When you change something, you probably want that change tested, and receive feedback on that change, right?

This is why stealth buffs or nerfs make your life harder. Not many people neurotically check the damage and other stats of weapons every time they log on.

You need to tell us when a change has been made so we can give feedback on that change. just going in and tweaking the stats on a weapon does nothing if people don't know if they should go test a weapon to see if its effective.

Its also not just about making your job easier, its about not insulting your playerbase too. People get offended and pissed off when you just go and change their weapon on them.


Just make a thread that lists the changes you made and update it once a week. it's not too much to ask and it will really help the balancing process by letting your players actually test the damn changes properly.

The feedback they're looking for is, generally, not forum feedback. Forum feedback is mostly noise TBH.

The feedback they are looking for is data mined from the server logs. Players are providing this feedback regardless if they are aware of something or not.

They're idiotic for doing it that way then.

Servers can't tell you if something is fun or not. It's a machine, it has no opinion on the game that it runs. The playerbase does.
You don't balance a game based on some kind of OCD-spike from seeing 1 = 1.

You weigh opinions and arguments, and modify your numbers based on what feedback the people give, to strike a balance between them. Just like with the assault rifle, which is working wonderfully.
I just specced back into sniping, and not even a week goes by and it's already as weak as it was in Chromosome.

idgaf if the server says it's balanced. the player experience is that it's not.

First off, you can tell if it's fun or not simply by watching the numbers - people gravitate away from the not fun. Also, you'll note, that I said the forums are mostly noise, which they are, but not entirely noise.

Believe it or not, data mining is far more accurate than weighing the opinions of a bunch of forum warriors. Incidentally, the AR, as you mentioned it, is still OP and EZ mode. Also, sniping has been stronger in Chromosome than in Uprising, so I'm not sure about your point here either.

Player experiences, by definition, are subjective and inaccurate, and vary from player to player. Server numbers are not. Also forumites are a minority, and often have axes to grind.

(See my point)

No. You CANNOT tell if its fun or not, simply by watching the numbers.
Sniping isn't fun for me anymore. I do it, because I'm fkin stuck with where my SP is, and I'm going to be stuck here for a VERY long time until enough SP trickles in.
So following that logic then, their numbers are already inaccurate because folks like myself can't move as freely as we need to.
In that case, a subjective opinion will cut to the chase, and zoom in on A point, much faster than server numbers would.

It's irrational to be so dependent on the "rational" to make a decision about what's fun. You figure that's why they broke the laser rifle? Or released the plasma cannon in its current iteration? (Or took 10 years to get a reasonable balance in EVE?)

Server numbers should only be used to corroborate feedback from the playerbase. Not used IN-PLACE OF the playerbase. One of the most flawed systems I've ever heard. No wonder it's taking forever to get anything done right.

Pointless even talking about this. Not like it's going help anything.

Ah, but you can. You see not everyone who previously sniped will continue to do so if it isn't fun for them. Some may, like you, but some will not. Also, less people will spec into it, and people will spec out of it. So, you most certainly can tell if something is fun by the numbers.

You've got it backwards actually, forum posts should only be used to corroborate server numbers.

As far as the laser rifle per se, I can't say, but for the MD I can tell you that it was nerfed precisely because CCP didn't pay attention to their server numbers, and instead went with an emotional decision based on their internal office playing. This is bad, even when it's the devs making the decisions. The stats aren't all that matter, but they're the bulk of what matter.

Just to back this logical argument up all the way. It's the numbers on the servers that pay the bills as well. Your, or my, personal experiences do not. Only when our collective experiences add up to something measurable do they count for much.


Having said all this. I, of course, would like better communication from CCP on the changes. But don't kid yourself, your "personal experience" doesn't add up to much.

The feedback they're looking for is, generally, not forum feedback. Forum feedback is mostly noise TBH.

The feedback they are looking for is data mined from the server logs. Players are providing this feedback regardless if they are aware of something or not.

1. We aren't just noise. The people who give enough of a **** to post these things are the players that are going to eb payhing CCPs paycheck so ignoring our input is just stupid.

2. And just how will they get these numbers if no one specs into a weapon that was previously unusable? and how many players will (or have) they lost dues to people getting frustrated and quitting because they "just suck now" due to a stealth nerf to the weapon they've sank their SP into? people should have access to that info if they are curious enough to look.

First off, we actually have to be able to "spec out" of something for those numbers to happen. Again, those numbers do not tell if something is fun, people do. Citing measurable variables does NOT. All it says are, "people are speccing out of this, speccing into that, etc." To conclude something is "fun" based on that data is the flaw in itself, because DATA is indifferent and can be viewed from countless angles.

Example: We have around 300 million Americans. 2 million of them like doing X activity. What do you conclude from that? Nothing. Only someone with an agenda would say,
"This data shows that X activity is not popular amongst Americans?" Why? because a majority of the 300 million aren't doing X activity.
Same would be for another person that says,
"This data shows that X activity is popular amongst Americans?" Why? Because 2 million are doing X activity.

Data goes either way.
So what do you do? You don't draw abstract conclusions like "X activity is/isn't fun." based on that data.

You ask people directly, "Why are you, or are you NOT doing X activity?" Then based on THAT data (because yes an opinion IS data, no matter how biased or irrational you think it is) you draw conclusions and take appropriate action.

Player Feedback > Server Data (not the other way around) when it comes to answering a question like 'is this fun?'

Ah, but you can. You see not everyone who previously sniped will continue to do so if it isn't fun for them. Some may, like you, but some will not. Also, less people will spec into it, and people will spec out of it. So, you most certainly can tell if something is fun by the numbers..

And how many have just quit because things just randomly stopped being fun?

It should also be noted that the AR isn't a fun gun. I have never seen a single person say "oh man, this AR is so cool. I have so much fun using it."

Its just effective. Thats it.

Following the numbers as you suggest and keeping the game in such a state that the AR is the most commonly used weapon still will do nothing but drive the fun out.

This game is about being fun. CCP needs our input to find out where the fun is. waiting for people to get pissed and give up on their favorite weapon is ******* stupid and an insult to their players (you know, the person who pays them?) and they NEED our input.

We need yo know if they are trying to change the balance of a gun so we can help them get those server numbers.

You have it backwards. CCP should be using those numbers to corroborate our statements. They don't get paid by their servers.

Again, to be clear, this doesn't justify them not telling us what is going on. I'm only saying this so you understand that the forums are a chaotic, contradictory place, and as such, aren't a very good place to really see what's going on with the game.

It is true that the forums are often a contradictory place as people don't always have the same opinion.

But they are a good place to see whats going on with the game. I disagree with you there. you have to lean back and read the trends, though. Look at who posts what. There are goodposters and there are shitposters. it becomes pretty obvious who is what when you pay attention to who says what.

the majority of the people who post in feedback/requests are good posters who want to see this become a fun balanced game. I'm sure CCP is able to use what seems to be a cess pool like these forums as some actual useable data.

I agree with this mostly, except to say that the trends are much easier to see in the data. CCP doesn't have time to figure out who the good posters or the bad posters are, or to try to figure out if they're just championing their own little niche, or trying to support a robust game. Only the data are impartial.

Again, I'm sure they use the forums to some extent. My only point is that it's a secondary consideration. That doesn't mean that our voices aren't heard, only that we aren't all the special snowflakes that we think we are, and CCP doesn't have time to weed through that unless there's a reason - like an anomaly in the data.

You "spec out" of something by speccing into something else.

Actually, your 2 million example shows that compared to other activities, your 2 million activity isn't very popular. See, with Dust, the Devs know how many weapons they've created (as an example), so if a weapon is only used by 1% of the player base, then it is definitely "not popular" and, therefore, should be looked at. By the same token, if 90% of the players use it, then it should again be looked at, but this time for a little nerfing most likely.


Only after you see an anomaly in the data do you look at why people aren't, or are, using something irregularly.

They don't pull a codemonkey off the line to do their turn at forum maintenance. Hell, they even hired someone to be the community rep, and established the CPM to help digest all this stuff.

I'm not saying the reaction of everybody on this forum is the be-all-end-all, but it's very important. Not just a secondary concern only to be checked if the numbers do something unexpected. We are the reason why the numbers are there and we are the reason they are going to be balancing things.

there is no reason for CCP to relegate the passionate opinions here as a secondary issue.

In any case, how will they get the correct server numbers if they don't let us know what has changed so we can try it again?


They need to give us weekly updates on nerfs/buffs for too many reasons.

The feedback they're looking for is, generally, not forum feedback. Forum feedback is mostly noise TBH.

The feedback they are looking for is data mined from the server logs. Players are providing this feedback regardless if they are aware of something or not.

more QQ's about where people spent their SP, looks like you should have taken CCP's advice and been careful this time...

more QQ's about where people spent their SP, looks like you should have taken CCP's advice and been careful this time...

All they need is a stickied thread with changes (only they post in the thread). Get an assistant / intern / pr to post the info.

And from time to time they can pop into the "noisy" threads and state why things are so or need more refining.

I really dont understand why you guys are arguing either or when they should be doing both.

All they need is a stickied thread with changes (only they post in the thread). Get an assistant / intern / pr to post the info.

And from time to time they can pop into the "noisy" threads and state why things are so or need more refining.

I really dont understand why you guys are arguing either or when they should be doing both.

So Buster, how fun was the MD nerf for you?