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Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
23
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Posted - 2013.07.02 20:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Terra Thesis wrote:Doyle Reese wrote:Okay, lets go with the other stats, Armor tanking reduces your overall speed, making your strafe not as effective. Armor reduces your ability to increase your sprint speed as they both use the same slot. Shield tanks are sacrificing damage mods, but they can also be faster, run longer, walk stealthier and hack faster. Now tell me which is better That's because you're still trying to use armor plates to get max EHP. That's the shield niche. Use reps and then check the numbers again. And correction - shield tanks sacrifice damage mods for speed OR endurance OR stealth (lol) OR hack speed (again, lol). In reality, they usually fit none of those. Reps won't keep you alive through any actual fight. You won't regen HP fast enough to beat the increased buffer of a shield suit with extenders even with damage mods without a logi glued to you. So unless your suggestion is for it to take 2 players to make 1 capable armor character it doesn't work. Not to mention this makes it easier to be alpha'd by locus grenades and flaylocks making regen irrelevant. |
Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
23
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 20:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Terra Thesis wrote:Promethius Franklin wrote:Reps won't keep you alive through any actual fight. You won't regen HP fast enough to beat the increased buffer of a shield suit with extenders even with damage mods without a logi glued to you. So unless your suggestion is for it to take 2 players to make 1 capable armor character it doesn't work. Not to mention this makes it easier to be alpha'd by locus grenades and flaylocks making regen irrelevant. Your theory is true assuming two people meet up face to face and stand still, holding down their triggers until one person falls down. That's pretty much brawling and the type of combat Caldari shields are for. If you like that playstyle, you'll find Caldari better suited to it. That's okay, different races are suited to different things. If all the races were the same, it'd be pointless to have four different races. Wait, so you are suggesting that the race with a tank that leaves more room for movement mods is meant to brawl while the race which can't fit them but can fit damage mods is meant to sneak around and flank? This makes sense to you? |
Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
24
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Posted - 2013.07.02 21:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Terra Thesis wrote:Promethius Franklin wrote:Edit: Also, since this is the "regen" tanking style, why is my HP/s with 4 complex mods on an assault gk.0 the same as the base shield regen on a ck.0 without even going into the fact that the ck.0 can actually fit buffer as well or further enhance their regen? Because like many people other people, for whatever reason, you disregard the fact that armor suits get almost the same base regen as a "shield" suit (0 during combat, 20-25 out of combat). My armor reps are on top of shield regen that all other suits have. Shield suits don't have little to no armor regen. In combat - armor suits are continuously repping, shield suits aren't. Out of combat, shield suits are regenning your EHP, but armor suits are regenning AND repping, mitigating combat damage twice as fast. I'm not ignoring anything, I'm counting my 150 shield HP as what it is. A miniscule buffer which will deplete in much less time than my primary tank and likely won't regen when it matters.
So during the 10s depleted delay, which I'm more likely to encounter as I have less shields, my regen is only 25hp/s. This is less than 1 round from any AR, less than 2 from SMG's or 3 from HMG's. My regen is cancelled out by any weapon in under 0.12 seconds and each has the DPS to kill a no buffer gk.0 in under ~1.1s. By the time you hit the 2s mark you are dead with 8s to go before your shield regen kicks in.
Damage projection is at a level where current amounts of regen are pointless without high mobility, which armor tanks still cannot invest in. Meanwhile shield tanks can invest in regen, buffer, and mobility at the same time to enhance the ability to skirmish, which is what you say armor is for.
This underscores the fact that regen isn't an encounter survivability tool, it a means to recover between encounters. Shield can do survivability better and recovery better while armor, as you say it should be used, doesn't last long enough for the regen to be an asset under fire. |
Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
26
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Posted - 2013.07.02 22:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Terra Thesis wrote:Yes, you mitigate about 0.12 seconds of DPS over 1 second, assuming two people standing in front of each other with no cover unloading their weapons. If it was significantly higher than that, everyone would run out of ammo before anyone died. Your math assumes you're going to stand in the line of fire against an ck.0, holding down the trigger until someone drops. I'm not claiming reps will allow you to stand in front of a AR and just eat it. No, this isn't just standing out in the open firing at each other. These are actual likely scenarios including low damage, high ROF weapons. It becones worse with explosives or higher damage weapons. You're literraly coming to the point of saying I should be expected as an armor tanker to always maintain a 10 to 1 ratio of regen time vs combat time without enhanced mobility. You are literally telling us to not take damage.
And funny thing is that you overlook the fact that shield tankers needn't have these same demands. Yet they can do the same things you say armor tanker should, only better due to enhancing mobility through modules, enhancing buffer to allow greater survival under fire, and faster regen and delay reduction to get back into the action and being a useable team asset faster.
Terra Thesis wrote:When I say skirmish style combat, I mean that you're not staying in the line of fire. You take shots when you're on their flank and you cover or reposition when they're sending bullets your way. You recover faster between encounters, because you have shield regen as well as armor regen, whereas a shield user only has shield regen. A shield user can absorb more lead upfront, but over a sustained period of time, you can stay in the action more. See above. Your conclusion still works better for shield since you can better buff the playstyle and furthermore if you are doing it well you aren't getting to the point of needing the armor regen as you've used positioning to kill the enemy without depleting your buffer enhanced shields.
Terra Thesis wrote:In my experience, gallente has plenty of mobility - all you need to do is to duck into cover before you die. Only minmatar goes faster. There aren't a lot of things that can one-shot even a base medium frame (mostly headshots and high level sniper rifles). They have the same speed as the Caldari and the Min are shield tankers. The Amarr are the only ones that the Gallente beat. As far as tactics the issue is that they are the same ones shield tankers can use and they can make superior use of them. Yes, your strategies make armor tanking potentially more workable, when you have a positional advantage, but they still work better with shields, which also can be fit to have an easier time getting that positional advantage.
You accused me at one point of ignoring factors, you seem determined to do the same here. |
Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
28
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jimbo1337 wrote:Can we please stop with the crying? I am an armor tanker and I have never ONCE thought that a single dropsuit had too much shield for me to handle. Slow movement speed...wah wah wah. Cry me a river. All I care about is being able to jump over one of those stupid yellow railings.
Oh no...he strafes faster than me. Sounds like an excuse that you can't aim...If your movement is slow, then call in a LAV for TRANSPORT instead of using it to run people over. There is a thought! Congratulations? Not sure what to say other than pointing out the irony of whining about whining. |
Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
28
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Terra Thesis wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I am responding to your posts in general, and perhaps particularly the earlier post. Remote armour repairers are one of the best things about armour - if actually attempting to increase your HP and/or using rep tools prevents you from skirmishing, why do you believe it's about skirmishing? Because local reps don't require multiple players to coordinate, and don't cause your team to lose a gun off the field, and in general is a lot easier to make work (in my opinion). No you are right, they just require you do do a lot of things that you don't otherwise have to apparently while not giving you an advantage over those same individuals should they chose to adopt the same playstyle.
Edit: In addition to obsoleting the vast majority of armor mods. |
Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
28
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 23:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Terra Thesis wrote:Yes, I'm saying reps work better in low DPS scenarios. The purpose of playing a skirmish style is to minimize incoming DPS by taking cover frequently and dragging out the combat window. This is literally saying you must be the better player in order for this to work. At first that may sound reasonable, but not when looking at equal players.The armor player always has to maintain the positional advantage to be an asset in battle. The shield player running buffer on the other had can have a higher flexibility of engagement and still be effective if things don't go as intended. The shield player has an easier time of fitting for mobility allowing him to do what the armor player has to do faster and more reliably. I'm not saying it can't be made to work, I'm saying you're still getting the short end of the stick.
Terra Thesis wrote:The key here is that shield users DON'T have better regen. You're forgetting again that armor dropsuits have a significant shield system as a baseline. Shield suits have slightly better regen if you only look at the shield system, but looking at the overall dropsuit, armor suits configured for reps have better overall regen. This means a shield suit can try to play the skirmish style, but they will be outlasted. It's not a hard counter by any means, but the advantage is definitely on the side of the suit that can rep up twice as fast. That baseline shield system is irrelevant as in the line of fire; regen is too slow to beat buffer. The period afterward in the short term only creates a a small niche advantage which is easily negated by a shield user fitting for regen. It can be done, but it usually isn't because that extra HP could be the difference between life and death when someone gets the drop on you, and you still have a good base regen in your primary layer. This combined with the relative difficulty of always being the hunter and never the hunted makes the style rather niche and high skill. 2 things that define something that isn't ballanced.
Terra Thesis wrote:Minmatar assault are shields, but logi is armor. Amarr suits are pretty evenly balanced between both systems. Minmatar's speed works well as a shield skirmish, but they don't have the EHP of the Caldari that everyone is comparing against. That's why people choose Caldari over Minmatar for stand-up brawling. Minmatar has less base HP than a Gallente suit. In my opinion, Minmatar and Gallente work the same way, fast and The Minmatar assault has all the other advantages allotted by shield based fitting, and since the can fit buffer they can have HP as well over a Gallente assault in the configuration you suggest. But the Gallente are not as fast as the Minmatar, the min can get to where they need to be faster and out potentially out of harms way sooner. The Gallente, on the other hand, have the speed of the Caldari. This is what makes the Caldari a good comparison for a mobility based role.
Terra Thesis wrote:You're absolutely right about mobility and the Cardiac Regulator (I hope you're not talking about the Kincat, I don't think that mod is useful for anyone except knifers). I am constantly running out of stam on my Gallente. Although, I think I should just train up for em and sacrifice that last repper - it's always a ***** to fit anyways. I think I still have a point, but it does put a dent in my numbers. The point here is that saying a niche combat scenario can be used, one which doesn't convey combat advantages in that scenario, and that the majority of the associated mods should be ignored, is not a good justification for saying the 2 systems are balanced. In fact it's evidence of the contrary. |
Promethius Franklin
DUST University Ivy League
28
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 23:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Terra Thesis wrote:You know what? I'm not here to argue that Gallente is OP or UP compared to Caldari or anything else. I certainly have no problem if you buff the hell out of Gallente or armor. I only came here to say that I felt Gallente currently played much better if you treated it as a skirmishy armor rep rather than an slow as balls EHP mini tank, and I'd rather any balance to reflect this difference in playstyle. Anything else I've said, I apologize and please allow me to retract. Skirmishy is the focus of the minmatar, with it's lack of emphasis on tank and more on mobility. The goal of this kind of play is to avoid damage, not repair it. On the other hand we still have a Gallente suit witch falls behind counterparts for any application when armor tanked that doesn't have a logi glued to you for want of a decent full set of armor mods. |
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