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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
1680
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 21:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Its this player's opinion that 3,109,200 SP in two skills that are mandatory is a bit excessive. Reducing them from x5 to x3, more in line with other Dropsuit Upgrades skills, would make for ease of access into better fittings and reduce unecessary grind to be able to fit better gear on dropsuits.
By reducing this, you allow players an excess of 1,243,680 SP that could be spent elsewhere.
Discuss. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
41
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Posted - 2013.06.29 21:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Can I get this for Systems Hacking as well? |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
1392
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 21:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'm really not sure why they were increased from 1x skills to 5x skills. 5 times the amount of SP investment for the same effect is a huge SP sink, especially for core skills which everyone basically needs to have. |
KOBLAKA1
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
127
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Posted - 2013.06.29 22:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
i brought this up and peeps were like it makes sense cuz it such a powerful skill... In Vehicle upgrades its a 3x skill, in terms of progression these should be after the things they unlock by their multiplier which is wrong. +1 |
Funkmaster Whale
0uter.Heaven League of Infamy
25
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Posted - 2013.06.29 23:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP has ready addressed this. The simple fact is that these skills justify the time investment because they are by far the most useful as far as core skills, so maxing both should be sorta an achievement. I think it makes sense and am fine with how it is. |
Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
115
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Posted - 2013.06.29 23:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
I agree that they are hugely beneficial core skills but *5 is a lot of SP to invest... it seems to be the way CCP is going these days. *3 would be much more reasonable.
Given what this allows you to do by adding better modules to cheaper fittings though, I wouldn't want it to go any lower.
It would be nice if there was some way to scale the cost of these percentage-based skills to somehow depend on the benefit received. I don't get much benefit from 5% CPU added onto the base CPU of standard scout suit, but at the same time, these skills are much more needed for me to cram stuff into my scout fits.
The Assault/Logi/Heavies get much more benefit as the % is applied to higher base stats (CPU-wise, anyway) and yet, ironically, the skills are needed less.
*3 would really make this much more bearable. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
1701
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Posted - 2013.07.01 00:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote:CCP has ready addressed this. The simple fact is that these skills justify the time investment because they are by far the most useful as far as core skills, so maxing both should be sorta an achievement. I think it makes sense and am fine with how it is.
For both skills its 3,000,000+ SP. To get a Specialized dropsuit skill, like Logistics, to five, its 2,487,680. So getting both of those skills to five is basically getting a whole new specialization... Not exactly fun trying to grind up just so your fitting might not be as tight, if workable at all. |
Wombat in combat
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
54
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Posted - 2013.07.01 01:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote:The simple fact is that these skills justify the time investment because they are by far the most useful as far as core skills, so maxing both should be sorta an achievement. I think it makes sense and am fine with how it is. I agree. I just hit Dropsuit Engineering lvl 5 the other day and it indeed felt like an achievement. It also opened up for bunch of new fittings. I'd rather lower the multipliers on the dropsuits than core skills such as those because they're so useful in all dropsuit fittings.
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Cody Sietz
Tritan's Onslaught RISE of LEGION
376
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Posted - 2013.07.05 16:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yeah, I wish I could do more then just plus 1 this thread. |
Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
121
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Posted - 2013.07.05 16:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
These skills are rank 1 in Eve, precisely because they are so basic and fundamental to everything. Also fittings skills are way less fun than other skills because you don't get anything tangible, they just help you use the toys you have already better. Furthermore, they let you make better use of lower-tier suits. With all the different weapons and such out there, as well as vehicle training, I think these should definitely have their SP needs reduced.
Furthermore in Eve, most ships are balanced around the average pilot having these skills at 5 because they're a short and fundamental train. You often get the case where you can't fit something properly without them. |
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
584
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Posted - 2013.07.05 16:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
imho. a much better way of doing is if they were core skills specific to each suit.
so... Caldari Logisitics Dropsuit Operation (x8), Caldari Logistics Dropsuit Engineering (x1), Caldari Logisitcs Dropsuit Electronics (x1)
so new players can catch up easier and veteran players that start branching out will need to play the x1 cost repeatedly.
I also feel this same kind of passive needs to come to vehicles as well... maybe as a (x2) since vehicles are usually more expensive than dropsuits.
The current dropsuit elec/eng skills would then drop to (x2) and be used solely to unlock CPU/PG upgrade modules... exactly like they were in chromosome. |
Daxxis KANNAH
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
141
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Posted - 2013.07.05 16:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Matticus Monk wrote:I agree that they are hugely beneficial core skills but *5 is a lot of SP to invest... it seems to be the way CCP is going these days. *3 would be much more reasonable.
Given what this allows you to do by adding better modules to cheaper fittings though, I wouldn't want it to go any lower.
It would be nice if there was some way to scale the cost of these percentage-based skills to somehow depend on the benefit received. I don't get much benefit from 5% CPU added onto the base CPU of standard scout suit, but at the same time, these skills are much more needed for me to cram stuff into my scout fits.
The Assault/Logi/Heavies get much more benefit as the % is applied to higher base stats (CPU-wise, anyway) and yet, ironically, the skills are needed less.
*3 would really make this much more bearable.
Gave you a +1 for your analysis
My poor poor scouts - everywhere we turn a slight. |
Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
127
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Posted - 2013.07.05 17:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:imho. a much better way of doing is if they were core skills specific to each suit.
so... Caldari Logisitics Dropsuit Operation (x8), Caldari Logistics Dropsuit Engineering (x1), Caldari Logisitcs Dropsuit Electronics (x1)
NO NO NO NO NO NO |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
1805
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 18:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:imho. a much better way of doing is if they were core skills specific to each suit.
so... Caldari Logisitics Dropsuit Operation (x8), Caldari Logistics Dropsuit Engineering (x1), Caldari Logisitcs Dropsuit Electronics (x1)
so new players can catch up easier and veteran players that start branching out will need to play the x1 cost repeatedly.
I also feel this same kind of passive needs to come to vehicles as well... maybe as a (x2) since vehicles are usually more expensive than dropsuits.
The current dropsuit elec/eng skills would then drop to (x2) and be used solely to unlock CPU/PG upgrade modules... exactly like they were in chromosome.
Bad idea, imo. Theres no reason to restrict them to specializations and it only causemore clamor for respecs when players realize they may have wasted SP into a suit they didnt want, more so than now. It would also be relative to just that suit, so the benefits wouldnt help them as a new player in trying out different things.
Engineering and electronics provides a substantial edge and if a new player trains both its possible to outfita Standard BPO suit (like the Dragonfly series) with Advanced gear. That helps reduce ISK costs and provides them some stability. Better to be frustrated tryingto roll against veterans than to be frustrated and broke. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
588
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 20:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:imho. a much better way of doing is if they were core skills specific to each suit.
so... Caldari Logisitics Dropsuit Operation (x8), Caldari Logistics Dropsuit Engineering (x1), Caldari Logisitcs Dropsuit Electronics (x1)
so new players can catch up easier and veteran players that start branching out will need to play the x1 cost repeatedly.
I also feel this same kind of passive needs to come to vehicles as well... maybe as a (x2) since vehicles are usually more expensive than dropsuits.
The current dropsuit elec/eng skills would then drop to (x2) and be used solely to unlock CPU/PG upgrade modules... exactly like they were in chromosome. Bad idea, imo. Theres no reason to restrict them to specializations and it only causemore clamor for respecs when players realize they may have wasted SP into a suit they didnt want, more so than now. It would also be relative to just that suit, so the benefits wouldnt help them as a new player in trying out different things. Engineering and electronics provides a substantial edge and if a new player trains both its possible to outfita Standard BPO suit (like the Dragonfly series) with Advanced gear. That helps reduce ISK costs and provides them some stability. Better to be frustrated tryingto roll against veterans than to be frustrated and broke.
Its the only solution I could see them going for. And you would need to max out 5 suits before it caught up with the current cost of these skills.
They'll never drop them from x5 as it... too powerful of a skill when it applies globally to every suit.
Not many people will be running more than maybe 2 suits for a long time... and it gives you the flexibility to decide how deep into a dropsuit you really want to go. Also... multiple x1s are a lot easier to work on than a single x5 (imo at least, I hate having to save 2 weeks of SP on a single skill).
You could do some cool things with it too... like.. for example excluding the bonus from basic suits, and buffing basic suits to have ~115% of their current CPU/PG. This leaves basic suits as a generic suit to easily spec into for those who don't want to push into tech 2, while offering deep specialization options of those who want to commit into tech 2 of a specific race/frame and get advantages over basic frames at the cost of substantial SP.
They won't just lower it unfortunately... if they had any intention of doing so I think they would have done it at the same time they lowered the dropsuit SP modifiers. |
Kain Spero
Internal Error. League of Infamy
1777
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 21:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Honestly, just because a skill is useful doesn't mean it has to be a huge SP sink. |
Sardonk Eternia
Multnomah Interstellar Holdings Inc.
110
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 22:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
They aren't mandatory and they are extremely powerful skills. I think x5 is perfect for them. All I need now is to max out my fitting skill for scrambler rifles. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
1809
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 22:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:imho. a much better way of doing is if they were core skills specific to each suit.
so... Caldari Logisitics Dropsuit Operation (x8), Caldari Logistics Dropsuit Engineering (x1), Caldari Logisitcs Dropsuit Electronics (x1)
so new players can catch up easier and veteran players that start branching out will need to play the x1 cost repeatedly.
I also feel this same kind of passive needs to come to vehicles as well... maybe as a (x2) since vehicles are usually more expensive than dropsuits.
The current dropsuit elec/eng skills would then drop to (x2) and be used solely to unlock CPU/PG upgrade modules... exactly like they were in chromosome. Bad idea, imo. Theres no reason to restrict them to specializations and it only causemore clamor for respecs when players realize they may have wasted SP into a suit they didnt want, more so than now. It would also be relative to just that suit, so the benefits wouldnt help them as a new player in trying out different things. Engineering and electronics provides a substantial edge and if a new player trains both its possible to outfita Standard BPO suit (like the Dragonfly series) with Advanced gear. That helps reduce ISK costs and provides them some stability. Better to be frustrated tryingto roll against veterans than to be frustrated and broke. Its the only solution I could see them going for. And you would need to max out 5 suits before it caught up with the current cost of these skills. They'll never drop them from x5 as it... too powerful of a skill when it applies globally to every suit. Not many people will be running more than maybe 2 suits for a long time... and it gives you the flexibility to decide how deep into a dropsuit you really want to go. Also... multiple x1s are a lot easier to work on than a single x5 (imo at least, I hate having to save 2 weeks of SP on a single skill). You could do some cool things with it too... like.. for example excluding the bonus from basic suits, and buffing basic suits to have ~115% of their current CPU/PG. This leaves basic suits as a generic suit to easily spec into for those who don't want to push into tech 2, while offering deep specialization options of those who want to commit into tech 2 of a specific race/frame and get advantages over basic frames at the cost of substantial SP. They won't just lower it unfortunately... if they had any intention of doing so I think they would have done it at the same time they lowered the dropsuit SP modifiers.
Perhaps limit it by Frame rather than Dropsuit - thus the bonus only applies to the frame youve selected.
Kain Spero wrote:Honestly, just because a skill is useful doesn't mean it has to be a huge SP sink.
Agreed. Reducing the multiplier would actually help new players with tight fittings of basic or even advanced modules, helping them compete against Vet players without those skills. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
1813
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 07:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Anyone know the reason Dropsuit Electronics/Engineering is a x5 but Vehicke Electronics/Engineering is a x2 skill O_o |
KaTaLy5t-87
Shadow Company HQ
73
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 09:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Agreed, just the cost of going from Lvl 4 to Lvl 5 is pretty crazy, 777,300 is a lot of SP! In my case on my 1-series Caldari Assault suit the 777,300 will increase my PG by just 2 points. The cost of the skill is a lot when I am only gaining 2 PG but I need the extra PG in order to fit better mods |
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major faux-pas
Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION
35
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Posted - 2013.07.06 11:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
KaTaLy5t-87 wrote:Agreed, just the cost of going from Lvl 4 to Lvl 5 is pretty crazy, 777,300 is a lot of SP! In my case on my 1-series Caldari Assault suit the 777,300 will increase my PG by just 2 points. The cost of the skill is a lot when I am only gaining 2 PG but I need the extra PG in order to fit better mods
No ! Leccy 5 is the last tier, top end, it shoulnt turn you into a freak, just give you the edge. The MAIN point is: Reducing the electronics multiplier would affect too much of game balance as it is central.
Leave these central aspects as is, and address the peripheral imbalances like peashooting flaylocks with insane accuraccy and damage (for such a tiny tube). a 10% risk of misfire and blow up in users hands would be interesting. Making it a fun weapon in pub matches but less favored and annoying in pc.
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I-Shayz-I
ZionTCD
369
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 11:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
I think it's worth it.
I'm saving up 777k for level 5 circuitry with the 3x sp week.
As a logi that 5% means a lot, especially when I run basic equipment already since I use up so much cpu/pg for modules. another 20 cpu can let me use all of my prototype items alongside all 4 equipment slots. Right now I'm limited to the equipment I bring with me because of the CPU cost of my weapon, and I already have light weapon up at 4 and fitting optimization at 4 as well.
The only skill that will give me enough cpu for sp cost is this one.
Not only that, but my heavy fitting needs some more cpu as well XD |
Heinrich Jagerblitzen
D3LTA FORC3 Inver Brass
476
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 10:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Its this player's opinion that 3,109,200 SP in two skills that are mandatory is a bit excessive. Reducing them from x5 to x3, more in line with other Dropsuit Upgrades skills, would make for ease of access into better fittings and reduce unecessary grind to be able to fit better gear on dropsuits.
By reducing this, you allow players an excess of 1,243,680 SP that could be spent elsewhere.
Discuss.
I don't mind skill sinks in the right places, but I'm with Aeon in that I don't like some of the deeper investments early in the curve on universally applied skills. This was why we pushed CCP to address the skill tree to begin with, because the barrier of entry to interesting fits was simply too severe in the first pass that was shown during Uprising's initial release. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
1818
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 23:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Its this player's opinion that 3,109,200 SP in two skills that are mandatory is a bit excessive. Reducing them from x5 to x3, more in line with other Dropsuit Upgrades skills, would make for ease of access into better fittings and reduce unecessary grind to be able to fit better gear on dropsuits.
By reducing this, you allow players an excess of 1,243,680 SP that could be spent elsewhere.
Discuss. I don't mind skill sinks in the right places, but I'm with Aeon in that I don't like some of the deeper investments early in the curve on universally applied skills. This was why we pushed CCP to address the skill tree to begin with, because the barrier of entry to interesting fits was simply too severe in the first pass that was shown during Uprising's initial release.
Well, its like Isaid in an earlier post - I dont understand why Electronic/Engineering for vehicles is so much less when they are technically more powerful, balance issues aside. |
Azri Sarum
BurgezzE.T.F
36
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 23:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: I don't mind skill sinks in the right places, but I'm with Aeon in that I don't like some of the deeper investments early in the curve on universally applied skills. This was why we pushed CCP to address the skill tree to begin with, because the barrier of entry to interesting fits was simply too severe in the first pass that was shown during Uprising's initial release.
This is my thought on the matter as well. Coming from EVE I know just how critical these core skills can be, and so I'm trying to focus on them early. They are one heck of a SP sink though! For a new player ( ~5M SP) dumping most of my points into core, while a good idea for the long run, leaves very little for bringing up weapons and suits as well.
Its like for new players you have the option between suits, weapons, or core, but you can only pick two... |
Munin-Frey
Fish Spotters Inc.
12
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 00:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
No. This is a core element that separates the boys from the men. Put in your time and you will see |
Eris Ernaga
Super Nerds
274
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 00:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
Everything is such a huge sp sink now a day and CCP has little to no clue what players wants. I am spending unnecessary weeks just to get extra sp for the changes sp has implemented. |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
1829
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 01:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Munin-Frey wrote:No. This is a core element that separates the boys from the men. Put in your time and you will see
I have Core Upgrades, electronics and engineering to level 5. In the end game, I still cant fit much differently than before. 777,000 SP just to move Enhanced Armor Repairer to a Complex Armor Repairer. That extra 2HP/Sec doesnt help much. There is no 'boys and men' argument, its just for the min-maxxers who arent that great in combat anyway. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
646
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 01:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Cmdr Wang wrote:[FEEDBACK] Electronics and Engineering skills for dropsuits and vehicles (being too high a progression path) from CPM feedback. Update: This is part of the skill progression change and the skills in question offer bonuses that justify their SP cost.
I will say this... I wouldn't hope for much on this front anytime soon... if ever.
but I am all for it... I need those skills badly in order to complete my proto build.. most cause I need complex CPU upgrade... but man I don't want to get them.. 777k is gonna suuuuuck |
Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy
1840
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 07:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:CCP Cmdr Wang wrote:[FEEDBACK] Electronics and Engineering skills for dropsuits and vehicles (being too high a progression path) from CPM feedback. Update: This is part of the skill progression change and the skills in question offer bonuses that justify their SP cost. I will say this... I wouldn't hope for much on this front anytime soon... if ever. but I am all for it... I need those skills badly in order to complete my proto build.. most cause I need complex CPU upgrade... but man I don't want to get them.. 777k is gonna suuuuuck
Wouldnt have that much of an issue with it if the skill for vehicles werent lower - its like the more powerful (albeit expensive) option is easier to get into. |
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