DUST Search - Planetary conquest, pc bug

major faux-pas wrote:

CCP FoxFour wrote:

The petition is being handled separately, I am not here to discuss the specifics on that.

What I do want to address is the issue where you can be declared victor and still lose the district. This can happen and is considered to be as designed for now, although we have it on our backlog to look at how we present it to the user.

The reason this can happen is as follows:

The defender "wins" the battle to defend their district
The defender however ends the battle with 0 clones left
A fundamental rule of planetary conquest is that if a district ever goes down to 0 clones it is considered abandoned
The defender has won the battle, but lost the district due to running out of clones
The attack actually still has their 1 hour exclusivity period to re-attack the district, doing so will win it for them instantly since it has no owner

In the above example the system worked entirely as designed based on the rules we had set out. We clearly didn't really anticipate this exact scenario very well and in the future we will revisit this and look to see if we can improve it.

If you have experienced winning a defensive battle, losing the district, and you did in fact have clones left, then please do petition it and we will look into what happened.

Thank you for the response. We are now closer to the matter.

2 Problems with your reason given above:
1) (general) It makes no sense
2) (specific) The reason outlined above is not correct (loop on line 2)

This is how: "The defender however ends the battle with 0 clones left" - I submit again, *This did not occur*

- As I specified, we cloned them (exactly why 'victory' was declared). This is therefore a bug - i.e. poor programming with a nonsense outcome - i.e a bug. Now that is clear, the bug can be put in the queue for fixing.

Now, to the real-life problem of disenchanted gamers: CCP, you claim the beauty of Dust is that things MATTER to the players. This is true for all us Dusties, and your work to date should be congratulated as you have acheived this aim. Now - THAT battle mattered to us. A lot of time and passion is invested in this (forget the Aurum).

CCP, given the above, in the rare event of these ERRONEOUS rulings, it would show concern for your players who experience this, to soften the blow through some compensation, i.e. SP (We must accept we loose the district - as events in eve move on). Failure to recognise and make repairations shows a clear lack of concern for your player-base in PC. I have not seen many of my previously regular corpmates online for some time now.

I mean no offense, and apologise if caused. I sincerely hope you will recognise the importance, and reply on topic 1) regarding the bug in the system 2) regarding repairations/relations.

Sincere regards,
Major FP

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 15	Posted - 2013.06.18 22:20:00 - [1] - Quote Lol. Damn. One day, a ship full of mercs attacked a far off planet. They got cloned. 'Victory' was declared to the defender, as you might expect.... 5 minutes later ccp change their mind and declare the district to be property of the vanquished attackers. Who proceeded to take the clone reinforcement... WTF???
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 131	Posted - 2013.06.19 00:36:00 - [2] - Quote Which district?
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 15	Posted - 2013.06.19 12:18:00 - [3] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Which district? Purposefully avoided that to prevent unneccessary locker-room talk. The issue is with CCP, not between corps. I think the technicality may be to do with kills continuing after the win/loss is delared. This above all else needs fixing Technicalities aside in a real game this kind of thing would cost a referee his career. in this 'virtual universe' it makes no sense at all. If an attack craft is sent and all your clones are taken out - you have lost - simple - and the planet still belongs to the defender. I thought nanite injectors, murder taxis and comms related lag were serious... but this wins 1st prize ! Realism has gone / planetary conquest officially sucks.
Django Quik R.I.f.t 695	Posted - 2013.06.19 16:57:00 - [4] - Quote If you don't give the details of the district and time/date of the battle, CCP can't investigate properly. Locker room talk will be removed by the moderators if you report it (if any). This is clearly a bug and not CCP intentionally changing the victor.
Roy Snows Oak Th3 Ch0s3n 0n3s 1	Posted - 2013.06.19 17:45:00 - [5] - Quote He's waiting CCP to ask for the district before posting. To prevent this topic being moved to the locker room.
PlanetSide2Bomber Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2013.06.20 03:20:00 - [6] - Quote Be your own Judge. What game looks like more fun to you? Dust.........Or this......... Planetside 2 Coming to PS4 this year Insane Infantry Push Amazing Night Battle Night to Day Canyon Battle Intense Field Battle Desert Infantry Line Huge Desert Tank Battle 100 Tank Convoy 150 man Air Raid 65/0 Kill streak in the air NC Montage Factions Explained
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 15	Posted - 2013.06.20 14:02:00 - [7] - Quote ^^ Absolutely. If you think the team who wins the battle and is declared 'Victory' should sometimes loose the district they are defending anyway due to background game mechanics... Then don't bump or 'like' this message. IF you'd like to see this madness FIXED, then please bump this message somehow ('likes' are good, replies are better). Thanks all. M F-P
Django Quik R.I.f.t 697	Posted - 2013.06.20 15:28:00 - [8] - Quote Did you raise a petition for this? That's the first thing you should have done.
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 15	Posted - 2013.06.20 16:06:00 - [9] - Quote yes.
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 20	Posted - 2013.06.21 17:50:00 - [10] - Quote Still no reply as yet but hoping ccp will acknowledge this is not functioning as it should.

Allen S Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 6	Posted - 2013.06.22 06:56:00 - [11] - Quote Still unclear on how this happened how this is "working as intended"??
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 25	Posted - 2013.06.23 19:32:00 - [12] - Quote Ccp are looking into it again. The 'working as intended' statement was evidently a rushed reply as they have a lot on. Fingers crossed we will get some proper consideration soon. Anyone else had a victory declared and then lost the district? (Defending only)?

CCP FoxFour C C P C C P Alliance 24594	Posted - 2013.06.24 11:36:00 - [13] - Quote The petition is being handled separately, I am not here to discuss the specifics on that. What I do want to address is the issue where you can be declared victor and still lose the district. This can happen and is considered to be as designed for now, although we have it on our backlog to look at how we present it to the user. The reason this can happen is as follows: The defender "wins" the battle to defend their district The defender however ends the battle with 0 clones left A fundamental rule of planetary conquest is that if a district ever goes down to 0 clones it is considered abandoned The defender has won the battle, but lost the district due to running out of clones The attack actually still has their 1 hour exclusivity period to re-attack the district, doing so will win it for them instantly since it has no owner In the above example the system worked entirely as designed based on the rules we had set out. We clearly didn't really anticipate this exact scenario very well and in the future we will revisit this and look to see if we can improve it. If you have experienced winning a defensive battle, losing the district, and you did in fact have clones left, then please do petition it and we will look into what happened.

Absolute Idiom II Amarr Immortal Volunteers 127	Posted - 2013.06.24 13:03:00 - [14] - Quote Surely it should be a draw - if both sides suffer a losing state? (MCC destroyed and zero clones left) Or better: match ends immediately when MCC dies or zero clones remain.
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 27	Posted - 2013.06.24 14:16:00 - [15] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: The petition is being handled separately, I am not here to discuss the specifics on that. What I do want to address is the issue where you can be declared victor and still lose the district. This can happen and is considered to be as designed for now, although we have it on our backlog to look at how we present it to the user. The reason this can happen is as follows: The defender "wins" the battle to defend their district The defender however ends the battle with 0 clones left A fundamental rule of planetary conquest is that if a district ever goes down to 0 clones it is considered abandoned The defender has won the battle, but lost the district due to running out of clones The attack actually still has their 1 hour exclusivity period to re-attack the district, doing so will win it for them instantly since it has no owner In the above example the system worked entirely as designed based on the rules we had set out. We clearly didn't really anticipate this exact scenario very well and in the future we will revisit this and look to see if we can improve it. If you have experienced winning a defensive battle, losing the district, and you did in fact have clones left, then please do petition it and we will look into what happened. Thank you for the response. We are now closer to the matter. 2 Problems with your reason given above: 1) (general) It makes no sense 2) (specific) The reason outlined above is not correct (loop on line 2) This is how: "The defender however ends the battle with 0 clones left" - I submit again, This did not occur - As I specified, we cloned them (exactly why 'victory' was declared). This is therefore a bug - i.e. poor programming with a nonsense outcome - i.e a bug. Now that is clear, the bug can be put in the queue for fixing. Now, to the real-life problem of disenchanted gamers: CCP, you claim the beauty of Dust is that things MATTER to the players. This is true for all us Dusties, and your work to date should be congratulated as you have acheived this aim. Now - THAT battle mattered to us. A lot of time and passion is invested in this (forget the Aurum). CCP, given the above, in the rare event of these ERRONEOUS rulings, it would show concern for your players who experience this, to soften the blow through some compensation, i.e. SP (We must accept we loose the district - as events in eve move on). Failure to recognise and make repairations shows a clear lack of concern for your player-base in PC. I have not seen many of my previously regular corpmates online for some time now. I mean no offense, and apologise if caused. I sincerely hope you will recognise the importance, and reply on topic 1) regarding the bug in the system 2) regarding repairations/relations. Sincere regards, Major FP
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 27	Posted - 2013.06.24 14:43:00 - [16] - Quote Absolute Idiom II wrote: Surely it should be a draw - if both sides suffer a losing state? (MCC destroyed and zero clones left) Or better: match ends immediately when MCC dies or zero clones remain. Like your better option, is the simple fix to the bug. If ccp say it is not possible to do for some reason, then any draw should be ruled in favour of the defender (if reason needed: the planetary populace is unlikely to all be engaged in battle) there should certainly not exist loopholes for the cloned attacker anyway
Absolute Idiom II Amarr Immortal Volunteers 128	Posted - 2013.06.24 15:27:00 - [17] - Quote 3rd alternative - attackers have a forced cooldown because they lost and they cannot immediately attack the district.
Django Quik R.I.f.t 735	Posted - 2013.06.24 15:53:00 - [18] - Quote On the extremely rare occurence of the sequence of events that FoxFour has presented happening, the entire problem would be fixed by disallowing losing attackers from having the hour re-attack period.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 161	Posted - 2013.06.24 18:12:00 - [19] - Quote major faux-pas wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: The petition is being handled separately, I am not here to discuss the specifics on that. What I do want to address is the issue where you can be declared victor and still lose the district. This can happen and is considered to be as designed for now, although we have it on our backlog to look at how we present it to the user. The reason this can happen is as follows: The defender "wins" the battle to defend their district The defender however ends the battle with 0 clones left A fundamental rule of planetary conquest is that if a district ever goes down to 0 clones it is considered abandoned The defender has won the battle, but lost the district due to running out of clones The attack actually still has their 1 hour exclusivity period to re-attack the district, doing so will win it for them instantly since it has no owner In the above example the system worked entirely as designed based on the rules we had set out. We clearly didn't really anticipate this exact scenario very well and in the future we will revisit this and look to see if we can improve it. If you have experienced winning a defensive battle, losing the district, and you did in fact have clones left, then please do petition it and we will look into what happened. Thank you for the response. We are now closer to the matter. 2 Problems with your reason given above: 1) (general) It makes no sense 2) (specific) The reason outlined above is not correct (loop on line 2) This is how: "The defender however ends the battle with 0 clones left" - I submit again, This did not occur - As I specified, we cloned them (exactly why 'victory' was declared). This is therefore a bug - i.e. poor programming with a nonsense outcome - i.e a bug. Now that is clear, the bug can be put in the queue for fixing. Now, to the real-life problem of disenchanted gamers: CCP, you claim the beauty of Dust is that things MATTER to the players. This is true for all us Dusties, and your work to date should be congratulated as you have acheived this aim. Now - THAT battle mattered to us. A lot of time and passion is invested in this (forget the Aurum). CCP, given the above, in the rare event of these ERRONEOUS rulings, it would show concern for your players who experience this, to soften the blow through some compensation, i.e. SP (We must accept we loose the district - as events in eve move on). Failure to recognise and make repairations shows a clear lack of concern for your player-base in PC. I have not seen many of my previously regular corpmates online for some time now. I mean no offense, and apologise if caused. I sincerely hope you will recognise the importance, and reply on topic 1) regarding the bug in the system 2) regarding repairations/relations. Sincere regards, Major FP Are you sure you did not suffer from a last minute OB from the other team, wiping out your clones? This could result in the situation that FoxFour has described. Considering that computers are generally good with numbers this could be an issue where the count of the dead was in before it registered on your screen (you died and the black screen has no counter and the counter doesn't show when you are bleeding out with your killer's info in front of you) or where you miss counted the deaths after the battle. I only ask because all these things are possible reasons for this to happen, and after all the PC battles I have been in I have never seen this happen. I also hate to tell you this but I have never been compensated for lagging out and locking up in a PC battle yet I have seen it happen more than once. This is not a request for compensation.
Rogatien Merc Ill Omens EoN. 117	Posted - 2013.06.25 05:22:00 - [20] - Quote A clone count of 0 indicates there are no clones available for mercenaries who die... but if a side wins the match, and has even one or two mercs alive at the end of the match, logic would indicate that those active clones who won the battle don't just... disappear. They're sitting there with the flag planted.

major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 28	Posted - 2013.06.25 09:27:00 - [21] - Quote [/quote] Are you sure you did not suffer from a last minute OB from the other team, wiping out your clones? This could result in the situation that FoxFour has described. Considering that computers are generally good with numbers this could be an issue where the count of the dead was in before it registered on your screen (you died and the black screen has no counter and the counter doesn't show when you are bleeding out with your killer's info in front of you) or where you miss counted the deaths after the battle. I only ask because all these things are possible reasons for this to happen, and after all the PC battles I have been in I have never seen this happen. I also hate to tell you this but I have never been compensated for lagging out and locking up in a PC battle yet I have seen it happen more than once. This is not a request for compensation.[/quote] Thanks for providing your wisdom. I would further your lecture: computers are almost perfect at counting - humans write code. Answers to your questions, 1:Y 2: one can't count deaths after battle 3:that's not why you ask 4:congratulations on your PC record 5: well if it's never happened to you it couldn't possibly happen to anyone else 6: yes, I'm sure you hate to tell me all of this. Thank you for your contribution.
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 28	Posted - 2013.06.25 09:31:00 - [22] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: A clone count of 0 indicates there are no clones available for mercenaries who die... but if a side wins the match, and has even one or two mercs alive at the end of the match, logic would indicate that those active clones who won the battle don't just... disappear. They're sitting there with the flag planted. Agree with this logic (however, did not occur here)

CCP FoxFour C C P C C P Alliance 24610	Posted - 2013.06.25 12:29:00 - [23] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: A clone count of 0 indicates there are no clones available for mercenaries who die... but if a side wins the match, and has even one or two mercs alive at the end of the match, logic would indicate that those active clones who won the battle don't just... disappear. They're sitting there with the flag planted. Unfortunately once you open a clone and use it, they cannot be repackaged. :(

major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 28	Posted - 2013.06.25 13:07:00 - [24] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: Rogatien Merc wrote: A clone count of 0 indicates there are no clones available for mercenaries who die... but if a side wins the match, and has even one or two mercs alive at the end of the match, logic would indicate that those active clones who won the battle don't just... disappear. They're sitting there with the flag planted. Unfortunately once you open a clone and use it, they cannot be repackaged. :( Doesnt need to be repackaged, its defending so can stay put: i.e. you have an active merc which is superior to a clone. Anyway, Are we going off topic? This is clearly not 'working' or 'working as intended', it simply hasn't been thought out. Please elevate the issu (the gm currently dealing with this is under the impression the district was abandoned, and is just repeating the party line: 'this is working as intended'.) Poor game mechanics turned the win into a loss. ccp previously had a policy of ruling in favour of the defender under contraversial technicalities. With regards, Mfp
Reiki Jubo Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 158	Posted - 2013.06.25 13:14:00 - [25] - Quote real question is why didnt victory trigger the reinforcement timer? also, did post groups clone each other at the exact same time? i doubt it. thats why the system gave victory to one group. scary bug, if that would have been me id be pissed.
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 29	Posted - 2013.06.25 13:47:00 - [26] - Quote Reiki Jubo wrote: real question is why didnt victory trigger the reinforcement timer? also, did post groups clone each other at the exact same time? i doubt it. thats why the system gave victory to one group. scary bug, if that would have been me id be pissed. Thanks jubo, you are correct, we won on clones. In fact we were sitting there refraining from spawning with 3 clones left! That's how we cloned them. To be told by the gm you had 'abandoned' and therefore lost the district, is hard to swallow. Ccp will, no question, change this mechanic in future, but so far my petition has not been taken seriously, and the player base in my corp has suffered because many feel like they are the ones who have been 'abandoned'. Im holding out for a positive gesture from ccp, coz id like to see my corpmates re-energised.
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 29	Posted - 2013.06.26 15:47:00 - [27] - Quote Come on CCP, don't leave me hanging?
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 30	Posted - 2013.06.27 20:36:00 - [28] - Quote Hi GM Vegas, thanks for your response. To generate a more engaged and fruitful discussion, I am replying here. In reply to your message below, I do not actually seek clarification of anything, I seek a reply to the 2 points I raised on the forum, 06/24 14:16 (exerpt below). For clarity: victory was declared, we began to celebrate, and then this was torn away. Now you are arguing that this a justified outcome based on the game mechanics. I do not need clarification HOW it is possible, I know it is possible, because it happened. THE POINT IS: it shouldnGÇÖt. And please, before you fall back upon justifications based upon the logic which led to this situation (and sending us all in circles again) I ask that you view this with fresh eyes. "The defender however ends the battle with 0 clones left" - I submit again, This did not occur. As I specified, we cloned them (exactly why 'victory' was declared). This is therefore a bug - i.e. poor programming with a nonsense outcome - i.e a bug. Now that is clear, the bug can be put in the queue for fixing. Now, to the real-life problem of disenchanted gamers: CCP, you claim the beauty of Dust, is that things MATTER to the players. This is true for all us Dusties, and your work to date should be congratulated as you have acheived this aim. Now - THAT battle mattered to us. A lot of time and passion is invested in this (forget the Aurum). CCP, given the above, in the rare event of these erroneous rulings, it would show concern for your players who experience this, to soften the blow through some compensation, i.e. SP. Until the system is reworked, players must accept they loose the district (as events in eve move on). Failure to recognise, apologise, and make reparations shows a clear lack of concern for your player-base in PC. One manifestation of this is that since this event I have not seen many of my previously regular corpmates online for some time. I mean no offense, and apologise if caused. My suggestion is -I hope- for the benefit of players, corpmates and the success of Dust and CCP. I sincerely hope you will recognise the importance of maintaining faith in the potential of this game, and reply on topic 1) regarding this stupid bug in the system. 2) regarding reparations/relations. Poor game mechanics turned the win into a loss. IGÇÖd like to see my corpmates re-energised. CCP previously had a policy of ruling in favour of the defender under controversial technicalities. Where is that policy now? Sincere regards, Major FP From: DUST 514 Customer Support [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 26 June 2013 17:23 To: [email protected] Subject: RE: PC 'Victory' bug [20130619-3297269-8F8A9647] Hello, I do apologise if my answer was not clear enough. Could you please advise on which points you want us to clarify and we will be more than happy to provide you further details on the current mechanics of the game. Once mentioned in the forum post below, once a clone is deployed Even if not killed) it is subtracted from the clone count and cannot be repackaged. We in no way imply your corporation got 'cloned' during the battle, only that all your clones were deployed at the end of the battle. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=977292#post977292 Regards, GM Vegas CCP Customer Support \| EVE Online \| Dust 514
Allen S Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 7	Posted - 2013.06.30 12:24:00 - [29] - Quote Still the issue of sending the other team packing because the victory was to the defender yet the other team was still around to capture the district? This still makes no sense to me, I'm sorry I don't understand

CCP FoxFour C C P C C P Alliance 24659	Posted - 2013.07.03 13:44:00 - [30] - Quote Allen S wrote: Still the issue of sending the other team packing because the victory was to the defender yet the other team was still around to capture the district? This still makes no sense to me, I'm sorry I don't understand They were not "still around" they launched another attack, but because the district was unowned the attack mean an immediate capture. At this point in time we are standing by the design of running out of clones in a battle means losing the district. As for discussing the petition here, that is not going to happen. Petitions are to be discussed in the petition not on the forums.




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