DUST Search - Why AR have 6 skills and others weapons 5 and less?

Broxx Nexular wrote:

You're all missing a HUGE part of the basic Assault Rifle role.

The AR is MEANT to be used by a lot of people. Its the workhorse of ANY military organization. There's a reason you don't see every military in the world issuing LMG's and sniper rifles instead of AR's. Just because a weapon is widely used doesn't necessarily mean its OP, just like a weapon not being widely used doesn't mean its balanced.

I agree AR's need a tweak, but not a nerf. I intend to make a thread about this because its not just AR's that need this kind of attention, however:

1. All projectile weapons (AR's, SMG's, snipers, etc) should be using actual projectiles with bullet drop over ranges (where applicable of course). It doesn't have to be anything crazy, but putting in bullet drop on them as well as actual projectiles with velocity creates a better curve of skills for players to require before becoming proficient with a "standard" projectile weapon such as an AR or sniper rifle, both of which appear to be based more on hit-scan systems than actual projectiles.

2. Recoil patterns. I use a KB/M setup so I wont pretend to know what its like to control recoil patterns with a controller, but the players I have spoken with about it claim that its just as much a matter of skill as it is with a KB/M. Automatic weapons should also have recoil patterns to go with them that have to be compensated for as a player continues rapid fire with them.

3. AR's between the individual variants (default, burst, breach, etc) need to be properly balanced BETWEEN THEMSELVES. As it currently stands Breach AR is a joke and does FAR less damage overall than the standard AR.

There's a lot more to this and i'll be making a seperate thread with some actual numbers on the subject, but in relation to the topic of discussion: AR's are not OP, they need tweaks to bring them all in line with each other, that's all. AR's are meant to be the work horse of a military force, other weapons are used on a case-sensitive basis.

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October SnowFox Vacuum Cleaner. LLC RUST415 35	Posted - 2013.07.06 15:13:00 - [1] - Quote As some weapon has useless skills....
darkiller240 INGLORIOUS-INQUISITION 31	Posted - 2013.07.06 15:39:00 - [2] - Quote CCP love AR thats why there OP
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 148	Posted - 2013.07.06 16:06:00 - [3] - Quote We have known that CCP likes the ARs for a long time, it has all the skills and variants it wants. The AR needs to have 1 fourth the range once the new racials come in. Then the ARs will have a downside, and the other guns have a hope in hell of not being a novelty like ScR is right now.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 2198	Posted - 2013.07.06 16:09:00 - [4] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: We have known that CCP likes the ARs for a long time, it has all the skills and variants it wants. The AR needs to have 1 fourth the range once the new racials come in. Then the ARs will have a downside, and the other guns have a hope in hell of not being a novelty like ScR is right now. I think the standard AR needs an increase to dispersion rate. You really shouldn't be able to empty most of the magazine before your aim is affected.
Funkmaster Whale 0uter.Heaven 33	Posted - 2013.07.06 16:11:00 - [5] - Quote They have already addressed this. They intend to give each weapon other specialization skills but ran out of time. That's why you see some skills (Fitting Optimization - 6x) which do useless things like reduce PG on a weapon that doesn't use PG (Flaylock, for example). They claim they are going to do another parse of the weapon skills and give each one a bonus skill similar to the AR. Note: The SMG also has the Sharpshooter skill.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 153	Posted - 2013.07.06 16:57:00 - [6] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: We have known that CCP likes the ARs for a long time, it has all the skills and variants it wants. The AR needs to have 1 fourth the range once the new racials come in. Then the ARs will have a downside, and the other guns have a hope in hell of not being a novelty like ScR is right now. I think the standard AR needs an increase to dispersion rate. You really shouldn't be able to empty most of the magazine before your aim is affected. All the ARs need more dispersion. Then that AR skill will have an effect. It don't matter if my gun is proto so now it is a laser. But yeah, your idea is better then mine. +1 for your balancing idea. Cookie for you.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 153	Posted - 2013.07.06 17:06:00 - [7] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: They have already addressed this. They intend to give each weapon other specialization skills but ran out of time. That's why you see some skills (Fitting Optimization - 6x) which do useless things like reduce PG on a weapon that doesn't use PG (Flaylock, for example). They claim they are going to do another parse of the weapon skills and give each one a bonus skill similar to the AR. Note: The SMG also has the Sharpshooter skill. The problem ain't the skills. It's the damn weapon. I'm a full blooded Calamari, so I shield tank. The ScR, the anti shield weapon, has killed me only once. You know the weapon that killed me the most, in fact basically EVERY time? The AR. The wildly damaging, laser precise, long range butcher. Every other gun besides AV or the MD is a novelty in the face of an AR.
Funkmaster Whale 0uter.Heaven 37	Posted - 2013.07.06 17:33:00 - [8] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: They have already addressed this. They intend to give each weapon other specialization skills but ran out of time. That's why you see some skills (Fitting Optimization - 6x) which do useless things like reduce PG on a weapon that doesn't use PG (Flaylock, for example). They claim they are going to do another parse of the weapon skills and give each one a bonus skill similar to the AR. Note: The SMG also has the Sharpshooter skill. The problem ain't the skills. It's the damn weapon. I'm a full blooded Calamari, so I shield tank. The ScR, the anti shield weapon, has killed me only once. You know the weapon that killed me the most, in fact basically EVERY time? The AR. The wildly damaging, laser precise, long range butcher. Every other gun besides AV or the MD is a novelty in the face of an AR. Do you know why? For everyone one ScR user, there's 9 AR users. It's not necessarily the fact that they're OP but because most people tend to veer towards what they're familiar with. I know I do, it's the same reason I always order a double meat barbacoa burrito with everything but guacamole from Chipotle. ARs are great where they are. The last thing this game needs is more nerfs. Other weapons should be brought in line with the AR instead. Once you get to the Proto level and start fighting all Proto teams in PC, you'll realize ARs aren't really kings. Grenades, flaylocks, and other AoE-based weapons are best because hit-detection and huge HP pools make it hard to kill people with just bullets so people resort to spamming nades at each other since it's really the only way to do enough damage to someone to kill them.
DoomLead Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 87	Posted - 2013.07.06 17:44:00 - [9] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: They have already addressed this. They intend to give each weapon other specialization skills but ran out of time. That's why you see some skills (Fitting Optimization - 6x) which do useless things like reduce PG on a weapon that doesn't use PG (Flaylock, for example). They claim they are going to do another parse of the weapon skills and give each one a bonus skill similar to the AR. Note: The SMG also has the Sharpshooter skill. The problem ain't the skills. It's the damn weapon. I'm a full blooded Calamari, so I shield tank. The ScR, the anti shield weapon, has killed me only once. You know the weapon that killed me the most, in fact basically EVERY time? The AR. The wildly damaging, laser precise, long range butcher. Every other gun besides AV or the MD is a novelty in the face of an AR. Do you know why? For everyone one ScR user, there's 9 AR users. It's not necessarily the fact that they're OP but because most people tend to veer towards what they're familiar with. I know I do, it's the same reason I always order a double meat barbacoa burrito with everything but guacamole from Chipotle. ARs are great where they are. The last thing this game needs is more nerfs. Other weapons should be brought in line with the AR instead. Once you get to the Proto level and start fighting all Proto teams in PC, you'll realize ARs aren't really kings. Grenades, flaylocks, and other AoE-based weapons are best because hit-detection and huge HP pools make it hard to kill people with just bullets so people resort to spamming nades at each other since it's really the only way to do enough damage to someone to kill them. ^this^ reason i stopped saying **** about the AR
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 153	Posted - 2013.07.06 17:47:00 - [10] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: They have already addressed this. They intend to give each weapon other specialization skills but ran out of time. That's why you see some skills (Fitting Optimization - 6x) which do useless things like reduce PG on a weapon that doesn't use PG (Flaylock, for example). They claim they are going to do another parse of the weapon skills and give each one a bonus skill similar to the AR. Note: The SMG also has the Sharpshooter skill. The problem ain't the skills. It's the damn weapon. I'm a full blooded Calamari, so I shield tank. The ScR, the anti shield weapon, has killed me only once. You know the weapon that killed me the most, in fact basically EVERY time? The AR. The wildly damaging, laser precise, long range butcher. Every other gun besides AV or the MD is a novelty in the face of an AR. Do you know why? For everyone one ScR user, there's 9 AR users. It's not necessarily the fact that they're OP but because most people tend to veer towards what they're familiar with. I know I do, it's the same reason I always order a double meat barbacoa burrito with everything but guacamole from Chipotle. ARs are great where they are. The last thing this game needs is more nerfs. Other weapons should be brought in line with the AR instead. Once you get to the Proto level and start fighting all Proto teams in PC, you'll realize ARs aren't really kings. Grenades, flaylocks, and other AoE-based weapons are best because hit-detection and huge HP pools make it hard to kill people with just bullets so people resort to spamming nades at each other since it's really the only way to do enough damage to someone to kill them. You right that the AR is good where it is. It is too good. Why use the ScR when the AR also deals good damage to shields, better damage to armor, 60round box 450 DPS, doesn't backfire and kill you... I'm not saying need it into the ground NOW. But when the time comes with the racial weapons it should be whacked so they don't become novelties that gentlemen use to duel with.

Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 153	Posted - 2013.07.06 17:56:00 - [11] - Quote DoomLead wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: They have already addressed this. They intend to give each weapon other specialization skills but ran out of time. That's why you see some skills (Fitting Optimization - 6x) which do useless things like reduce PG on a weapon that doesn't use PG (Flaylock, for example). They claim they are going to do another parse of the weapon skills and give each one a bonus skill similar to the AR. Note: The SMG also has the Sharpshooter skill. The problem ain't the skills. It's the damn weapon. I'm a full blooded Calamari, so I shield tank. The ScR, the anti shield weapon, has killed me only once. You know the weapon that killed me the most, in fact basically EVERY time? The AR. The wildly damaging, laser precise, long range butcher. Every other gun besides AV or the MD is a novelty in the face of an AR. Do you know why? For everyone one ScR user, there's 9 AR users. It's not necessarily the fact that they're OP but because most people tend to veer towards what they're familiar with. I know I do, it's the same reason I always order a double meat barbacoa burrito with everything but guacamole from Chipotle. ARs are great where they are. The last thing this game needs is more nerfs. Other weapons should be brought in line with the AR instead. Once you get to the Proto level and start fighting all Proto teams in PC, you'll realize ARs aren't really kings. Grenades, flaylocks, and other AoE-based weapons are best because hit-detection and huge HP pools make it hard to kill people with just bullets so people resort to spamming nades at each other since it's really the only way to do enough damage to someone to kill them. ^this^ reason i stopped saying **** about the AR Eh, I nobody does, I still will. The AR is the reason every other gun is UP, and it basically breaking the viability of every other weapon besides AV or or the godlock. If the weapons balancing is a scale, then somebody threw a sack of concrete on the AR. Hopefully the Racials will put the AR where it should be.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 155	Posted - 2013.07.06 20:01:00 - [12] - Quote Das Bump This discussion cannot die! Some one add to this ARs have more accommodations then other guns!
Broxx Nexular ShitHead Squadron 16	Posted - 2013.07.07 00:09:00 - [13] - Quote You're all missing a HUGE part of the basic Assault Rifle role. The AR is MEANT to be used by a lot of people. Its the workhorse of ANY military organization. There's a reason you don't see every military in the world issuing LMG's and sniper rifles instead of AR's. Just because a weapon is widely used doesn't necessarily mean its OP, just like a weapon not being widely used doesn't mean its balanced. I agree AR's need a tweak, but not a nerf. I intend to make a thread about this because its not just AR's that need this kind of attention, however: 1. All projectile weapons (AR's, SMG's, snipers, etc) should be using actual projectiles with bullet drop over ranges (where applicable of course). It doesn't have to be anything crazy, but putting in bullet drop on them as well as actual projectiles with velocity creates a better curve of skills for players to require before becoming proficient with a "standard" projectile weapon such as an AR or sniper rifle, both of which appear to be based more on hit-scan systems than actual projectiles. 2. Recoil patterns. I use a KB/M setup so I wont pretend to know what its like to control recoil patterns with a controller, but the players I have spoken with about it claim that its just as much a matter of skill as it is with a KB/M. Automatic weapons should also have recoil patterns to go with them that have to be compensated for as a player continues rapid fire with them. 3. AR's between the individual variants (default, burst, breach, etc) need to be properly balanced BETWEEN THEMSELVES. As it currently stands Breach AR is a joke and does FAR less damage overall than the standard AR. There's a lot more to this and i'll be making a seperate thread with some actual numbers on the subject, but in relation to the topic of discussion: AR's are not OP, they need tweaks to bring them all in line with each other, that's all. AR's are meant to be the work horse of a military force, other weapons are used on a case-sensitive basis.
CharCharOdell Shining Flame Amarr Empire 256	Posted - 2013.07.07 00:59:00 - [14] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: They have already addressed this. They intend to give each weapon other specialization skills but ran out of time. That's why you see some skills (Fitting Optimization - 6x) which do useless things like reduce PG on a weapon that doesn't use PG (Flaylock, for example). They claim they are going to do another parse of the weapon skills and give each one a bonus skill similar to the AR. Note: The SMG also has the Sharpshooter skill. The problem ain't the skills. It's the damn weapon. I'm a full blooded Calamari, so I shield tank. The ScR, the anti shield weapon, has killed me only once. You know the weapon that killed me the most, in fact basically EVERY time? The AR. The wildly damaging, laser precise, long range butcher. Every other gun besides AV or the MD is a novelty in the face of an AR. fact. i recently specced into the cal logi thinking that scramblers and lasers would hurt; they tickle. im still afraid of the AR.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 432	Posted - 2013.07.07 01:03:00 - [15] - Quote darkiller240 wrote: CCP love AR thats why there OP AR is not OP, it is strong compared to other rifles like the laser rifle. If more people used the AsCR then people would start calling that one OP, the AsCR is a really good AR. What really is OP are flaylocks.
KING CHECKMATE A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 185	Posted - 2013.07.07 01:12:00 - [16] - Quote AR - At Midlong range i shoot someone with My scrambler Rifle WITH the aim on and hit him 1 of 2 shots. He is spamming r1 and hitting 50 out of 60 bullets. Its way to precise at almost any range except long-very long. (and i wont even START talking about the Assault SCRAMBLER rifle, that at level 4 you basically still dont have anything upgraded for it,since the scrambler ''bonus'' is 5% reduction on ''charge time'' ,which it doesnt have...) AR are basically NOT OP. The rest of the weapons just suck. Put 90 damage per shot of the scrambler rifle, Longer range and rof on Submachine-guns, less recoil on the assault scrambler rifle, a 2 shot clip for the plasma cannon,24 clip to the tac assault rifle, 7 burst shots to the Burst AR, etcetc... and getting shot in the face by an Auto AR wont feel too bad anymore....
Demon Buddah The Phoenix Federation 8	Posted - 2013.07.07 01:19:00 - [17] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: darkiller240 wrote: CCP love AR thats why there OP AR is not OP, it is strong compared to other rifles like the laser rifle. If more people used the AsCR then people would start calling that one OP, the AsCR is a really good AR. What really is OP are flaylocks. This is true. I use an AR myself but even I still have problems killing people. The AR does normal damage to both shield and armor, while weapons like the Scrambler Rifle is supposed to do better against shield. Some people just have great aim and can hit you just about everytime so it does a lot of damage. I armor tank, but when I go against someone with an Assault Scrambler Rifle I die or get pretty close. Now the Flaylock, they really need to do something about that. I mean don't nerf it to the point of being absolute ****, but when you can fire two shots at someone, both shield and someone with high armor, and kill them instantly or be really close, that's too powerful. I even started using the Flaylock myself so I can say that it is too powerful, or the splash damage is too large. AR is fine, don't ruin that.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 157	Posted - 2013.07.07 04:38:00 - [18] - Quote Ok. When the racials are released, the AR (I hate that name, way too general...) needs to be tweaked as to be inline with the new guns. Based of the current AR range, the AR needs to lose lik a fourth the range so we don't have weapons that can fight from redline to redline (and they aren't even snipers!). The CR needs to have one fourth of the current ARs range added on so it is a moderate ranged weapon, and a slight drop in DPS. The ScR I'm skipping. The RR needs a third more range, the Breachs Damage with a slight RoF buff so it don't suck as bad as the Breach does right now. When those weapons hit, the AR needs major tweaking, and it is a little too accurate, but right now it is fine. Me-Co Out.
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 205	Posted - 2013.07.07 04:43:00 - [19] - Quote To keep the cookie cutter shooter boys occupied?
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 157	Posted - 2013.07.07 04:54:00 - [20] - Quote Rynoceros wrote: To keep the cookie cutter shooter boys occupied? That's how I feel CCP made the ARs to cater to.. But back then we didn't have the arsenal we have now, so it needs/ will need some slight tweaking so the new guns are useful.

Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 160	Posted - 2013.07.07 14:49:00 - [21] - Quote Broxx Nexular wrote: You're all missing a HUGE part of the basic Assault Rifle role. The AR is MEANT to be used by a lot of people. Its the workhorse of ANY military organization. There's a reason you don't see every military in the world issuing LMG's and sniper rifles instead of AR's. Just because a weapon is widely used doesn't necessarily mean its OP, just like a weapon not being widely used doesn't mean its balanced. I agree AR's need a tweak, but not a nerf. I intend to make a thread about this because its not just AR's that need this kind of attention, however: 1. All projectile weapons (AR's, SMG's, snipers, etc) should be using actual projectiles with bullet drop over ranges (where applicable of course). It doesn't have to be anything crazy, but putting in bullet drop on them as well as actual projectiles with velocity creates a better curve of skills for players to require before becoming proficient with a "standard" projectile weapon such as an AR or sniper rifle, both of which appear to be based more on hit-scan systems than actual projectiles. 2. Recoil patterns. I use a KB/M setup so I wont pretend to know what its like to control recoil patterns with a controller, but the players I have spoken with about it claim that its just as much a matter of skill as it is with a KB/M. Automatic weapons should also have recoil patterns to go with them that have to be compensated for as a player continues rapid fire with them. 3. AR's between the individual variants (default, burst, breach, etc) need to be properly balanced BETWEEN THEMSELVES. As it currently stands Breach AR is a joke and does FAR less damage overall than the standard AR. There's a lot more to this and i'll be making a seperate thread with some actual numbers on the subject, but in relation to the topic of discussion: AR's are not OP, they need tweaks to bring them all in line with each other, that's all. AR's are meant to be the work horse of a military force, other weapons are used on a case-sensitive basis. This is a work of fiction, what you really would use is all null. Currently, the AR needs to be balanced among all the weapon, which for the most part is fine. But if the stats that the variants have, it will need moderate tweaks because many of thee variants are considerably UP compared To the other variants, which will be the template of the new racial rifles. CCP needs to take extra care to balance these weapons before releasing them, so they don't become redundant with the ARs variants.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 555	Posted - 2013.07.07 16:43:00 - [22] - Quote According to many unless you use an AR you are a no skill scrub so maybe that's why.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization 19	Posted - 2013.07.07 18:19:00 - [23] - Quote ars might be one of the weakest weapons in the game... u get slaughtered by them all the time because of all the nerfs.. and the fact that they r the most use weapons but looking at them now.. and comparingthem to everything else. there about on the same killing level of every other gun out there... u just need skills for the other guns as they might be better any ways...
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1157	Posted - 2013.07.08 04:01:00 - [24] - Quote The thread where the devs noted the skill issue can be found here. No ETA on the fix/changes on these.
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 167	Posted - 2013.07.08 04:34:00 - [25] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: ars might be one of the weakest weapons in the game... u get slaughtered by them all the time because of all the nerfs.. and the fact that they r the most use weapons but looking at them now.. and comparingthem to everything else. there about on the same killing level of every other gun out there... u just need skills for the other guns as they might be better any ways... So, a laser precise, 425 DPS long range razor isn't OP? If some real dispersion is added, enough so that at Proto there is some dispersion in the shots, that would be enough to create the level of player skill that the other guns need.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization 19	Posted - 2013.07.09 00:31:00 - [26] - Quote well laser is a pojntless gun now it needs a buff it can kill shield about as fast as it killied a player before uprising the other prob with it is its sights. i kinda forgot about the laser since its useless now. not really a gun any more.. more of an annoyance gun really..
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 183	Posted - 2013.07.09 01:11:00 - [27] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: well laser is a pojntless gun now it needs a buff it can kill shield about as fast as it killied a player before uprising the other prob with it is its sights. i kinda forgot about the laser since its useless now. not really a gun any more.. more of an annoyance gun really.. No, I mean that it is as accurate as the laser. Hell, the ScR has more kick then the AR! And all its doing is flashing a damn strong flashlight with its frequencies modulated.


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