Fearless Speech
Valor Coalition
RISE of LEGION
8
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Posted - 2013.06.26 13:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
dustwaffle wrote:Colonel Killar wrote:dustwaffle wrote:I was sitting on my sofa playing dust while drinking coke, and topped 3 games last night, coming no lower than 4th in all my games. Clearly sofas and coke are OP. NERF SOFA!! NERF COKE!! BUFF PEPSI actually the coke is UP and you don't notice that because the sofa is so OP try coke and a chair Sorry forgot to mention that I was also making a bacon sandwich at the time so it might not have been the sofa that was OP Also, don't be ridiculous, coke is never UP.
You're all wrong. Mountain Dew Master Race. |
Fearless Speech
Valor Coalition
RISE of LEGION
9
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 16:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Well, this went places. I really only intended it to be a vehicle for an OPinion and to provide some entertainment (I'd call that an OP success).
I agree though, it isn't that the AR should be nerfed, though the other "niche" weapons should be made stronger within their niches. All weapons should have a "competitive sweet spot" in which they excel.
@Miguel
lol, you're funny
Oh, and I too belong to the MD Master Race, I'd quiet down if I were a member of any of the other diluted soda race, you might end up sent to the gulags like those dirty Mr Pibb drinkers.
Jawohl Mein Dew
It kind of confuses me that LR, AR and SCR are in different skill trees. I feel like all of these weapons are flavors of the same idea, and I really doubt my personal capacity to reload a clip fed weapon changes because of the amo in the box. Have you noticed how similar SCR and AR reload animations are? Similarly, scrambler pistol and flaylock seem rather close. A rework on this might be hard to balance (ex: heavy suit users wouldn't obviously get a help here, and they already kinda suffer on this front as has been pointed out in the comando discussion thread).
In general, I really like the idea of skilling into what you want to do, and the importance of making good decisions with SP. But... this seems a little fine tuned. And grouping a few weapons together would add a little flexibility that might help with player retention (today I want to do y instead of x).
Mountain Dew is the Word, the Truth, and the Light. Suffer not the unbeliever to live. |
Fearless Speech
Valor Coalition
RISE of LEGION
11
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 19:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
While I agree more or less with the sentiment that the AR is relatively very strong, I wonder about calling it OP. From a practicality stand point, its just not constructive to call it such. Calling it OP will get defense from those who see it as working as intended, which arguably it is. That said, the thread title "SCR LR MD PC HMB SMG FG are UP!" is a bit of a mouthfull, but it is more acurate and constructive.
I think something should only be consdiered truely OP when there is no practicable counter. When there is nothing within a reasonable skill set you can do to feel like you can at least come close to being even. With the AR, leaving aside the LR which just has issues, this isn't really ever the case. A forgegunner has range on his side, a shotgunner and a smg user that use flanking to close the distance have better dps on their side. SCR and AR have pretty similar profiles, with the AR edging against armored targets and SCR edging against shielded targets, really headshots will determine this fight. The problem is, none of these edges are particularly strong. Shotgun's hit detection is so poor, even getting flanking isn't enough to ensure a strong edge, the SMG maybe doesn't have quite enough extra punch (two or three more hps maybe?) to really justify the range sacrifice, the LR is..
Lets look at the other weapon people call OP: Core flaylock. Why do they call it op? It creates a very strong sense of not being able to counter it. Personally, as a G-logi, this armor damage favored aim-for-the-feet weapon on a bouncing 10m/s scout versus my necessarially armor tanked slow suit with the ar... yeah it makes me rage. But only because it makes me feel impotent. Even if I limit my exposure angles to make sure I will usually be able to see them coming, the combination of poor hit detection and speed means that my range advantage is next to nothing. That's not to say that if i catch a CFL scout completely out the in the open I can't kill him, but I don't feel like I really earn those kills--they're mostly the product of good luck. In that sense, I don't feel like there is a counter for me. There is no other weapon I could carry that would match up well against CFL Scout, there is no positioning or playstyle to really limit a CFL scout for me. If I spent all the SP to get full into CFL, I'd still be slow and armor tanked and thus a much easier and softer target than a shielded scout. At the point where the weapon has an indefatigable edge over a particular suit (or family of suits), then you can begin to consider it OP.. but I'm not sure that's the full story.
Is the core flaylock OP? Idk, it makes me feel like it is, but I play probably the worst possible set up against it. Armor tanked logi suit with ar vs fast core. And that is what we should be looking at when we talk about OP / UP. Is there a rock to its scisors? For the ar, nearly all weapons have at least a theoretical counter, most of them are just weak or buggy. Rather than trying to tone down weapons now, we probably should favor buffing for at least a little while. At least until hit detection is fixed. Yes, I am going to scream and shout at every core flaylock scout I empty a full clip on controlled bursts at that two shots my proto suit, but I can't help but feel its because they are benefiting from game mechanic short comings more than actual balance issues. And you know, if I walk my slow AR self into tight quarters and you come in with a cqc weapon like the CFL shotty or SMG and you win, well I was out of my element. I should loose. But I should feel like I stood a chance. And, that chance shouldn't hinge on me having chosen an entirely different class (since SP investments are multiple months and there is no respec, this just isn't a healthy point of view).
As to potential fixes... really I'd rather not tone down the AR or CFL and would rather see those players who favor the other weapons give level headed suggestions. From the shotty community I see a lot of "give us 5 more meters of range and make our bullet spread actually centered on the reticule." SMG, again just slightly stronger bullets. LR... the everything? I think that's why people say the AR is op: Even when you manage to get the AR user into your optimal engagement zone, most of the other weapons are currnetly bugged or under powered to the point there is no feeling of advantage. A shotty user up close should feel like they ought to win the fight and that if they loose it was mostly their own fault. A sniper should feel like they ought to win against an AR at range, and if they loose it was because they failed to engage and kill the AR in time.
TL,DR: Lets discuss OP/UP in terms of paper-rock-scissors. For each weapon v weapon engagement, there should be a practicalbe strategy. AR vs LR: LR should seek range. AR vs Shotty/SMG/CFL: AR shold seek range. The weapon in its element though should have a clear advantage. The advantage of the AR should be that its always almost in its element. Honestly a lot of this will probably be fixed with the already announced changes to distance in 1.2. We should be warry of weapons that have no counter (CFL vs armor tanked anything) and then see if its actual weapon characteristics (dps, rof, etc) or just game mechanics (splash weapons currently strongly benefit from crummy hit detection over percision weapons).
Note: Obviously AV vs AI is totaly different. If you chose to go AV, you should expect to loose to AI. Though now with the comando class, at least its better than having use only a pistol. And if you go full AI, you should expect to loose to armor. But for AI vs AI, there needs to be the feeling that choice and skill matters more than stats.
Note: new armor plates that aren't slowing elements may well fix the perception of CFL as being OP. I hope. |