I think most of us can agree that Light Frame/Scout has the hardest lot in the game.

They're squishy, not so insanely fast to justify the other vulnerabilities, and Assault, Logi, and Heavy can each outclass them in a role that the Scout is supposed to do well.

So what I'm wondering is: what would improve the class that wouldn't just make it more like one of the other classes?

My thought:

Have Light Frames only show up on radar if you spot them directly. Right now no amount of signature management matters if the other team has a six-man squad and at least one of them has direct line-of-sight to you. Target data shared between squad members nullifies stealth.

This change would let them be the sneaky, deadly ninjas they should be if they're good at flanking and moving from cover to cover, without making them too assault-like or frame-rate-breakingly fast.


Post your own interesting ideas, maybe we can inspire CCP.

I would say another equipment slot + a cpu/pg boost + a buff to move/sprint speed is what scouts need.

Why?

An extra equipment slot would allow me to do more scout-y things at once, like uplink + scanner or uplink + stealth (once it gets here)

The cpu/pg boost would be so that I could actually fit this new equipment on my already cpu/pg tight suit

The move/sprint speed boost would help move the scout away from being a weak assault. 0.5-0.6 m/s difference between our assault variants isn't much to talk about.
Edit: I'm not sure how much of a buff we need for speed, but it needs to be enough so that the two slowest scouts (Caldari and Amarr) are still quite a bit faster than any other suit's base speed.

In addition to what I said above, I'm slightly against adding more highs and lows to scouts (I'd take it just because CCP needs to throw scouts a bone though).

The reason is because at the moment there are no useful modules for scouting. What about the ones that affect passive scan? Even if passive scan actually worked, for most scout-related roles they aren't very useful. The precision enhancers? Only really useful to a scout for finding another scout. The profile dampener? Only useful for a scout hiding from a scout hunter. Range amplifier? Perhaps a cqc scout would find it useful (Would need a minja or shoty scout's POV on this). All of these (except the cqc scout) are highly specialized fits. What about codebreakers then? While I do find they are helpful, the extra hacking speed provided by them rarely feels necessary. I feel most scouts probably wouldn't see much use in adding these modules.

What would these new slots go to then? Adding more tank or more gank. While that is good for scout survivability, it would also would further encourage scouts to play like speedy assaults which I do not believe is what CCP intended for the scout.

Not so insanely fast? Maybe you should check builds with other scouts to get your speed up
Hell tonight alone I was in a match and Asher Night stood out since he was running laps on top of the installation thats like a huge warehouse with the hacking point inside it doing full circuits in the time it took me to run up a ramp inside

The speed had nothing to do with me doing well in that game. It was the position. Enemies can't get to you easily in the spot I was at. Maybe you noticed how quickly I died once enemies finally came up there?

Either way, I wasn't actually running at a blinding speed - the top of that building is just smaller than it looks. Once I start getting shot at, I can't even get away from heavies and their HMG's that are 20 meters away. That's WITH a complex kinetic.

Buff their HP to that of a Logistics, nerf their speed to assault x 1.02, nerf their shield regen to assault levels but with a delay in between assault and logistics, keep all other base stats, give them 3-3 slots and 2 equipment slots.

-- QQ snipped --

You have a great sense of humor.

No freaking reality going on at all but humor, you got buckets of.

I keep up with scout gameplay and the biggest complaint I see is that you guys cannot survive. I am suggesting a buff to survivability is that not what you want? Or is it something else?

Buff their HP to that of a Logistics, nerf their speed to assault x 1.02, nerf their shield regen to assault levels but with a delay in between assault and logistics, keep all other base stats, give them 3-3 slots, 2 equipment slots, and more CPU/PG.

I keep up with scout gameplay and the biggest complaint I see is that you guys cannot survive. I am suggesting a buff to survivability is that not what you want? Or is it something else?

Pretty much copy pasting what i said in a feedback thread here :

This suit is in a pretty bad place at the moment. It could use a buff to its HP potential but in order to keep it in its niche, it shouldnt be a massive buff. Scouts are bound to remain pretty much paper made in comparison to other suit frames.

But, they need to have a more tactical role as they're intended to be. Some suits to use with caution but that should be able to tactically impact the game.

I think the 2nd equipment slot some add in Codex was a good idea. Equipment = Tactic. Imo it suits more the suit than adding any mod slot.

Add to that a bonus to hacking speed for Scout suit instead of the reduction to radar signature. Again, tactical impact. Sneaky fast hacks.

A buff to PG\CPU to support the second equipment role (and\or allow a better fitting to max HP a bit more)

I also like the idea of "insert name" about buffing scan radius and efficiency. On the other hand, scouts cannot be left out from the team shared knowledge when spotted. I dont know if this is already implement as i never paid attention, but smaller targets should remain visible on the radar less time than big targets once spotted and lost from sight. If this is possible, it would be a nice addition.

As for a buff to speed, i already find them pretty freakin fast as is. And considering the Hit detection issues, i'd try buffing those stuff above before touching their base speed.

- 5% increase in PG/CPU for the advanced level suit (I currently have the Core Dropsuit Skills at level 3, Electronics at level 5 and Engineering at level 5, but I still can't use all my slots if I equip a Complex KinCat, a Complex Armor Rep, one complex level weapon (and one level 4) a basic level shield extender and an uplink.
- One extra equipment slot on the prototype level suit
- Additional CPU/PG to allow usage of the extra equipment slot
- Increased base scan range to 15-20 meters

Thought Experiment:

1) Create a class and call it 'Recon Drone' or 'Robot'. Describe it in plain words, as intended to serve a support and non-combat role to benefit teammates and impact matches strictly though tactics. Code the class to be more effective than other classes at serving its described, non-combat role.

2) Create a class called 'Scout'. Describe it with words like "fast", "stealthy" and "assassin". Code the class to be only slightly faster than medium, only slightly stealthier than a heavy, and make it terribly disadvantaged in combat.

3) Find newcomers to Dust and ask them to choose from the two options above. Keep tabs on the ones who choose Scout.

4) Wait a few months, then ask the Scouts who remain if (a) do you feel cheated and (b) will you stick around Dust if we make you better at non-combat roles?

-Shotty GoBang

i agree scouts are pretty misguiding. Or to be more accurate, dont fulfill the promised role.

Pretty much copy pasting what i said in a feedback thread here :

This suit is in a pretty bad place at the moment. It could use a buff to its HP potential but in order to keep it in its niche, it shouldnt be a massive buff. Scouts are bound to remain pretty much paper made in comparison to other suit frames.

But, they need to have a more tactical role as they're intended to be. Some suits to use with caution but that should be able to tactically impact the game.

I think the 2nd equipment slot some add in Codex was a good idea. Equipment = Tactic. Imo it suits more the suit than adding any mod slot.

Add to that a bonus to hacking speed for Scout suit instead of the reduction to radar signature. Again, tactical impact. Sneaky fast hacks.

A buff to PG\CPU to support the second equipment role (and\or allow a better fitting to max HP a bit more)

I also like the idea of "insert name" about buffing scan radius and efficiency. On the other hand, scouts cannot be left out from the team shared knowledge when spotted. I dont know if this is already implement as i never paid attention, but smaller targets should remain visible on the radar less time than big targets once spotted and lost from sight. If this is possible, it would be a nice addition.

As for a buff to speed, i already find them pretty freakin fast as is. And considering the Hit detection issues, i'd try buffing those stuff above before touching their base speed.

i agree scouts are pretty misguiding. Or to be more accurate, dont fulfill the promised role.

Give a headshot bonus to the gal, (we can now see back gal scout sniper and with pistol)

Hi everyone,

just wanted to post something about those people who think scouts are so damn fast.

Base stats:

Minma scout: 7.9 m/s

Minma Assault: 7.4 m/s

This means the scout runs 0.5 m/s faster than the assault. So let's assume something:

You as a shotgun scout see the assault player which is 10 meters away. He didn't see you and starts sprinting only in one direction. Then you would need 10 sec to get in the 5 meter range.

I know this is only theory but it should demonstrate how much faster the scout suit really is.

So for all those minma assault players out there. Put one adv kin cats on and no scout will ever catch you.

Bye

I have to comment on this, because your post comes across like you know what's up to the "people who think scouts are so damn fast". Show us, please.... or, actually, let me show you.

I agree with the spirit of your post in that base Scouts really are not that much faster than assaults, particularly the Minmatar assault. This is *more* a problem when running away from opponents as a scout's back is typically turned and the assault doesn't need to run to catch the scout; their bullets can usually do the job with greater ease.

But practice is different than theory. When it comes to running someone down, instead of running away, things are different.

The Minnie Assault has a run speed of 7.4, but a stamina of 175 (Scout is 200). But it only has 2 low slots. With a complex kin/cat and complex stamina mod the suit is at ~8.3 m/s sprint, 350 stamina (in reality these numbers are bigger as the L5 skills augment the base stats and module efficacy for both suits). To run these mods you need to take biotics skill to level 5, and the cardiac regulation to L5, and the kinetic catalyzation skill to L5. How many assualts make this kind of SP investment? My bet, is.... not that many, so the likelihood of running into a Minmitar assault with complex biotic mods? Not super high, I've never 'run' into one.

The Minnie scout running the same mods is at ~8.9 sprint, about 400 stam. It's pretty certain most minnie scouts have the skills to run the best biotics/stamina mods, it's a priority for this suit and playstyle. Your chance of running into one? Very good.

So, .6 m/s speed gap, with 50 more stamina..... assuming both players using complex mods.

And if someone is taking your advice to *only* run an Enhanced kin/cat on their Minnie assault suit....? Well, let's hope they are only trying to outrun another assault suit....

This doesn't take into account the few Gallente scouts running all biotics in their 4 low slots.... or the Minnie scouts running 2 complex kin/cats. 10+m/s sprint in both cases.

No doubt that a Minmatar assault can run taking your advice. But, there are STILL so many scouts out there than will easily run you down. Hell, they will probably catch you, stop, sharpen their knives while you run away again, then run you down again, pass you, turn around and stab you in the face.

Best bet - make the investment to use complex kin/cats and a stamina mod if you want your Minnie Assault to have a prayer to outrun a scout. Even then pray you run across a rare scout not using biotics, or using militia ones.... And if you try to run from a proto gallente packing bioitics in their 4 low slots? Well, turn around and fight I guess because now way will you get away. 10m/s sprint, stamina over 400 at LEAST.

You can't outrun me in your cumbersome assault suit - don't tell me that you can. in fact, don't even try... it's embarrassing to watch.

I think most of us can agree that Light Frame/Scout has the hardest lot in the game.

They're squishy, not so insanely fast to justify the other vulnerabilities, and Assault, Logi, and Heavy can each outclass them in a role that the Scout is supposed to do well.

So what I'm wondering is: what would improve the class that wouldn't just make it more like one of the other classes?

My thought:

Have Light Frames only show up on radar if you spot them directly. Right now no amount of signature management matters if the other team has a six-man squad and at least one of them has direct line-of-sight to you. Target data shared between squad members nullifies stealth.

This change would let them be the sneaky, deadly ninjas they should be if they're good at flanking and moving from cover to cover, without making them too assault-like or frame-rate-breakingly fast.


Post your own interesting ideas, maybe we can inspire CCP.

I think most of us can agree that Light Frame/Scout has the hardest lot in the game.

They're squishy, not so insanely fast to justify the other vulnerabilities, and Assault, Logi, and Heavy can each outclass them in a role that the Scout is supposed to do well.

So what I'm wondering is: what would improve the class that wouldn't just make it more like one of the other classes?

My thought:

Have Light Frames only show up on radar if you spot them directly. Right now no amount of signature management matters if the other team has a six-man squad and at least one of them has direct line-of-sight to you. Target data shared between squad members nullifies stealth.

This change would let them be the sneaky, deadly ninjas they should be if they're good at flanking and moving from cover to cover, without making them too assault-like or frame-rate-breakingly fast.


Post your own interesting ideas, maybe we can inspire CCP.

Aaaaaand another thing......vehicles should show up on ALL tacnets a hell of a lot sooner and at much greater ranges and with high precision - this just makes sense and would go a long way towards reasonably addressing the murder taxi issue.

There are many suits in the Dust. Try a different one.

Scouts suit (sorry) a specific set of purposes and work well for the Mercs that I play with. Shotties, Nova Knives and Hackers are all very functional.

These are the stats for a minmatar scout and minmatar assault both with same shotgun and both with 2 enhanced kinetic catalyzers, with the rest of their resources sunk into shields. Against a non-CQC character, do you think the 9.09 sprint vs the 8.52 sprint is going to matter as much as the 148hp bonus on an assault suit over a scout suit?

While I don't necessarily think that scouts should get a movement speed upgrade or that other suits should be slowed down, I don't think the scout's benefits matter very much compared to them being made of paper; if a scout doesn't have enough health to survive any shots it doesn't matter what they're good at, because there isn't realistically a role for "not getting shot" as a scout. Run and hide is a great role scouts should fill but at the moment I feel that either scouts are too weak or weapons are too strong to make it a viable tactic: if you have to run it's already too late for most scouts.

Pretty much copy pasting what i said in a feedback thread here :

This suit is in a pretty bad place at the moment. It could use a buff to its HP potential but in order to keep it in its niche, it shouldnt be a massive buff. Scouts are bound to remain pretty much paper made in comparison to other suit frames.

But, they need to have a more tactical role as they're intended to be. Some suits to use with caution but that should be able to tactically impact the game.

I think the 2nd equipment slot some add in Codex was a good idea. Equipment = Tactic. Imo it suits more the suit than adding any mod slot.

Add to that a bonus to hacking speed for Scout suit instead of the reduction to radar signature. Again, tactical impact. Sneaky fast hacks.

A buff to PG\CPU to support the second equipment role (and\or allow a better fitting to max HP a bit more)

I also like the idea of "insert name" about buffing scan radius and efficiency. On the other hand, scouts cannot be left out from the team shared knowledge when spotted. I dont know if this is already implement as i never paid attention, but smaller targets should remain visible on the radar less time than big targets once spotted and lost from sight. If this is possible, it would be a nice addition.

As for a buff to speed, i already find them pretty freakin fast as is. And considering the Hit detection issues, i'd try buffing those stuff above before touching their base speed.

ehh i think scouts are pretty good. the only thing it really needs is a cpu pg buff. however an extra equipment would be nice too

What exactly is it that makes them better suited to these roles (other than nova knives on a Minmatar scout which at best are a niche weapon) than a medium suit with more modules, shield, and armor?


I did this rough math for another thread, but I'll put it here to illustrate my point as this is a better place for it:


Scout Proto with K5:
shield-265
armor-70
sprint-9.09
movement-5.7
total cpu 10
total pg 3

Assault Proto with K5:
shield-348
armor-135
sprint-8.52
movement-5.3
total cpu 46
total pg 0

These are the stats for a minmatar scout and minmatar assault both with same shotgun and both with 2 enhanced kinetic catalyzers, with the rest of their resources sunk into shields. Against a non-CQC character, do you think the 9.09 sprint vs the 8.52 sprint is going to matter as much as the 148hp bonus on an assault suit over a scout suit?

While I don't necessarily think that scouts should get a movement speed upgrade or that other suits should be slowed down, I don't think the scout's benefits matter very much compared to them being made of paper; if a scout doesn't have enough health to survive any shots it doesn't matter what they're good at, because there isn't realistically a role for "not getting shot" as a scout. Run and hide is a great role scouts should fill but at the moment I feel that either scouts are too weak or weapons are too strong to make it a viable tactic: if you have to run it's already too late for most scouts.

Hi Matticus Monk,

first off i am myself a scout player and i hate those medium suits . Maybe i shouldn't have made the post after a series of bad games. So i did get angry.
All i wanted to point out is "look at the stats of the suits". If you see a scout who's running so fast is because he/she uses his/her whole low slots for biotic modules, and that cost sp like you said.

I am not complaining about the scout speed i am complaining about the people who don't realise what it costs to run those modules in cpu and pg not only sp. And what the scout player has to sacrifice (in his fitting) if he wants to run at 10 m/s.

Btw I had some better games now .

you guys should see my minmetar proto logi. 9.9m/S sprint, 40% natural hacking speed, 400 hp shield,160 armor. i outrun scout all the time and it more fast than the assault min. i use 3 complex kin and advance stamina boost. really useful for hacking and medic gameplay.sad i suck with shotty lol. finally biotic skill is a must i survive more with speed than hp and stilll capable of tanking damage.logi min 4 the win