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The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.26 09:26:00 -
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DUST Fiend wrote:If CCP knew how to balance their game then respecs would only serve to freshen things up and keep people interested far longer.
It's ok though. Outdated design philosophies for a separate genre of game will totally make this game stand out.
Yeah because respecing is very original and creates diversity. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.26 10:18:00 -
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DUST Fiend wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:If CCP knew how to balance their game then respecs would only serve to freshen things up and keep people interested far longer.
It's ok though. Outdated design philosophies for a separate genre of game will totally make this game stand out. Yeah because respecing is very original and creates diversity. It does, by keeping people interested in a boring game by letting them actually do other things. Since there's still no form of tutorials or new player help, we'll be seeing PLENTY of wonky builds, even if everyone got a free respec twice a day Really this is just spreadsheet warriors afraid that they'll loose their only advantage on the field if players are allowed to learn from their mistakes
I disagree, if we were allowed to respec more often then everyone would flock to the new op weapon or suit. How would allowing or not allowing respecs cause "spreadsheet warriors" to be at a disadvantaged or allow them to have an advantage? Live with the choices, it is not that hard of a game. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.26 10:23:00 -
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Godin Thekiller wrote:How about for racial Heavy's, Lights, and vehicle frames? They get ****** over? **** that; they should only people to get a respec, and that's only for the frame ( Say, I skilled Winmatar light frame, and I wanted Amarr, I would lose all of the light and scout skill levels, then transfer them over). My .02 ISK Peace, Godin
I agree with role specific repecs if the core suits, weapons and vehicles are not there or if the skill was mislabeled or misleading. Then only core missing gear and role specific SP should be returned, not full respecs. If you got screwed because the gear wasn't there or the skill didn't do what it said then you would have a valid reason but because you were careless and didn't read isn't a good reason. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.26 10:55:00 -
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RKKR wrote:CuuCH Crusher wrote:There should be no more respecs given at all. There is one major reason for this.
No respecs provide balance to the game. When you allow people to continuously respec, you will have everyone flocking to the nearest OP weapon. With no respecs it takes time for people to skill up into those OP weapons which gives CCP more time to balance them before the majority of the population starts using it.
For those of you who decide to skill into future glaringly OP weapons congratulations and enjoy it while it last. They will be nerfed and you should not be entitled to a skill respec. Or maybe CCP has to fully test the game first to balance everything. How does one test all items? Let the players respec as much as they want so they can test everything. Once everything is balanced and the game is ready for its REAL release you can stop giving respecs (but maybe by that time you will realise that respecing doesn't harm the game). But nice try to push your anti-respec-agenda.
The game will never have balance because new gear will always be introduced. Respecs are bad for DUST because it takes away from the persistance that is promoted. I don't want to see a mercs name and have to guess on what they will be doing in this battle because they just introduced a new suit or weapon. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 20:15:00 -
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All weapons and suits AR cheap enough at entry level to get a feel for them. The problem is that these respecers want proto gear the day it comes out instead of having a goal to work towards. Try lower tier and if you like it then upgrade. Respecs are not the same as remaps in EVE. Selling respecs is P2W. If you want to try new gear then save SP. Balance cannot happen if the balance is based off of a merc running gear with perfect skills becase they got a respec.
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The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 20:24:00 -
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TheMarkOf22 wrote:Game needs Respec's or it will continue to lose players due to boredom
Don't spend all your SP and you don't need a respec. The game is boring because we don't have all the content needed to keep it fun and reallocation of SP won't help make it fun. If everyone specs into the tac and cal logi because they are op then they will do the same thing with the next seemingly op gear when all the SP is refunded. Lots of people say this isn't EVE and they are correct but EVE is in the name. They say not to copy over a skill system from another game but yet most fps offer some type of reallocation method. Play the game for what it is, this is CCP's game and we should play by their rules. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 20:27:00 -
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CuuCH Crusher wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:All weapons and suits AR cheap enough at entry level to get a feel for them. The problem is that these respecers want proto gear the day it comes out instead of having a goal to work towards. Try lower tier and if you like it then upgrade. Respecs are not the same as remaps in EVE. Selling respecs is P2W. If you want to try new gear then save SP. Balance cannot happen if the balance is based off of a merc running gear with perfect skills becase they got a respec.
True. Selling respecs would definitely turn this game into P2W. I say just leave the SP system alone and work on gameplay and hit detection. Build the game up. Don't tear down what makes it unique.
That is a plus one. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 20:34:00 -
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A'Real Fury wrote:Tis upto CCP now. There have been plenty of threads and a lot of discussion for and against in those threads. If the respeccers form the majority of the current player base then things could get bad later this year but if we are in the minority then things will go along with very little change.
At this point CCP is either convinced on the matter or not. If not then they will just have to accept the consequences, if any.
Hopefully the player base will slowly rise over time as more unique content is added. The expansions - just like in EVE - will drive some off but usually brings more back. New console games will pull people away for a while but will not keep them because those games are a finished product with a shelf life. DUST will continue to grow and offer more things to more people. It's a slow burn and a bumpy road but it will end up in a good spot if we don't give in. |
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Posted - 2013.06.27 20:36:00 -
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Darken-Sol wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:TheMarkOf22 wrote:Game needs Respec's or it will continue to lose players due to boredom Don't spend all your SP and you don't need a respec. The game is boring because we don't have all the content needed to keep it fun and reallocation of SP won't help make it fun. If everyone specs into the tac and cal logi because they are op then they will do the same thing with the next seemingly op gear when all the SP is refunded. Lots of people say this isn't EVE and they are correct but EVE is in the name. They say not to copy over a skill system from another game but yet most fps offer some type of reallocation method. Play the game for what it is, this is CCP's game and we should play by their rules. Yeah we should have not said a damn thing on the forums about uprising. it was fine the way they made it. not one problem, just eat it. buy boosters too. lets get in a big line and kiss thier ass.
Logical fallacies. I sad none of those things. I only said respecs would hurt more than help. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 20:40:00 -
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RKKR wrote:DUST514 the game where you make the choice to wait until the game is decent enough for an actual release or just be ****** up later on.
Clearly I'm the only one that thinks this game needs work on all its gear with some decent testing (aka Beta) but hey I'm the ignorant fuckhead that wants to ruin the game mechanics that are already broken.
I'm currently just staying for the people I play with, but yes leaving the game is on my mind because each day seems like that CCP won't be able to recover from their UPRISING-fuckup anytime soon and missed their boat to be innovative. Not respeccing will only slow this process down, that's why I'm in favor of respeccing until the game is decent enough and it's also a great way to evaluate respeccing (which means it doesn't have to be permanent). Anyway feel free to think I'm just QQ'ing because I'm afraid of a NERF (not even specced into OP stuff) or that I invested my SP wrong we'll see how the game will end SOONGäó.
I understand that upcoming nerfs make us nervous but CCP does fix things. They are working on a difficult to program piece of hardware that is 7 years old on a schedule that they don't have full control over. I am saying don't jump ship. Play another game for a while and come back. Taking a break really helps. |
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The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 20:43:00 -
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TheMarkOf22 wrote: How do you earn something you can only request when new skills are added?
Are you dumb? I've already earned my SP, I should choose where and when I want to invest in a skill.[/quote]
If you spent the SP then you did make the choice already. I agree with a respec for core items that are missing, mainly heavy and scout suits. Everything else we should live with. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 20:47:00 -
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TheMarkOf22 wrote:CuuCH Crusher wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:All weapons and suits AR cheap enough at entry level to get a feel for them. The problem is that these respecers want proto gear the day it comes out instead of having a goal to work towards. Try lower tier and if you like it then upgrade. Respecs are not the same as remaps in EVE. Selling respecs is P2W. If you want to try new gear then save SP. Balance cannot happen if the balance is based off of a merc running gear with perfect skills becase they got a respec.
True. Selling respecs would definitely turn this game into P2W. I say just leave the SP system alone and work on gameplay and hit detection. Build the game up. Don't tear down what makes it unique. Why should you have to pay for something you already earned? Paying for Respec's is dumb unless it's purely isk. Also, Can you name on game in the history of video games that has ever got better core mechanic post release? It's NEVER happened, not even COD will billions can get it perfect. Stop living in some fantasy world where this game magically transforms from **** to gold, not going to happen on PS3 maybe on PS4 but even that's a huge stretch.
Skyrim, simcity, eve and diablo just off the top of my head. And I am pretty sure cod has had to patch a few times. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 20:54:00 -
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Darken-Sol wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:A'Real Fury wrote:Tis upto CCP now. There have been plenty of threads and a lot of discussion for and against in those threads. If the respeccers form the majority of the current player base then things could get bad later this year but if we are in the minority then things will go along with very little change.
At this point CCP is either convinced on the matter or not. If not then they will just have to accept the consequences, if any. Hopefully the player base will slowly rise over time as more unique content is added. The expansions - just like in EVE - will drive some off but usually brings more back. New console games will pull people away for a while but will not keep them because those games are a finished product with a shelf life. DUST will continue to grow and offer more things to more people. It's a slow burn and a bumpy road but it will end up in a good spot if we don't give in. hope is not that great as a strategy. We had tons of players for a week or so. its the lack of content, there is plenty for me with my 15 mil SP, but newer guys get the shaft. I have got to try all the suits and guns because i have had two respecs. most people wont even be able to change guns for 6 months. their initial bulk of skill points wasted because they got dumped an academy with no instructors. if you dont want respecs fine, shut up. an added feature couldnt hurt this game. i signed on sat morn there was less than 3000 playing. we have to keep people around to shoot at.
You can use most advanced weapons within two week and standard in on day. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 20:57:00 -
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TheMarkOf22 wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:TheMarkOf22 wrote:CuuCH Crusher wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:All weapons and suits AR cheap enough at entry level to get a feel for them. The problem is that these respecers want proto gear the day it comes out instead of having a goal to work towards. Try lower tier and if you like it then upgrade. Respecs are not the same as remaps in EVE. Selling respecs is P2W. If you want to try new gear then save SP. Balance cannot happen if the balance is based off of a merc running gear with perfect skills becase they got a respec.
True. Selling respecs would definitely turn this game into P2W. I say just leave the SP system alone and work on gameplay and hit detection. Build the game up. Don't tear down what makes it unique. Why should you have to pay for something you already earned? Paying for Respec's is dumb unless it's purely isk. Also, Can you name on game in the history of video games that has ever got better core mechanic post release? It's NEVER happened, not even COD will billions can get it perfect. Stop living in some fantasy world where this game magically transforms from **** to gold, not going to happen on PS3 maybe on PS4 but even that's a huge stretch. Skyrim, simcity, eve and diablo just off the top of my head. And I am pretty sure cod has had to patch a few times. NONE of those are shooters, you idiot or even relate to what I was talking about.
You said any game in video game history and I gave you 4 from this year and cod is a fps. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 20:59:00 -
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TheMarkOf22 wrote:CuuCH Crusher wrote:TheMarkOf22 wrote:
Are you dumb? I've already earned my SP, I should choose where and when I want to invest in a skill.
Sorry but we don't play by your rules. We shouldn't have to change the game, just to suit your play style. Adapt or die. Adapt or die? LOL your on the forums asking for nerfs, trying taking your own advice. How do I adapt from being the best player and in the best corp? Please explain?
If you are the best of the best with the max SP then why do you need a respec? |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 21:03:00 -
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This is a fun thread. Keep it up. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 21:07:00 -
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The root of the problem is that scrubs are scrubs, they make bad choices and fail. Pros are pros and they make good decisions and win. Don't reward stupidity or punish mercs who read, think and research. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 21:16:00 -
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Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:All weapons and suits AR cheap enough at entry level to get a feel for them. The problem is that these respecers want proto gear the day it comes out instead of having a goal to work towards. Try lower tier and if you like it then upgrade. Respecs are not the same as remaps in EVE. Selling respecs is P2W. If you want to try new gear then save SP. Balance cannot happen if the balance is based off of a merc running gear with perfect skills becase they got a respec.
Selling Respecs aren't P2W if they are sold in the manner that PLEXs are and/or as an augmentation. Then they can either be A) Made available on the NPC market for ISK B) Made avaiable on the Player market for ISK, AUR, Trade. And in the end if everyone is given 1 FREE Respec and have the opportunity to purchase 1 PAID respec a year for a total of 2 then you are paying for one more bite at the apple and if trades and all the like are available but still limited to a single use then everyone is getting the same number of chances and not everyone is being forced to pay if they get it in the market for ISK. I am open to the idea that if the market comes ahead of this augmentation then perhaps not even allowing the 1 Freebie and require all respecs to be paid with AURum or acquired through player market. The only question becomes is if limit is 2x year is there a way for a person to purchase more than 2 but still for the game code to recognize they have already hit max limit and cant use them only trade them. If not then respecs become a rationed commodity in which in theory there are only 2x X number players possible out there. Thus those who choose not to purchase with AUR may find these items skyrocket in terms of ISK value depending on the Demand given there will only ever be a fixed supply within a year. This would create a rather nice market commoditiy with a great tie in for market players who could have fun with just this augmentation alone and it would be a pretty nice revenue generator for CCP if they priced it b/w 9.99 and 19.99
Great idea and I think it would work and generation income. However, I am trying to stay in the spirit of the game by sticking with choices mean something. Being able to change my fundamental play style I ruin the idea of persistence. The skill system is sparse and underwhelming but usable. We have something unique and we should keep it because it isn't the worst thing ever. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 21:21:00 -
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CuuCH Crusher wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:The root of the problem is that scrubs are scrubs, they make bad choices and fail. Pros are pros and they make good decisions and win. Don't reward stupidity or punish mercs who read, think and research. This is true. I started this game last month. I was a super scrub. I had to reset my character 10 times and spent about a month testing different builds before I found a role that I liked and fit my play style. Bad decisions should never be rewarded.
If a merc starts slow and doesn't dump all the SP into something the second they can afford it then they do better. Lots of the skills needed to perform well are core skills that will have to be trained no matter what. I was in the first part of the closed beta and this game isn't as hard as many people think. Eve has more skills in gunnery alone than dust as a whole. The choices are not that difficult. |
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Posted - 2013.06.27 21:24:00 -
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XeroTheBigBoss wrote:CuuCH Crusher wrote:There should be no more respecs given at all. There is one major reason for this.
No respecs provide balance to the game. When you allow people to continuously respec, you will have everyone flocking to the nearest OP weapon. With no respecs it takes time for people to skill up into those OP weapons which gives CCP more time to balance them before the majority of the population starts using it.
For those of you who decide to skill into future glaringly OP weapons congratulations and enjoy it while it last. They will be nerfed and you should not be entitled to a skill respec. They already flock to the OP weapons just takes them 2 weeks or so.
If it only takes two weeks then why the need for respec? |
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The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 21:36:00 -
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Skill spikes and skill clusters were once on the neo com, we couldn't buy any but the slot was there. Would a spike or cluster that effected skills - opposite of arum weapons, actually raising skill levels - change the respec debate?
I like your idea because it does punish for bad choices. I like it but I don't think it is right for dust. It is the best idea so far in my opinion. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 22:40:00 -
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Yes to everything Crusher. Needs to be very steep. If we had spikes and clusters for sell this wouldn't be such a big deal because buying a level with a skills spike and a second with a cluster - I am just speculating on their function if the even still exist - coupled with an aurm item adds up to proto gear at level two actual skills. As long as their are ISK versions it isn't pay to win.
The whole argument of this thread is that a respec would somehow cure some of the problems with the game but in fact it would do just what Crush said. Balancing would be difficult with constantly changing skill sets and weapons that perform better would flocked to and broken items would be shunned. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 22:59:00 -
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CuuCH Crusher wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:Yes to everything Crusher. Needs to be very steep. If we had spikes and clusters for sell this wouldn't be such a big deal because buying a level with a skills spike and a second with a cluster - I am just speculating on their function if the even still exist - coupled with an aurm item adds up to proto gear at level two actual skills. As long as their are ISK versions it isn't pay to win.
The whole argument of this thread is that a respec would somehow cure some of the problems with the game but in fact it would do just what Crush said. Balancing would be difficult with constantly changing skill sets and weapons that perform better would flocked to and broken items would be shunned. Thank you for the kind words. I have a question. What are spikes and clusters?
They were with the boosters in the neocom in closed beta and I am guessing that they would have added skill levels or skill sets. I have no idea what they were for but they always were interesting. It was just some empty slots. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 23:08:00 -
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EKH0 0ne wrote:CuuCH Crusher wrote:There should be no more respecs given at all. There is one major reason for this.
No respecs provide balance to the game. When you allow people to continuously respec, you will have everyone flocking to the nearest OP weapon. With no respecs it takes time for people to skill up into those OP weapons which gives CCP more time to balance them before the majority of the population starts using it.
For those of you who decide to skill into future glaringly OP weapons congratulations and enjoy it while it last. They will be nerfed and you should not be entitled to a skill respec. bullshit, respecs are beneficial for everyone.
I am going to be completely honest no bullshit or trolling.
Yes, respecs would help everyone. It may make people mad but we would get over it. It would also bring some more people back for a few days. However, it would be bad for balance because all the numbers used as a benchmark or whatever they do would change. People would proto in one day and the OP/UP threads would start over. Lastly, it goes against the theme of New Eden. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.27 23:45:00 -
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CuuCH Crusher wrote:EKH0 0ne wrote:CuuCH Crusher wrote:There should be no more respecs given at all. There is one major reason for this.
No respecs provide balance to the game. When you allow people to continuously respec, you will have everyone flocking to the nearest OP weapon. With no respecs it takes time for people to skill up into those OP weapons which gives CCP more time to balance them before the majority of the population starts using it.
For those of you who decide to skill into future glaringly OP weapons congratulations and enjoy it while it last. They will be nerfed and you should not be entitled to a skill respec. bullshit, respecs are beneficial for everyone. Care to elaborate? Or are you just gonna make statements without providing any proof or logic to back them up?
The weapons that are considered broken or under powered will have their points shifted to the weapon that offer an edge at that particular moment. Top players with the best guns and skills will roll everyone and a lots of threads will be created about balance. People will continue to push SP in to the better weapons causing a nerf and driving off the same people they brought back with the respec. The time it takes CCP to fix problems would cause another 6 week dokm and gloom forum fire. They would never have the time to balance the game because of this cycle.
Balance takes time and lots of data over a long period of time. In house and Sony testing adds to that amount. One mans nerf is another mans buff so the trick is have the correct amount of imbalance. When it comes down to a one on one fight in exactly the same suit size and similar weapon ranges and skills the winner should be based on personal skills and fitting choices. The constant skill changes and respec would only skew data and add time.
Part of New Eden is learning by fire. This game is a meat grinder for all but the top players. People learn best by mistakes and through social interaction. The game being hard and causing frustration encourages people to think about the mistake they made and plan for the future. It also causes them to reach out to the forums and participate in feedback and in the community. Choices also mean reputation I know mercs by the weapons and tactics they use. I am a logi and anyone who has been on my team knows I play the logi game. Reputation will mean more to us jnthe long run that any reallocation of SP and we should all be playing for our enjoyment and reputation.
Sorry I am so long winded but I wanted to try. |
The Robot Devil
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Posted - 2013.06.28 03:24:00 -
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LT SHANKS wrote:What about Heavies and their racial variant dropsuits? Would we have to grind SP for a month just so we can get into a prototype Minmitar? Having only the Amarr suit available at release did not give the Heavies any options. All the racial medium frames and one-half of the light frames were released with Uprising. Heavies got nothing.
Missing suits and primary core weapons should get a reallocation of the points they spent on those skills that had no other version to choose from. |
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Posted - 2013.06.28 08:08:00 -
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RKKR wrote:The Robot Devil wrote:Yes to everything Crusher. Needs to be very steep. If we had spikes and clusters for sell this wouldn't be such a big deal because buying a level with a skills spike and a second with a cluster - I am just speculating on their function if the even still exist - coupled with an aurm item adds up to proto gear at level two actual skills. As long as their are ISK versions it isn't pay to win.
The whole argument of this thread is that a respec would somehow cure some of the problems with the game but in fact it would do just what Crush said. Balancing would be difficult with constantly changing skill sets and weapons that perform better would flocked to and broken items would be shunned. Isn't that happening (now) without respecs too? Anyway what do you guys think of untraining one skill-level a week with a loss of X% SP of that levels SP?
Yes it is happening and it would be even worse if everyone could dump all their SP into whatever they want at anytime. |
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Posted - 2013.06.28 08:31:00 -
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RKKR wrote:THEDRiZZLE Aqua teen wrote:No respects it gets abused and unbalances the game I can get that people don't want respecs in line of decision making,...but making the game unbalanced? No, do you care to elaborate?
Post #180 in this thread. |
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