasses the HMG in range because the AR still does more damage at greater ranges than the HMG. This range difference should be fixed (Though I'm suggesting we use the above numbers for these weapons. That would get messy), because while the AR should do more damage it should by no means have a range advantage over the HMG. I believe that changing the ranges could fix some problems with the HMG and make it a more viable option, or at least have an advantage over the AR. And now to the more volatile topic, the damage: I'm using the Boundless Heavy Machine Gun vs. Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Duvolle: 34.1 x 60 = 2046 dmg per clip Boundless: 18.4(?) x 425 = 7480 dmg per clip Not much need to change that, right? HMG far outclasses the AR in damage, right? Well, considering that the AR is way more accurate, combined with the fact that the range is greater and that HMG bullets have difficulty getting down shields destroy any advantage of dmg per clip, not to mention overheating on part of the HMG. How to even the odds? Well, I do not propose a damage buff to the HMG over an extra 5 points, and even then I'm skeptical about that. I'd settle for evening out damage to shields and armor, but that goes against the type of ammunition used, so some may find problems with that. So I'm thinking that the AR could lose some accuracy. Honestly, if I want a laser beam I'll invest in the Laser Rifle, not the Assault Rifle. Also, make the HMG more accurate so that the gun can actually use 425 bullets (minus overheating limit) per clip effectively. My reasoning behind these recommendations are that the HMG is outclassed by the Assault rifle in places where it should flourish, damage and range. Before we freak out and say that I want the HMG to be the new AR, hear me out. HMG's are traditionally used as guns to mow down enemies with brute force. Currently the HMG has no brute force. If we can give the HMG damage, accuracy, and range, here's what happens: say a soldier with an AR tries to find an objective, then sees a Heavy with a HMG in front of him. What currently happens: either bunny hops or a quick kill with an absurd amount of damage dished out compared to the HMG because the HMG can't aim or have meaningful damage to save its life. What should happen: AR guy finds cover and tactically takes the Heavy down because a direct assault would be suicide due to the HMG's accuracy and damage. 9 times out of 10 a Heavy with an HMG should win 1v1 encounters unless in close quarters. The HMG's turning speed is a good thing. The weapon should be a trade of speed and mobility for power and accuracy. Currently, its a trade of speed and mobility for a gun with poor accuracy, poor damage, and no advantages that an AR doesn't already have. Just my thoughts on the weapon, and would love to hear feedback.
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 157	Posted - 2013.07.09 19:20:00 - [2] - Quote i've been playing heavy since launch, and i quite like the assault hmg. but i've just skilled into my logi suit, and the exile assault rifle is tougher by far than my advanced (or proto) hmg. the only benefit in being a heavy is the amount of damage you can take. the amount of damage you can deal out is mediocre at best.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 544	Posted - 2013.07.09 19:25:00 - [3] - Quote Damus Trifarn wrote: These are my thoughts on what should be done to the HMG to make it a more viable option in Dust 514. I'm a proficient HMG user with a good track record using it. However I notice some problems with the weapon, and here is what I reccomend to fix some problems, particularly accuracy, range, and damage. To show the great imbalances in range between the two weapons I've pulled up some real world weapon ranges. The glorious realm of Wikipedia gave me these stats for these real world weapons: 1. The M134 Minigun (I know it's an HMG, but realistically heavies are holding miniguns) has an effective range of 1000m (other sources are showing me that its even greater, even up to 1500m) 2. The M60 Machine Gun (just in case some don't think it's a minigun) has an effective range of 1,100m 3. The FAMAS AR has an effective range of 450m, the AK47 has an effective range of 350m, and the M16 550m or 800m Again, this is Wikipedia, so anyone feel free to correct my numbers. Someone please explain to me why both the HMG and Minigun have much greater ranges than ARs and yet in Dust ARs are outclassing HMGs in range? With the 1.2 range has been increased and there's absolute range and such, but it's not effective range, and the AR still outclasses the HMG in range because the AR still does more damage at greater ranges than the HMG. This range difference should be fixed (Though I'm suggesting we use the above numbers for these weapons. That would get messy), because while the AR should do more damage it should by no means have a range advantage over the HMG. I believe that changing the ranges could fix some problems with the HMG and make it a more viable option, or at least have an advantage over the AR. And now to the more volatile topic, the damage: I'm using the Boundless Heavy Machine Gun vs. Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Duvolle: 34.1 x 60 = 2046 dmg per clip Boundless: 18.4(?) x 425 = 7480 dmg per clip Not much need to change that, right? HMG far outclasses the AR in damage, right? Well, considering that the AR is way more accurate, combined with the fact that the range is greater and that HMG bullets have difficulty getting down shields destroy any advantage of dmg per clip, not to mention overheating on part of the HMG. How to even the odds? Well, I do not propose a damage buff to the HMG over an extra 5 points, and even then I'm skeptical about that. I'd settle for evening out damage to shields and armor, but that goes against the type of ammunition used, so some may find problems with that. So I'm thinking that the AR could lose some accuracy. Honestly, if I want a laser beam I'll invest in the Laser Rifle, not the Assault Rifle. Also, make the HMG more accurate so that the gun can actually use 425 bullets (minus overheating limit) per clip effectively. My reasoning behind these recommendations are that the HMG is outclassed by the Assault rifle in places where it should flourish, damage and range. Before we freak out and say that I want the HMG to be the new AR, hear me out. HMG's are traditionally used as guns to mow down enemies with brute force. Currently the HMG has no brute force. If we can give the HMG damage, accuracy, and range, here's what happens: say a soldier with an AR tries to find an objective, then sees a Heavy with a HMG in front of him. What currently happens: either bunny hops or a quick kill with an absurd amount of damage dished out compared to the HMG because the HMG can't aim or have meaningful damage to save its life. What should happen: AR guy finds cover and tactically takes the Heavy down because a direct assault would be suicide due to the HMG's accuracy and damage. 9 times out of 10 a Heavy with an HMG should win 1v1 encounters unless in close quarters. The HMG's turning speed is a good thing. The weapon should be a trade of speed and mobility for power and accuracy. Currently, its a trade of speed and mobility for a gun with poor accuracy, poor damage, and no advantages that an AR doesn't already have. Just my thoughts on the weapon, and would love to hear feedback. HMG just needs 100/100 damage and a small dispersion buff, also some buffs to plates would make it easier for you to aim. EDIT: About those weapons at the top, although they have really long range they have extremely high recoil, so unless you want your HMG to be shooting at the sky every 5 shots I suggest the range is not changed.
ALPHA DECRIPTER M.E.R.C. Conventional Forces D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 10	Posted - 2013.07.09 19:33:00 - [4] - Quote CCP could have gone with the idea that it's a suppressive weapon and not a mob killer. The assault rifle on the other hand is actually designed to kill anything you point at. But hey I'm not with CCP so I can't say for sure. I personally would say to give heavy armor increased resistance to AR fire but that's just me.
Nitrobeacon Freek Coalition 8	Posted - 2013.07.09 19:39:00 - [5] - Quote Let me get this right, you are asking for increased range but decreased efficacy at close quarters combat, then it needs a dot as it's crosshair. Everyone can agree that when you place the circle at someone's head, the enemy is dead, even if it's another fellow heavy.
nukel head Knights of No Republic 45	Posted - 2013.07.09 19:49:00 - [6] - Quote Damus Trifarn wrote: These are my thoughts on what should be done to the HMG to make it a more viable option in Dust 514. I'm a proficient HMG user with a good track record using it. However I notice some problems with the weapon, and here is what I reccomend to fix some problems, particularly accuracy, range, and damage. To show the great imbalances in range between the two weapons I've pulled up some real world weapon ranges. The glorious realm of Wikipedia gave me these stats for these real world weapons: 1. The M134 Minigun (I know it's an HMG, but realistically heavies are holding miniguns) has an effective range of 1000m (other sources are showing me that its even greater, even up to 1500m) 2. The M60 Machine Gun (just in case some don't think it's a minigun) has an effective range of 1,100m 3. The FAMAS AR has an effective range of 450m, the AK47 has an effective range of 350m, and the M16 550m or 800m Again, this is Wikipedia, so anyone feel free to correct my numbers. Someone please explain to me why both the HMG and Minigun have much greater ranges than ARs and yet in Dust ARs are outclassing HMGs in range? With the 1.2 range has been increased and there's absolute range and such, but it's not effective range, and the AR still outclasses the HMG in range because the AR still does more damage at greater ranges than the HMG. This range difference should be fixed (Though I'm suggesting we use the above numbers for these weapons. That would get messy), because while the AR should do more damage it should by no means have a range advantage over the HMG. I believe that changing the ranges could fix some problems with the HMG and make it a more viable option, or at least have an advantage over the AR. And now to the more volatile topic, the damage: I'm using the Boundless Heavy Machine Gun vs. Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle Duvolle: 37.4 x 60 = 2244 dmg per clip Boundless: 19.8 x 425 = 8415 dmg per clip Not much need to change that, right? HMG far outclasses the AR in damage, right? Well, considering that the AR is way more accurate, combined with the fact that the range is greater and that HMG bullets have difficulty getting down shields destroy any advantage of dmg per clip, not to mention overheating on part of the HMG. How to even the odds? Well, I do not propose a damage buff to the HMG over an extra 5 points, and even then I'm skeptical about that. I'd settle for evening out damage to shields and armor, but that goes against the type of ammunition used, so some may find problems with that. So I'm thinking that the AR could lose some accuracy. Honestly, if I want a laser beam I'll invest in the Laser Rifle, not the Assault Rifle. Also, make the HMG more accurate so that the gun can actually use 425 bullets (minus overheating limit) per clip effectively. My reasoning behind these recommendations are that the HMG is outclassed by the Assault rifle in places where it should flourish, damage and range. Before we freak out and say that I want the HMG to be the new AR, hear me out. HMG's are traditionally used as guns to mow down enemies with brute force. Currently the HMG has no brute force. If we can give the HMG damage, accuracy, and range, here's what happens: say a soldier with an AR tries to find an objective, then sees a Heavy with a HMG in front of him. What currently happens: either bunny hops or a quick kill with an absurd amount of damage dished out compared to the HMG because the HMG can't aim or have meaningful damage to save its life. What should happen: AR guy finds cover and tactically takes the Heavy down because a direct assault would be suicide due to the HMG's accuracy and damage. 9 times out of 10 a Heavy with an HMG should win 1v1 encounters unless in close quarters. The HMG's turning speed is a good thing. The weapon should be a trade of speed and mobility for power and accuracy. Currently, its a trade of speed and mobility for a gun with poor accuracy, poor damage, and no advantages that an AR doesn't already have. Just my thoughts on the weapon, and would love to hear feedback. A better idea is just to remove the duvolle tactical assault rifle. Edit: Wait, what? I just read the rest of the post...the HMG is NOT supposed to flourish at range. It is supposed to shred at close range and taper off quickly at range. That's why it uses a shotgun reticule.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 1	Posted - 2013.07.09 19:59:00 - [7] - Quote My reason for saying that the HMG is not effective at close quarters is that it is very easy for an enemy to evade and avoid the HMG due to slow turning speed. I'm not saying that we should make the HMG less effective at close quarters, but rather let its tradeoffs already set in the game give it that limitation. After all, these weapons need tradeoffs. On the other hand, I don't condone HMG's shooting across the map with pinpoint accuracy, but I do believe that the current range should be improved so that the HMG can compete with Assault Rifles when it comes to range. As for the idea of a suppression gun, I believe that in order to be a suppression weapon the gun must be lethal. The whole point of suppression is to make the enemy think "If i move from this spot I will either be seriously damaged or killed", and the HMG can't do that. People don't worry about being mowed down by a HMG if they go into open ground because the HMG can't do anything due to dispersion and range. I do like the idea of increased armor also, or more health. As it stands the Heavy suit does seem rather fragile. The only problem is figuring out how much health to add or how much resistance should be put in. The Heavy suit is very difficult to alter; too little, and it's weak and not worth the SP and ISK. Alter too much, and its unstoppable.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 547	Posted - 2013.07.09 20:06:00 - [8] - Quote Damus Trifarn wrote: My reason for saying that the HMG is not effective at close quarters is that it is very easy for an enemy to evade and avoid the HMG due to slow turning speed. I'm not saying that we should make the HMG less effective at close quarters, but rather let its tradeoffs already set in the game give it that limitation. After all, these weapons need tradeoffs. On the other hand, I don't condone HMG's shooting across the map with pinpoint accuracy, but I do believe that the current range should be improved so that the HMG can compete with Assault Rifles when it comes to range. As for the idea of a suppression gun, I believe that in order to be a suppression weapon the gun must be lethal. The whole point of suppression is to make the enemy think "If i move from this spot I will either be seriously damaged or killed", and the HMG can't do that. People don't worry about being mowed down by a HMG if they go into open ground because the HMG can't do anything due to dispersion and range. I do like the idea of increased armor also, or more health. As it stands the Heavy suit does seem rather fragile. The only problem is figuring out how much health to add or how much resistance should be put in. The Heavy suit is very difficult to alter; too little, and it's weak and not worth the SP and ISK. Alter too much, and its unstoppable. They should definately not compete with AR in range unless they recoil and dispersion of the HMG is increased. The turning speed is a penalty that will be fixed, hopefully, when armor tanking is fixed. If ADS movement speeds are nerfed then the HMG will reign supreme because people won't be able to dodge all your bullets.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 1	Posted - 2013.07.09 20:11:00 - [9] - Quote While I do see the argument for the HMG being a good CQC weapon, it's just not feasible for the game. The Heavy suit turns too slowly and is too big a target to be effective at close range. The only time I've ever been able to get off a lot of kills in close range is when the enemy stands in front of me with nowhere to go or when I happen to be behind them. Otherwise they manage to evade the slow turning speed. As it stands, CQC is not a forte of Dust, and I believe that the HMG should instead have greater range. Also, there are already guns specialized in CQC, like SMGs and shotguns. I don't see the need for another CQC weapon, especially one with such a high SP and ISK requirement.
Nitrobeacon Freek Coalition 8	Posted - 2013.07.09 20:11:00 - [10] - Quote Are you a gallente? you seem to want everyone at your speed.. Edit: To guy above you :)

Eno Raef KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 23	Posted - 2013.07.09 20:14:00 - [11] - Quote I don't believe the HMG should be designed as a CQC weapon. If the heavy could move faster, it possibly could. When I used the HMG in Chromosome, I preferred it as a suppressive weapon over medium range than as a CQC. Usually the shotgun did the deed on my HMG in CQC. The SMG was also effective against my slow heavy suit. I could survive sniper fire so I enjoyed Chromsome's Manus Peaks Alpha letter. I could suppress infantry and LAVs while trying to avoid snipers and it worked effectively. Defending this area is what made me enjoy Manus Peaks more than any other map. I however disliked CQC maps with medium and light suits being so much faster, they seemed to have the advantage with their superior speed. Without the range, I found the heavy with HMG much less effective at suppression and so I'm not specced into heavy anymore.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 561	Posted - 2013.07.09 20:18:00 - [12] - Quote Nitrobeacon wrote: Are you a gallente? you seem to want everyone at your speed.. Edit: To guy above you :) Nope i just think that gunfights shouldn't be won by who can be the best wiggler. Yes I am a Gallente thank you for noticing! I'm not as slow as you think my speed penalty is only 5% :).
Stile451 Red STar. EoN. 135	Posted - 2013.07.10 05:13:00 - [13] - Quote The only thing that needs to be done to the HMG is to lower the dispersion by a small amount, say 10%. The HMG is supposed to be a beast in close quarters but this is only the case if the enemy doesn't evade(heavies can't turn). In reality the HMG is best suited to short-mid range(15 to 30m) where tracking isn't that much of an issue but sadly the dispersion makes a real difference to the amount of shots hitting the target at that range. The minor buff to dispersion would give the HMG the edge over the AR in it's true optimal range(closer than 15m the enemy can strafe around you, further than 30m they can out DPS you).
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Top Men. 1026	Posted - 2013.07.10 05:39:00 - [14] - Quote just make heavies turn as fast as an assault. HMG is fixed.
Oso Peresoso RisingSuns 254	Posted - 2013.07.10 07:22:00 - [15] - Quote Give HMGs more range, leave damage, RPM, tracking alone. The damage at range should be mitigated by ****** dispersion
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Top Men. 1028	Posted - 2013.07.10 07:36:00 - [16] - Quote Oso Peresoso wrote: Give HMGs more range, leave damage, RPM, tracking alone. The damage at range should be mitigated by ****** dispersion there is no reason for a CQC suit to not be able to turn fast enough to bitchslap someone at point blank range. if that's the case then clearly the suit was meant to engage at range, not in CQC. Everyone touts heavies as the "CQC kings." Kinda hard to hold that crown when all anyone needs to do to kick your ass is circle strafe around you inside 20 meters while you desperately try to turn so they aren't shooting you in the back.


Pages: 1 :: [one page]