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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
568
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Posted - 2013.07.04 02:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, one of the major issues in this game, when it comes to IBs and also the new player experience. Is how powerful proto suits are in comparison to miltia/standard gear right?
Now if you look at weapons in this game, you'll notice the damage increase is relatively small... its only ~10% increase tier to tier. Almost everything else is the same, with the exception of a few items which have higher clip counts or blast radius (looking at you godlock).
Anyways... one thing you can notice really fast is how much more powerful a prototype suit is. With the extra module slots a prototype suit can easily reach up to 3x the EHP of a standard suit. Three times!! That kind of power is undeniable, and the power shift turns many games into gear > skill... which CCP has said is a principle they are trying to avoid. Yes higher level gear is better, and more expensive, but should it be to the point that you can just overwhelm your opponents with shear dps and ehp... regardless of your skill vs. their skill?
So... what would be an easy way to help balance dropsuits so that proto suits are still the best but they aren't overwhelmingly more powerful?
Really I think the solution is quite simple.
Normalize the number of slots for every tier of a race/class dropsuit. This means, a standard cal logi suit could also have 5H/4L, same as the proto cal logi suit.
standard and advanced suits would still be limited by CPU/PG requirements, and proto suits will be able to fit more, easier.. as they are designed to. But you could get standard and advanced suits much closer in power to prototype suits, right away.
I really think this will help the NPE experience a lot, and youll probably find many protobears will be happy to drop down to adv gear to save some cash if they can fit a build that is relatively close in power but much cheaper to run. Over time, i suspect IB will begin to normalize to advanced gear on its own, without enforcing hard coded restrictions.
Yes some people will run standard or prototype gear anyways, but that is their freedom of choice, and they will suffer the consequences accordingly, lower suit power or high suit cost respectively.
Thoughts?
Remnant... have you ever considered going this route? It will help close the power disparity that high SP players have vs newer, lower SP players. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
568
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Posted - 2013.07.04 02:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:So all suits have the same slot layout but the difference is the amount of CPU/PG?
Exactly... high CPU/PG lets you fit more modules. You can use CPU/PG upgrades to get you close, but you will, of course never be as powerful as a proto.
You'll be much closer in power though, instead of essentially being fodder to protobears that are 2-3 times more powerful than you are in a standard suit. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
569
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Posted - 2013.07.04 03:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Artificer Ghost wrote:Uh... No. People with Core Skills, Engineering V, and Electronics V can dominate the field with a low cost. One of the main things for proto-gears is the cost of ISK and/or AUR. If they don't cost as much, what's to stop someone from buying 500 Proto-heavies? Just making a difference in CPU/PG would be OP, in a couple ways.
Oh, right! I was trying to think of the ways, and I knew there were more. Here's one. It takes LESS than 500k SP to get into Standard Medium/Light gear (Not the case for Heavies, unless you want to use ARs or anything other than a Heavy Weapon). That means that (Thanks to ISK Transfers and rich alts) someone can make a character, and INSTANTLY skill into the same-quality gear as Prototype.
Normally it'd take a couple games to make the ISK used for Skill Books.
yes core skills will make you more powerful... but this lessens the power differential quite a bit. Instead of core skills + suit power, its now just core skills that make you more powerful. The first 3 levels in engineering and electronics are fairly cheap SP wise, and would put you within 10% of people who have them maxed. You also have access to enhanced CPU/PG upgrades to help you better fit higher level modules.
Also, you can't 'instantly' become more powerful than other people. Skilling into proto modules takes 1 million SP per module. So new players will generally remain competitive with eachother, even with isk transfers.
What this means, is that people can skill into only advanced suits with 3/3 core skills can be within ~20% of the power of a protobear. Instead of protobears being about 100-150% more powerful.
You can actually 1v1 a 10 million SP + 'veteran' player with what... 3-4 million SP?
You still become more powerful over time but you can compete much quicker. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
569
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Posted - 2013.07.04 03:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Samuel Zelik wrote:I'm telling you, just try the Militia Shotgun; it works like a charm that works. There are ways to combat Protos without closing the skill gap; it's called tactics.
meh, i've used the HK4M a couple times in pubs. Its neat but you still get ripped unless you are in a good suit.
Aizen Intiki wrote:How about limiting what you can use where, just like they have in EVE. Take PROTO and higher out of Hisec, and let it rip in Lowsec and Nullsec. (Just to let you know you're not allowed to bring in most capital ships into hisec. I once saw a dred get owned because he jumped into hisec on accident. It was so funny ) Peace, Aizen
I've actually suggested that multiple times. Nullarbor already said he's not wanting to do that, as it will segregate the player base.
Artificer Ghost wrote:I could 1v1 a proto-heavy, no problem. I'm saying that for the newer players (Ones that have just downloaded the game...), it'll be a bit tough to deal with.
Also, I try not to sound like a huge arse, but this happens sometimes... Things will be OP, and things will be UP.
CCP is currently working on (Or should be working on...) a thing called "Perfect Imbalancing". This means some things are more powerful than other things, but those also have their weaknesses, and etc.
Element (Or in this case, suit/gun) A is powerful. Everyone starts using Element A then. But then, someone gets smart, and figures out a way to stop Element A, and make it obsolete. This produces Element B. Same scenario. Element C is created, then Element D, and so on, until Z. At which point, Element A becomes viable again.
This will get players to thing about the game. An example is the original StarCraft (I think it was called) game. The devs made everything perfectly BALANCED, so then the only way to win above all others was using routines that were calculated by the players. Within a short amount of time, it became less about "How can I beat this guy?" and more about "Who can execute this routine faster and/or more effectively?"
Well that's cause heavies are in a really bad spot atm. How about proto cal logis.. how often do you come out on top with a standard suit? I know I rip through std gear peeps in my proto cal logi fit and i'm not really that skilled at FPS games. Its completely power disparity that keeps me on top.
However, put me in PC against proto assaults, and I can barely hold my own. As in a 1v1 situation assault suits are quite a bit more powerful than logi suits. but you don't see this in pubs cause its mostly proto vs not proto power disparity that wins. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
569
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Posted - 2013.07.04 03:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
you guys must be exceptions to the rule then... cause I don't even think twice about a militia suit and std suits have almost never given me trouble.
Only really good players in adv suits cause me to think twice.
The only time I die anymore is LAVs or in a 3+ v 1 situation. I can pretty much walk over anyone 1v1 unless they are really skilled or also in full proto gear. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
569
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Posted - 2013.07.04 03:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:This sounds scary.
Please no.
Then I'd fit all STD gear in my slots and still be weak compared to Proto gear.
The strength of proto gear is fine.
It's the match up between newberries with MIL gear versus Protopacks
Put selectable filters on the gear the player wants to use and fight against.
Let the players choose what level of gear they want to fight
What sounds scary about it?
std suit fitting all standard modules.. sounds right to me? You'd be more powerful than you are now (and closer to the power of a proto build)... and yes proto will still be more powerful.. like it was designed to be.
Nullarbor has already said he won't be designing matchmaking to segregate the player base. So that idea is out the window. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
569
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Posted - 2013.07.04 03:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Artificer Ghost wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:you guys must be exceptions to the rule then... I'm an exception to EVERY rule. Jk. But seriously, 90% of C-Logi's are just yapping poodles waiting to be shot. You might be an exception, but 10% is a pretty small number. :P Plus, I've never played with you, so you know. Skill levels are all guesses here. :)
Sure... but still all i'm suggesting is closing the hard power disparity between suit levels. So this game becomes more about skill and less about gear.
It would also help fix wierd issues where you end up with things like amarr logis only having a sidearm at the proto level.. which makes no sense to me.
Proto modules are crazy expensive... std and adv suits would still be unable to create a fitting like a proto suit.. but it would drastically help the NPE in this game.
Esp when you consistently see posts on these forums about new players leaving the academy and getting roflstomped by proto geared players.
plus.. who doesn't love more modules? I love the new combinations I can make with the 9 slots cal logis have... its depressing running adv suits and losing so many slots... I can't even imagine running standard gear anymore.. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
572
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Posted - 2013.07.04 05:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:So the fellow who has maxed all core skills, all CPU reducing skills, and is basically a proto suit with only a 11th of the price.
If being able to field 11 proto strength suits and make a good profit doesn't scare you, you have balls of tritanium.
adv suit... even with maxed core skills is not 'basically a proto' CPU/PG would hinder them more than you think.
Hell I have to use a CPU upgrade on my proto suit now and I still can't fit all complex.. in an advanced suit you would be hindered even more.
Also... newer players could get within 10% of that same suit by getting lvl 3 in those same core skills... which is only weapon operation, electronics, and engineering. nothing else (sans fitting optimization, which is generally negligible) gives you CPU/PG reduction.
and yes... I think that is exactly right.. adv suits become the new IB standard... and new players are like "damn adv suits how can I compete? Oh I only need like 2 months of SP to get level 3 in everything..."
instead of "damn proto suits how can I compete? I need 5-6 months of getting stomped before I can level 5 in everything.."
Doesn't sound scary to me at all.
Proto suits will still be better, but only marginally. Just like weapons are... proto is better... but only by ~10% for most weapons.
Imagine if prototype weapons were 3x the damage of standard weapons... now THAT is a scary thought.. and yet you think prototype suits should have 3x EHP and that is perfectly acceptable? |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
573
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Posted - 2013.07.04 13:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aizen Intiki wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Samuel Zelik wrote:I'm telling you, just try the Militia Shotgun; it works like a charm that works. There are ways to combat Protos without closing the skill gap; it's called tactics. meh, i've used the HK4M a couple times in pubs. Its neat but you still get ripped unless you are in a good suit. Aizen Intiki wrote:How about limiting what you can use where, just like they have in EVE. Take PROTO and higher out of Hisec, and let it rip in Lowsec and Nullsec. (Just to let you know you're not allowed to bring in most capital ships into hisec. I once saw a dred get owned because he jumped into hisec on accident. It was so funny ) Peace, Aizen I've actually suggested that multiple times. Nullarbor already said he's not wanting to do that, as it will segregate the player base. No it wouldn't, it just would allow proto gear in Hisec, everyone would still be allowed in Hisec
Hey I'm just stating what nullarbor said.
but honestly, I think this idea is much better. instead of nerfing proto, or removing gear from matchmaking... why not just buff std and adv gear?
that is literally all this does, is provide a massive buff to standard gear and a slight buff to adv gear. That way new players at least feel like they can compete against proto geared players while still having better suits to look forward too.
Players with more sp wont feel the need to to rock proto gear in pubs anymore either, as they can fit an adv suit pretty damn well too since the powerful differential isnt so drastic.
plus I still think more slots = more fun. why not make this game more fun sooner?
I'm not gonna lie... im shocked there is opposition to this idea at all... the only people who shouldn't want to see this are protobears afraid of losing their overwhelming power crutch on the battlefield. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
574
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Posted - 2013.07.04 13:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
this isn't nerfing proto gear at all.. its not even touching it. Its just making it a little easier on the new guys to catch up.
PG/CPU is a huge limiter, and it will keep fittings in check, still giving proto suits quite a bit more power than their std/advanced counterparts, while removing the compounding advantage of higher PG/CPU and additional slots.
Even you have to admit there is a crazy amount of power disparity between proto and non-proto gear, which I can't imagine was intended. Especially when you look at the relatively small power disparity between weapon variants.
you say you're 'not a proto bear' but you want to make sure that your std and adv scout suits remain much much weaker than your proto suit?
Or are you worried that your proto scout suit wont be able to compete against the newly buffed advanced medium frames? If so.. thats a balance issue between light and medium frames that needs to be addressed separately, and isn't related to this at all. |
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