DUST Search - [Suggestion] Projectile weapon overhaul: AR's, Snipers, etc

Vaux Karn wrote:

Just to add a little bit of info for OP...sniper rifles are rail guns which fire their rounds (which are flechettes, aka needles which very little mass) "in excess of 2,500m/s" or 2.5 km per second. These are speeds at which modern bullets would have no noticable drop at our 500m render limit and which a sewing needle (which is more accurate for the mass of the flechette fired) would have less than 5% the drop of said modern bullet. So in respect to projectile physics, the sniper rifle is already good...unless you want it to be more accurate to real physics in which case they would do way more damage (as in kill with one shot because they are blowing of any limb they hit), be effective again vehicles, punch through any thin cover, create a kitten load of particulate shrapnel from impact against anything they can't punch through, and, to top it all off, punch straight through you to hit the guy behind you in addition to turning you into particulate shrapnel. The lore is there, right in the weapon description and understanding it is a matter of applying real physics.

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Broxx Nexular ShitHead Squadron 17	Posted - 2013.07.07 02:23:00 - [1] - Quote First thing's first, discussions about "blah blah AR's are OP" are NOT WELCOME HERE. This is meant to be a meaningful discussion regarding the balance and improvement of weapons in the game. First I want to talk about AR's. AR's need a whole new balance pass. Here are some numbers based on the Advanced level AR's (since they provided the full range of variants): Rifle DMG ROF Mag DPS GEK-38 35.7 750 60 446.25 GB-9 Breach 53.5 400 36 356.66 GK-13 Burst 32.1 833 60 445.54 GLU-5 Tact 75 400 18 499.5 Now, as it should be most of this DPS is in line with two exceptions, the breach and the tactical. Luckily the tacticals have had their ROF reduced to help prevent people using turbo functions. However, I propose that the damage be reduced to 67 per shot, which would bring the DPS to 446.22, and to compensate add a modifier to make headshots do more damage than the other ARs. This would make it so that tactical AR's reward players capable of getting headshots without being too powerful by default. My suggestion for the breach remains the same, increase the damage per shot to 67 to bring it in line with the other ARs. This is also why I suggested the modifier on the tactical so that there is a clear distinction between the two in purpose. Another possibility is to extend the range of the tactical AR in lieu of the increased headshot modifier so that it would become a DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle). With these changes the chart would change to the following: GEK-38 35.7 750 60 446.25 GB-9 Breach 67 400 36 446.22 GK-13 Burst 32.1 833 60 445.54 GLU-5 Tact* 67 400 18 446.22 Represents the selection of either a headshot modifier or range extension in order to distinguish it from the Breach. Now for sniper rifles. After some experimentation I believe the main issue with sniper rifles is the magnification of their scope. Its simply not powerful enough to warrant being a sniper rifle. Trying to hit players at ranges appropriate for a sniper required me to be PIXEL accurate because the magnification wasn't powerful enough. The second issue I ran into is something that also applies to most weapons: Projectile Weapons need bullet physics* from what I can tell AR's, Snipers, SMG's, Pistols, and Shotguns (with exception to the obvious) are based on hitscans, not actual projectiles (i'd be amazed if this wasn't true since all evidence and behavior of weapons points to hitscan weapons with a fake bullet animation) These weapons should have bullet drop that needs to be accounted for. Now, to be clear, it doesn't have to be crazy, but if you're trying to hit someone at the maximum range of the weapon (for example, an AR) then the bullet drop should have the round hitting at their feet if you're aiming for their head. Another necessary factor would be proper bullet velocity. Obviously it would need to be fast, but also slow enough that at extended ranges (particularly for snipers and tactial ARs) it would be necessary to lead your shots. Another thing that is necessary is recoil patterns on automatic weapons. This mainly effects the AR and SMG line. It could be done in two ways. One is to have a default pattern that is somewhat difficult to control and have the sharpshooter skill make it more manageable (don't particularly like this since it indirectly punishes new players). The other possibility is to make a reasonable recoil pattern on the weapons and have the sharpshooter skills reduce the amount of bloom on sustained weapon fire (allows players invested into sharpshooter to fire more shots before the ADS bloom spreads out. I know i'm leaving out HMG's but I don't have a lot of experience with them and have no intention of putting out information without having any personal experience. So anyone with some experience that feels they can give an unbias view of any needed changes is encouraged to do so. TL:DR- Putting in bullet physics and recoil patterns on appropriate weapons would help create better rewards for players more proficient at shooters. AR variants need to be given a pass to make them equal between each other (i'm sure other weapon systems need this also but I reached my math quota for the century)
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 235	Posted - 2013.07.07 04:04:00 - [2] - Quote I stopped reading when you said that ARs need bullet drop. They're plasma energy weapons. Scramblers are pulse laser energy weapons. Also, on a game of the scope that Dust will hopefully be, one day in the next year or two, with a central server bay like it is now rather than hosting matches on player consoles like many other games do, perhaps fully rendering and physics behavior tracking every solid projectile is impractical.
KING CHECKMATE A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 185	Posted - 2013.07.07 04:06:00 - [3] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: I stopped reading when you said that ARs need bullet drop. They're plasma energy weapons. Scramblers are pulse laser energy weapons.. AND STILL Assault scrambler Rifles dont do damage after 40-50 mts but AR do...
Skipper Jones ZionTCD 252	Posted - 2013.07.07 04:53:00 - [4] - Quote So you're saying reduce the buff the DMG of the Breach AR, Nerf the damage to the TaC AR. (Both to the same level) No-one will use the TAC are after that. You wanna make the Breach and the TAC the same gun, except one has LESS bullets and is Semi automatic. Not the best job there.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 157	Posted - 2013.07.07 05:39:00 - [5] - Quote Skipper Jones wrote: So you're saying reduce the buff the DMG of the Breach AR, Nerf the damage to the TaC AR. (Both to the same level) No-one will use the TAC are after that. You wanna make the Breach and the TAC the same gun, except one has LESS bullets and is Semi automatic. Not the best job there. Oh yea my friend, but the breach is short ranged with no special headshot bonus. How fast you able to snap your finger, to get the DPS. ScR/P Headshot bonus- time 4 TAR/ Sniper bonus- X2 Everything else- X1.5
Broxx Nexular ShitHead Squadron 18	Posted - 2013.07.07 06:30:00 - [6] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Oh yea my friend, but the breach is short ranged with no special headshot bonus. How fast you able to snap your finger, to get the DPS. ScR/P Headshot bonus- time 4 TAR/ Sniper bonus- X2 Everything else- X1.5 thanks for reading the post lol look folks, the entire point of this thread is to start a DISCUSSION to help figure out ways we can improve the system. If you disagree with my suggestion, try posting one of your own. I'm just trying to come up with an idea that can allow combat to involve how much actual skill you have rather than just skill points. Remember, the current AR variants are meant to be the racials. Meaning standard AR is Gallente, Breach AR is Caldari, Burst is Minnie, and Tactical is Amarr. At minimum we should agree on a balance suggestion since currently the "Caldari" (Breach) variant of the AR's is worthless in comparison to the others. Quote: I stopped reading when you said that ARs need bullet drop. They're plasma energy weapons. Scramblers are pulse laser energy weapons. what about a recoil pattern? Do you think that would help if the rifles had different (but appropriate and reasonable) recoil patterns ( teh weapon kicking upward and slightly left/right depending on weapon during automatic fire)? I see your point about the projectiles type, i'm just throwing out ideas here. Even if there's not drop there should be an actual projectile vs this hitscan stuff they're using.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 158	Posted - 2013.07.07 15:41:00 - [7] - Quote Recoil patterns are always a balancing factor, which the ARs lack. So long as CCP doesn't overdo recoil patterns like the HMG.
TheEnd762 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 83	Posted - 2013.07.07 17:02:00 - [8] - Quote I stopped reading at "bullet physics". -1
Broxx Nexular ShitHead Squadron 19	Posted - 2013.07.07 18:52:00 - [9] - Quote Went ahead and removed the bullet drop suggestion since some people became illiterate when they got to that part :P
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 236	Posted - 2013.07.07 20:03:00 - [10] - Quote Broxx Nexular wrote: what about a recoil pattern? Do you think that would help if the rifles had different (but appropriate and reasonable) recoil patterns ( teh weapon kicking upward and slightly left/right depending on weapon during automatic fire)? I see your point about the projectiles type, i'm just throwing out ideas here. Even if there's not drop there should be an actual projectile vs this hitscan stuff they're using. My issue with recoil is that it's not actually recoil when the weapons settle back into the exact same point after recoil fades. For most, it's just a graphical effect not a game mechanic. A true recoil mechanic would have the weapon settle on a point near where the shot hit.

Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 162	Posted - 2013.07.07 20:08:00 - [11] - Quote Broxx Nexular wrote: Went ahead and removed the bullet drop suggestion since some people became illiterate when they got to that part :P Thanks, now we can think about ways to balance the ARs among one another, and therefore the racials should be balanced when they hit.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 162	Posted - 2013.07.07 20:12:00 - [12] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Broxx Nexular wrote: what about a recoil pattern? Do you think that would help if the rifles had different (but appropriate and reasonable) recoil patterns ( teh weapon kicking upward and slightly left/right depending on weapon during automatic fire)? I see your point about the projectiles type, i'm just throwing out ideas here. Even if there's not drop there should be an actual projectile vs this hitscan stuff they're using. My issue with recoil is that it's not actually recoil when the weapons settle back into the exact same point after recoil fades. For most, it's just a graphical effect not a game mechanic. A true recoil mechanic would have the weapon settle on a point near where the shot hit. Well, when we add recoil, we need to buff alpha strike so it is rewarding to hit the mark... I hate the lack of recoil, but I want dust to remain a flavor of its own... Meh...
Broxx Nexular ShitHead Squadron 21	Posted - 2013.07.10 02:43:00 - [13] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Broxx Nexular wrote: what about a recoil pattern? Do you think that would help if the rifles had different (but appropriate and reasonable) recoil patterns ( teh weapon kicking upward and slightly left/right depending on weapon during automatic fire)? I see your point about the projectiles type, i'm just throwing out ideas here. Even if there's not drop there should be an actual projectile vs this hitscan stuff they're using. My issue with recoil is that it's not actually recoil when the weapons settle back into the exact same point after recoil fades. For most, it's just a graphical effect not a game mechanic. A true recoil mechanic would have the weapon settle on a point near where the shot hit. Well, when we add recoil, we need to buff alpha strike so it is rewarding to hit the mark... I hate the lack of recoil, but I want dust to remain a flavor of its own... Meh... I agree, its tough to find a good compromise. Though I feel overall having recoil patterns that DON'T settle back to their original position automatically is a good way to go. Hopefully some devs have eyes on this so they can make their own judgements on wether it would help or not. Though my MAIN concern right now is them doing some math and getting the AR variants balanced out so they're all useful (unlike now).
Vaux Karn The Mercenary Collective 24	Posted - 2013.07.10 04:00:00 - [14] - Quote Just to add a little bit of info for OP...sniper rifles are rail guns which fire their rounds (which are flechettes, aka needles which very little mass) "in excess of 2,500m/s" or 2.5 km per second. These are speeds at which modern bullets would have no noticable drop at our 500m render limit and which a sewing needle (which is more accurate for the mass of the flechette fired) would have less than 5% the drop of said modern bullet. So in respect to projectile physics, the sniper rifle is already good...unless you want it to be more accurate to real physics in which case they would do way more damage (as in kill with one shot because they are blowing of any limb they hit), be effective again vehicles, punch through any thin cover, create a kitten load of particulate shrapnel from impact against anything they can't punch through, and, to top it all off, punch straight through you to hit the guy behind you in addition to turning you into particulate shrapnel. The lore is there, right in the weapon description and understanding it is a matter of applying real physics.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 228	Posted - 2013.07.10 04:34:00 - [15] - Quote I don't really care about the ballistics of the weapons. This isn't Arma, or VBS2, it's a fictional video game. I would love to play Arma 2, but my computer probably couldn't handle the Graphics, but its worth a try right?
Broxx Nexular ShitHead Squadron 21	Posted - 2013.07.10 04:44:00 - [16] - Quote Vaux Karn wrote: Just to add a little bit of info for OP...sniper rifles are rail guns which fire their rounds (which are flechettes, aka needles which very little mass) "in excess of 2,500m/s" or 2.5 km per second. These are speeds at which modern bullets would have no noticable drop at our 500m render limit and which a sewing needle (which is more accurate for the mass of the flechette fired) would have less than 5% the drop of said modern bullet. So in respect to projectile physics, the sniper rifle is already good...unless you want it to be more accurate to real physics in which case they would do way more damage (as in kill with one shot because they are blowing of any limb they hit), be effective again vehicles, punch through any thin cover, create a kitten load of particulate shrapnel from impact against anything they can't punch through, and, to top it all off, punch straight through you to hit the guy behind you in addition to turning you into particulate shrapnel. The lore is there, right in the weapon description and understanding it is a matter of applying real physics. As I said, I believe the main issue with them is the magnification of the scope. When I do pick sniper I feel like the scope isn't as powerful as it should be. Engaging targets at ranges appropriate of a sniper feels like I may as well be using iron sights on the thing. At minimum the rifle should have levels of magnification you can switch between for long range shooting. They clearly intend for snipers to be stationary weapons used at extreme distances but the scopes attached to them don't really cater to that IMO
Vaux Karn The Mercenary Collective 24	Posted - 2013.07.10 04:58:00 - [17] - Quote The point I was more trying to get at is that, the sniper rifle would not follow conventional ballistic physics. In fact the only weapon currently in the game that would be applicable to conventional ballistic physics is the HMG, and for the love of (insert religious icon here) it does not need anything else to make it harder to kill with. I do agree that the scope needs more zoom, however I would prefer that to be done through weapon fittings so we can customize our level of zoom to fit the ranges we want to operate from. Regardless though, the render range needs to be fixed first, as people well within the weapon range will at times not render or the terrain will render over or around them.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Top Men. 1026	Posted - 2013.07.10 05:20:00 - [18] - Quote railguns and plasma blasters wouldn't realistically have bullet drop at any ranges meaningful to combat. That's kinda why the military is developing **** like this. Light machineguns in real life don't have meaningful bullet dropoff for over 800 meters (.30 cal). heavy machineguns (the HMG looks like a .50 cal minigun) don't have meaningful bullet drop for over 1000 meters. Lasers should not have bullet drop. it has no mass to drop. it's a coherent light beam that burns holes in things. rockets don't get dropoff unless they're faulty or the motors burn out. Did I miss any of the weapon types? Mass drivers already have dropoff, so no big there.
Broxx Nexular ShitHead Squadron 21	Posted - 2013.07.10 16:05:00 - [19] - Quote Vaux Karn wrote: I would prefer that to be done through weapon fittings so we can customize our level of zoom to fit the ranges we want to operate from. Regardless though, the render range needs to be fixed first, as people well within the weapon range will at times not render or the terrain will render over or around them. . I would love to see weapon fittings also, but I feel like we wont see something of that nature for awhile. Likely not until there's a full line of racial items will we even HEAR about it, IMO. The rendering issues will work out over time. I've done a little work with UDK and there's always issues with things rendering properly to some degree whenever I used it.


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