DUST Search - Was it worth it? Going to node-based skills?

Agent Joseph wrote:

Presenting complex information in a format that players can actually understand is not a waste of time. It's actually pretty damn important.

CCP doesn't document their game systems. Everyone knows this. (Evidence: 10 years of EvE.) They create them. Sometimes they expose them transparently at the data level (via APIs) and then they wait for players to reverse-engineer them and document them. It's cost effective for CCP. And it's an enrichment activity for the players, keeping them from wasting their time on non-game activities.

However, this strategy is also deeply, fundamentally stupid.

A metaphor: imagine a restaurant that serves an ethnic cuisine nobody locally has ever heard of. The owner doesn't put pictures in the menu. He doesn't write descriptions of the meals. He just lists their foreign names that his customers can't understand. Adventurous people might come and try it. They might even be pleasantly surprised and tell their friends. But will the restaurant be a success overall? Doubtful.

You actually need to make your products accessible to your customers. To the dismissive hacks who say this is just for COD players, that's stupid. You didn't know what skills did what either. And so you made a list on paper. I bet you even drew little lines showing the pre-requisites, and you ... OMG SKILL NODES! BUSTED.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Nguruthos IX Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 607	Posted - 2013.06.17 20:49:00 - [1] - Quote All that was gained was a pretty UI to make it easier for COD players to figgure out their skills. But all the information was there before, if people could read... Find target, pen/paper make list of pre-req's. Skill into them. Wow that was hard! But now we've gained a severe limitation to how skills in Dust. The cost of setting up skills for this UI is that now everything is linear. While maxing skills for some weapon or suit, there is 0% cross over. (A common complaint about Planetside 2). Compare this to Eve where nearly every skill might lend some usefulness to another aspect of gameplay. What this ends up meaning is less horizontal skill flexibility, and more SP sinks and grinding. Eve's system worked better I think, even if it did require a second grade education to maneuver.
Crash Monster Snipers Anonymous 649	Posted - 2013.06.17 20:52:00 - [2] - Quote I'm pretty sure people were telling CCP this had to be fixed...
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 227	Posted - 2013.06.17 20:52:00 - [3] - Quote It's a skill tree and UI that makes sense for a console FPS. For that reason alone it was a good idea to me.
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 662	Posted - 2013.06.17 20:54:00 - [4] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: pen/paper make list of pre-req's. You just lost 90% of your non-Eve player base.

GM Vegas Game Masters C C P Alliance 516	Posted - 2013.06.17 20:54:00 - [5] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: Compare this to Eve where nearly every skill might lend some usefulness to another aspect of gameplay. Actually the latest EVE Online patch, Odyssey, introduced an ever more similar skill pattern as more 'racial' skills were introduced similarly to what is now in DUST 514. General skills are still there but if you want to specialise, you will need to make choices for now.

Crash Monster Snipers Anonymous 649	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:00:00 - [6] - Quote GM Vegas wrote: Actually the latest EVE Online patch, Odyssey, introduced an ever more similar skill pattern as more 'racial' skills were introduced similarly to what is now in DUST 514. General skills are still there but if you want to specialise, you will need to make choices for now. Hmm, suits... specialization area. Suit upgrades... general area. Weapon upgrades... general area.
Nguruthos IX Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 608	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:04:00 - [7] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: pen/paper make list of pre-req's. You just lost 90% of your non-Eve player base. Probably but I only played eve for like a month. I wouldn't call myself an Eve player. Unless you mean people who haven't had that limited background to understand the system. Then perhaps.
Nguruthos IX Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 608	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:06:00 - [8] - Quote GM Vegas wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: Compare this to Eve where nearly every skill might lend some usefulness to another aspect of gameplay. Actually the latest EVE Online patch, Odyssey, introduced an ever more similar skill pattern as more 'racial' skills were introduced similarly to what is now in DUST 514. General skills are still there but if you want to specialise, you will need to make choices for now. I wasn't aware of this. Nor am I aware how receptive the Eve player-base has been to such changes. Are the majority of them welcoming it or thinking "If it isn't broke, don't fix it"? I just wonder if there isn't a way to get some skill cross-over AND represent it in this type of UI.
Vavilia Lysenko Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 50	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:09:00 - [9] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: Compare this to Eve where nearly every skill might lend some usefulness to another aspect of gameplay. In EvE training Caldari Battleship is pretty useless if want to fly an Armageddon. In EvE training Projectile turrets is a bit stupid if you want to use Missiles. The majority of Racial Ships and Gun/Missile types have a very specific route to follow. The ancillary skills are not present in Dust514 and are really not needed either. The Dust skill tree is designed to be easier to comprehend. Want to use the AR then click the pretty circles in this branch of the tree. If you go far enough along the tree you will be able to increase the base damage of your AR (before mods are used). Want to use a Caldari Logi Suit, click the pretty circles in this branch of the tree. I don't see the problem.
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 664	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:10:00 - [10] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: I wasn't aware of this. Nor am I aware how receptive the Eve player-base has been to such changes. Are the majority of them welcoming it or thinking "If it isn't broke, don't fix it"? I just wonder if there isn't a way to get some skill cross-over AND represent it in this type of UI. I loved it, I got like 2-3 million free skill points. And it is sorta racialized. Like if you want to do Amarr you have to do ALL sorts of certain skills like Energy and lazers, if Mimnatar then missiles and cannons, if Gallente then Drones and cannons. If Caldari then missiles and missiles and missiles. Its pretty racialized even when its not. It just wasn't so obviously racialized in EVE.

Promethius Franklin DUST University Ivy League 12	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:16:00 - [11] - Quote GM Vegas wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: Compare this to Eve where nearly every skill might lend some usefulness to another aspect of gameplay. Actually the latest EVE Online patch, Odyssey, introduced an ever more similar skill pattern as more 'racial' skills were introduced similarly to what is now in DUST 514. General skills are still there but if you want to specialise, you will need to make choices for now. The racial changes in Odyssey aren't really comparable here as the trees don't require size based progression. Also specializations in eve are generalized vs being racially specialized here (there is no amarr logistics or assault ships skill in eve). Eve also has far more non specialized upgrade skills. Where we have 4 separate skills for saving CPU on weapons and weapon upgrades Eve has 1 across all weapons. Additionally there is one PG requirement reducing skill for weapons as compared to one for each weapon type here. The dropsuit upgrades tree is a good parallel to similar skills in eve, but the weapon upgrades tree is a polar opposite trading broad support skills for nested duplications of functionality.
Nguruthos IX Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 609	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:18:00 - [12] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: I wasn't aware of this. Nor am I aware how receptive the Eve player-base has been to such changes. Are the majority of them welcoming it or thinking "If it isn't broke, don't fix it"? I just wonder if there isn't a way to get some skill cross-over AND represent it in this type of UI. I loved it, I got like 2-3 million free skill points. And it is sorta racialized. Like if you want to do Amarr you have to do ALL sorts of certain skills like Energy and lazers, if Mimnatar then missiles and cannons, if Gallente then Drones and cannons. If Caldari then missiles and missiles and missiles. Its pretty racialized even when its not. It just wasn't so obviously racialized in EVE. Perhaps. But the thing is now that each skill can only be derived from one single other skill (As a direct predecessor). And then can only lead into one direct other skill past that. IIRC. It's a tree structure really and everything has to be molded to that.
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 470	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:19:00 - [13] - Quote This node system was a waste of time. The basic problem is that people didn't know how to make a BUILD ie weapon+suit+shields+equipment The node system does NOTHING to address that. Something like the Eve basic certificate system with some kind of link to the marketplace items (build) that each certificate would unlock is needed. This was a big waste of time. Would have preferred they spent some time on player trading instead of reorganizing deck chairs.
Promethius Franklin DUST University Ivy League 12	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:20:00 - [14] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: GM Vegas wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: Compare this to Eve where nearly every skill might lend some usefulness to another aspect of gameplay. Actually the latest EVE Online patch, Odyssey, introduced an ever more similar skill pattern as more 'racial' skills were introduced similarly to what is now in DUST 514. General skills are still there but if you want to specialise, you will need to make choices for now. I wasn't aware of this. Nor am I aware how receptive the Eve player-base has been to such changes. Are the majority of them welcoming it or thinking "If it isn't broke, don't fix it"? I just wonder if there isn't a way to get some skill cross-over AND represent it in this type of UI. Reactions are mixed, though all are grandfathered in to the functionality they had prior. That said this was to correct classes of ship skills which were inconsistent with the rest of the ship progression tree, a tree which dust does not replicate.
Promethius Franklin DUST University Ivy League 12	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:27:00 - [15] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: This node system was a waste of time. The basic problem is that people didn't know how to make a BUILD ie weapon+suit+shields+equipment The node system does NOTHING to address that. Something like the Eve basic certificate system with some kind of link to the marketplace items (build) that each certificate would unlock is needed. This was a big waste of time. Would have preferred they spent some time on player trading instead of reorganizing deck chairs. I find the node system far better than the old skill sheet. It does a far better job of presenting skills and prerequisites that the skill sheet did. It isn't the node system inherently that is problematic. If there is a problem it's a matter of what was put where, and questioning of whether prerequisites make sense for certain levels of functionality. For instance should it really take [weapon] op 5 and spec 4 just to save some PG on a gun?
Nguruthos IX Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 610	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:31:00 - [16] - Quote Basically I don't see what was really gained by this. Making the game more accessible at the cost of creative freedom and a hint of 'grindfest'. It may not have been a long-term, far sighted solution. I fear this may hurt Dust down the line, similar to the way re-hashing drop-ships into every aerial role (transport, logistics, triage, assault, bombers) may have been the result of a band-aid for the short term against CCP's original design. Things like this may prove in the future to be quite a thorn in the side of Dust. Especially if it was in direct opposition to the Grand Design then they will either remain as unsightly scars, or require surgical removal. Both of which are not fun to deal with.
Agent Joseph ROYAL SQUAD Shadow of the Apocalypse 2	Posted - 2013.06.17 23:07:00 - [17] - Quote Presenting complex information in a format that players can actually understand is not a waste of time. It's actually pretty damn important. CCP doesn't document their game systems. Everyone knows this. (Evidence: 10 years of EvE.) They create them. Sometimes they expose them transparently at the data level (via APIs) and then they wait for players to reverse-engineer them and document them. It's cost effective for CCP. And it's an enrichment activity for the players, keeping them from wasting their time on non-game activities. However, this strategy is also deeply, fundamentally stupid. A metaphor: imagine a restaurant that serves an ethnic cuisine nobody locally has ever heard of. The owner doesn't put pictures in the menu. He doesn't write descriptions of the meals. He just lists their foreign names that his customers can't understand. Adventurous people might come and try it. They might even be pleasantly surprised and tell their friends. But will the restaurant be a success overall? Doubtful. You actually need to make your products accessible to your customers. To the dismissive hacks who say this is just for COD players, that's stupid. You didn't know what skills did what either. And so you made a list on paper. I bet you even drew little lines showing the pre-requisites, and you ... OMG SKILL NODES! BUSTED.
Nguruthos IX Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 611	Posted - 2013.06.17 23:09:00 - [18] - Quote Agent Joseph wrote: Presenting complex information in a format that players can actually understand is not a waste of time. It's actually pretty damn important. CCP doesn't document their game systems. Everyone knows this. (Evidence: 10 years of EvE.) They create them. Sometimes they expose them transparently at the data level (via APIs) and then they wait for players to reverse-engineer them and document them. It's cost effective for CCP. And it's an enrichment activity for the players, keeping them from wasting their time on non-game activities. However, this strategy is also deeply, fundamentally stupid. A metaphor: imagine a restaurant that serves an ethnic cuisine nobody locally has ever heard of. The owner doesn't put pictures in the menu. He doesn't write descriptions of the meals. He just lists their foreign names that his customers can't understand. Adventurous people might come and try it. They might even be pleasantly surprised and tell their friends. But will the restaurant be a success overall? Doubtful. You actually need to make your products accessible to your customers. To the dismissive hacks who say this is just for COD players, that's stupid. You didn't know what skills did what either. And so you made a list on paper. I bet you even drew little lines showing the pre-requisites, and you ... OMG SKILL NODES! BUSTED. Well, no there's no need to draw lines. But I'd argue that you're confusing this skill prerequisites question with that of skill descriptions. An area also majorly lacking in Dust. The descriptions being vague and often incorrect are more akin to a restaurant with no pictures on the menu etc. On top of that we have no values to judge things by but I heard that's a CCP thing.
KING SALASI MAJOR DISTRIBUTION 56	Posted - 2013.06.17 23:57:00 - [19] - Quote I like eve skill book system way better.
PonyClause Rex TRAMADOL KNIGHTS 114	Posted - 2013.06.18 00:05:00 - [20] - Quote GM Vegas wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: Compare this to Eve where nearly every skill might lend some usefulness to another aspect of gameplay. Actually the latest EVE Online patch, Odyssey, introduced an ever more similar skill pattern as more 'racial' skills were introduced similarly to what is now in DUST 514. General skills are still there but if you want to specialise, you will need to make choices for now. Thats not what he meant, i believe he was referring to the core weapon, nav, and defensive skills which are aplicable to almost all ships you would fly regardless of race Your lack of knowledge in this regard concerns me



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