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Ghost Kaisar wrote:

Magnus Amadeuss wrote:

Jebus McKing wrote:

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:

Im going to make a satirical anti Magnus thread in F&D.

Can you guys pretend to argue with me about it so that I can show Magnus how ridiculous his method of supporting his position is?

Thats all I ask Lol

I will provide the comic humor, and/or trolliness.

It only took 17 pages but I think we are finally moving forward. Big smile

Magnus Amadeuss wrote:

But I do understand how the original is flawed now.

Oh I do though, after running the numbers, I realized the BIG problem is that scouts are just too damn good at scanning.

Caldari scout scans 3,000,000 cubic meters @ 20 dB while cloaked/firing/whatever

Amarr scout does 2.6 million @ 18 dB...

Proto flux scanner with 200m range? less than 200,000 @ 21/28 dB.

That is absolutely rediculous.

You guys turned me on to it with your constant coincerns about "permascan". The fact of the matter is that permascan now is about 15-30 times worse than it ever was before, we just don't see the warning that we are being scanned anymore.

Listen, I run an ak.0 pretty often, I KNOW how ridiculously easy it is to get all over the map (a good thing) and sneak up on people with no effort (uh....) and OHK without even a fight (horrible). I can admit that because I like every single suit. I can easily go every single match with 0-1 deaths for 14-25 kills just using a scout. That is a problem. Thats also why I don't use it all of the time, it is boring.

Stop. Stop right there.

If you are being scanned in a scout suit, you're doing it wrong. Damps and cloaks make it so that you can survive.

Hell, my Minmatar Scout NEVER goes into a fight without 2 damps and a cloak. We made scanning that way to stop brick tank scouts remember? Now you HAVE to run damps and a cloak if you don't want to be scanned.

As for the other suits? They can run damps too. They might not be able to dodge the scans of an Ak.0 with 2x precision, but then again THEY SHOULDN'T.

The MAIN problem with eWar right now is that it's binary. Detected / Invisible.

We need scan falloff. BAD. But it will never come.

Side Note: Why are you comparing a piece of equipment to a SUIT made for scanning?

One that has an 8x multiplier on it and limits your playstyle, over one that can litterally be put on any suit?

We've seen it before. If you make Handheld scanners as good (or better) than scouts, you won't see scouts (Remember the REAL perma-scan days? Every scout buy the Gal was forced out of PC). Recon is a powerful battlefield tool, and right now, scouts are the best way to get it.

Also, why are you using the flux? Go focused or go home if you want to scan scouts.

I really can't emphasize it enough man, there are HUGE gaps in your arguments. These problems range from just using the wrong tools for comparisons to just faulty meta-logic.

Please don't report me for disagreeing with you. Let's try and be civil this time.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1180	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:22:00 - [1] - Quote OH so this thread is where the scout bandwagon for my thread came from. Ok I want your opinion scoutties. Right now the volume of scan for scouts gets up to 3,000,000 cubic meters. Even at the base range of 30 meters it is a little over 112,000 cubic meters. The volume covered by the CreoDron Flux Active Scanner is 197,000 meters. Do you guys think that this is a problem? (both the 3 million cubic meter permascan or just the base scan being large than all but one scanner?) Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1184	Posted - 2014.10.17 17:59:00 - [2] - Quote mollerz wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: OH so this thread is where the scout bandwagon for my thread came from. Ok I want your opinion scoutties. Right now the volume of scan for scouts gets up to 3,000,000 cubic meters. Even at the base range of 30 meters it is a little over 112,000 cubic meters. The volume covered by the CreoDron Flux Active Scanner is 197,000 meters. Do you guys think that this is a problem? (both the 3 million cubic meter permascan or just the base scan being large than all but one scanner?) We're just going to laugh at you here. This isn't the kind of place you can waltz into and expect a clean fun conversation about your issues. You can buy a red jar and chill tho. First ones free edit: By coming in here you are official stalker status by the way. don't be creepy. Not when I get mentioned a bunch on this thread. Also this seems to be the place the CCP Rattati is listening to balancing discussions on scouts (which is like listening to Spkr4thadead on tank issues btw), and I think maybe a non--biased person would be here. Sorry if I use easily proven/disproven math though. Oh and since when did I get anyone banned? Let me just read up on this thread and see what has been going on in this circle-jerk. So no one has an opinion on permascaning though? Like you know..... always being scanned. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1184	Posted - 2014.10.17 18:13:00 - [3] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Im going to make a satirical anti Magnus thread in F&D. Can you guys pretend to argue with me about it so that I can show Magnus how ridiculous his method of supporting his position is? Thats all I ask I will provide the comic humor, and/or trolliness. It only took 17 pages but I think we are finally moving forward. Magnus Amadeuss wrote: But I do understand how the original is flawed now. Oh I do though, after running the numbers, I realized the BIG problem is that scouts are just too damn good at scanning. Caldari scout scans 3,000,000 cubic meters @ 20 dB while cloaked/firing/whatever Amarr scout does 2.6 million @ 18 dB... Proto flux scanner with 200m range? less than 200,000 @ 21/28 dB. That is absolutely rediculous. You guys turned me on to it with your constant coincerns about "permascan". The fact of the matter is that permascan now is about 15-30 times worse than it ever was before, we just don't see the warning that we are being scanned anymore. Listen, I run an ak.0 pretty often, I KNOW how ridiculously easy it is to get all over the map (a good thing) and sneak up on people with no effort (uh....) and OHK without even a fight (horrible). I can admit that because I like every single suit. I can easily go every single match with 0-1 deaths for 14-25 kills just using a scout. That is a problem. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1188	Posted - 2014.10.17 23:59:00 - [4] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Jebus McKing wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Im going to make a satirical anti Magnus thread in F&D. Can you guys pretend to argue with me about it so that I can show Magnus how ridiculous his method of supporting his position is? Thats all I ask I will provide the comic humor, and/or trolliness. It only took 17 pages but I think we are finally moving forward. Magnus Amadeuss wrote: But I do understand how the original is flawed now. Oh I do though, after running the numbers, I realized the BIG problem is that scouts are just too damn good at scanning. Caldari scout scans 3,000,000 cubic meters @ 20 dB while cloaked/firing/whatever Amarr scout does 2.6 million @ 18 dB... Proto flux scanner with 200m range? less than 200,000 @ 21/28 dB. That is absolutely rediculous. You guys turned me on to it with your constant coincerns about "permascan". The fact of the matter is that permascan now is about 15-30 times worse than it ever was before, we just don't see the warning that we are being scanned anymore. Listen, I run an ak.0 pretty often, I KNOW how ridiculously easy it is to get all over the map (a good thing) and sneak up on people with no effort (uh....) and OHK without even a fight (horrible). I can admit that because I like every single suit. I can easily go every single match with 0-1 deaths for 14-25 kills just using a scout. That is a problem. Thats also why I don't use it all of the time, it is boring. Stop. Stop right there. If you are being scanned in a scout suit, you're doing it wrong. Damps and cloaks make it so that you can survive. Hell, my Minmatar Scout NEVER goes into a fight without 2 damps and a cloak. We made scanning that way to stop brick tank scouts remember? Now you HAVE to run damps and a cloak if you don't want to be scanned. As for the other suits? They can run damps too. They might not be able to dodge the scans of an Ak.0 with 2x precision, but then again THEY SHOULDN'T. The MAIN problem with eWar right now is that it's binary. Detected / Invisible. We need scan falloff. BAD. But it will never come. Side Note: Why are you comparing a piece of equipment to a SUIT made for scanning? One that has an 8x multiplier on it and limits your playstyle, over one that can litterally be put on any suit? We've seen it before. If you make Handheld scanners as good (or better) than scouts, you won't see scouts (Remember the REAL perma-scan days? Every scout buy the Gal was forced out of PC). Recon is a powerful battlefield tool, and right now, scouts are the best way to get it. Also, why are you using the flux? Go focused or go home if you want to scan scouts. I really can't emphasize it enough man, there are HUGE gaps in your arguments. These problems range from just using the wrong tools for comparisons to just faulty meta-logic. Please don't report me for disagreeing with you. Let's try and be civil this time. Ok, I am really get sick of this report me business, wtf is that even supposed to mean? You can't get banned for disagreeing with someone. Being a huge jerk, harassing someone, stalking them throughout the forums, constantly breaking forum rules? yes... disagreeing? No. Anyway... Well, the focused covers 16,000 cubic meters, so it is just a waste of time. Unless you already know where the scout is going to be you are going to have to be extremely lucky to find it. This is of course assuming that it doesn't have 2x damps and a cloak active... then you won't see it anyway. Why would you even try to use it when you can scan a portion of the battlefield that is 162.5 times bigger, with zero effort, while cloaked or SGing or whatever, with the same basic detection capability? I totally agree on a fall-off based EWAR, but like you said that is not going to happen. The biggest problem I have is that you can get 2.6 million cubic meters of battlefield permascanned @18 dB while still being cloaked, laying down uplinks, being AFK, cloaky/SGing, basically it requires no effort at all. Another problem I have is that yes, scanners were horrible before, but it is even worse now. People don't realize it but unless you are in a 2x damp scout, you are scanned period. I am not sure why there is a disconnect from EVERYONE hating being permascan to now it being ok because everyone but scouts are permascanned. See the scanners at least provided both counter-intelligence (scanned/failed) and made the suit very vulnerable while scanning, neither of which apply to a system now that is an more than an order of magnitude more powerful. I am not even sure how to quantify it. The amarr scout can scan 26 times larger area than the flux (200m @90 degrees) at a lower dB (18 vs 21) constantly (versus 25% of the time). If the prior scanners were OP, this is absolutely game-breaking. Now I am NOT saying buff scanners. I am saying that you cannot with a straight face tell me that pre-nerf scanners were OP, and a system that is exponentially stronger isn't. EDIT: You are welcome to check my math, I used: Area of a sphere = 1.333Pir^3 Area of a non-traditional cone.... I didn't have the formula or exact name for the shape, but it is easy to do with calculus integral from 0 to Pi of (pi/4)*r^2 In the non-traditional cone shape you use Pi/4 for 90 degrees, and pi/6 for 60 degrees. I guess we could use polar co-ordinates but it is less accessible that way, everyone will recognize the area of a circle part of that integral. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1188	Posted - 2014.10.18 00:17:00 - [5] - Quote To clear things up: I do not want a system where scouts can't hide, of course I want them to be able to hide, a scouts job is getting behind the battlelines and taking out that logi/logis so that the sentinel in front isn't he-man anymore, or finding that m*$%#^&(#@%&^ sniper, or taking out all of the enemies equipment, stealth hacking, etc.. I don't agree with scouts being the be all end all in information warfare, or better assaults than assaults, or great makeshift logis. Due to mechanics now, scouts are very much to versatile to the detriment of other suits. It doesn't mean nerf scouts into the ground, but it does mean that having such far reaching capabilities in one suit actively hurts this game by making it less varied. It also means that an entire meta-game, and an interesting one at that (EWAR) shouldn't be the sole purview of one class, a class that already can do so much. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1188	Posted - 2014.10.18 00:26:00 - [6] - Quote mollerz wrote: You are harassing us, Magnus. Go make your own thread and discuss it ... oh wait.. I have a serious question to everyone: Why is this type of behavior ok? I make a serious post with tons of math in it and ask people to directly refute it and give them the methods I use to do so and the response is trolling... I make an easy to use tool for playing around with EWAR numbers in order to theorycraft together without the need for debating equations and the response is typical of high-school bullying? Is this really fine by all of you? Is this what the scout community represents? So is that what we should expect from these forums? Not to be able to have a reasonable discussion and instead devolve into mindless trolling, diversion, and especially in the case of my thread, harrasment? Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1188	Posted - 2014.10.18 02:32:00 - [7] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: Magnus. We haven't been trying to get scouts buffed to OP. We wanted buffs pre 1.8 but when 1.8 was announced we became very concerned about becoming FotM which this barbershop community didn't want. We were vocal during pre hotfixes about not liking the OP EWAR of the Cal scout, and overall we're glad it got changed. One of the suggestions that keeps coming up here is removing shared squad sight, but keeping it for active scanners. The problem with being scanned by passive EWAR (as I see it) is that you got scanned by a scout sitting over to the side but all his heavy friends can see you too. By removing shared passives, if a scout has to sacrifice mods to see you it reduces their combat capibility, sure they have the EWAR advantage but the assault has the HP advantage. None of us are happy with 900hp scouts running around. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone here running >550 hp on a proto suit, and there are some believe >350 hp is too much. I for one dropped running a Shotgun (my bread and butter) in 1.8 when it became apparent it was the weapon of choice for FotM chasers and I refused to be part of that group. Whatever you seem think this place is, it's not. I don't know what conversations are going on outside of here because I just dont care, the Dust forums sit slightly above 4chan levels for impotent nerd rage for me, so I don't bother. If people from here are coming out and trolling you, they are not representative of the whole. Maybe some people here would disagree with what I said, we're not a unified whole, we argue with each other just as much as with anyone else. This is not a "circle jerk". Thanks for that and those that thumbed up your post. I agree with you on shared passive being a bad thing with as incredibly powerful they are now. I also fully agree on the low HP setup. I have 7 scout setups (basic thru proto) and the highest HP one has 344 HP. I still use the breach SG but only when I get put up against a group of cloaky assault-scout/SG'ers just to return the favor. Honestly I love the thought of the scout role as I described it before, infiltration, hacking, stealth, taking out support. The thing is though I love all of the suits in this game, I love the variety, and I absolutely do not like imbalance. If something I use is OP, I will be the first to admit it. I was all for nerfing the scrambler RoF because of the turbo even though the scrambler is my baby (not really happy with the heat build-up nerf though.) In the end I just want to say thanks for the reply. Fixing EWAR
Magnus Amadeuss Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1212	Posted - 2014.11.05 07:39:00 - [8] - Quote Can you guys check ou tthe EWAR tool in my sig ( you have to save a copy for the full functionality). The number of dampners and enhancers should be modifiable via drop-down menu (along with most other values). Let me know what you think and if there are any problems. EWAR tool