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DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 13:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Having no respecs in an FPS that has such depth with no form of tutorials or way to test new playstyles is a horrible idea.
It will only serve to drive people away, not keep them interested. |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 14:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
steadyhand amarr wrote:Everybody is now on same level now thet the skills work correctly. As a result no more respects. Getting your skills right is an important part of the game and rewards players who take a risk or gamble. In dust u need to learn to live with your choices
Except you can't plan your choices because they're constantly being fiddled with, nerfed out of relevance, or buffed to the point that they will soon be nerfed out of relevance.
Really the thought of not allowing respecs just feels like people who need to rely on spreadsheets to get the upper hand don't want other players to have the chance to fix uneducated (not really their fault, they shouldn't have to dig through pages and pages of threads and youtube videos to find this stuff out) choices that they've made.
Also, why let people move out of a playstyle they've been playing for months? It's far more entertaining to let them grind for a few more months to get to the point where their new playstyle is even worth fielding in any match that even remotely matters.
If there was actually stuff to do in DUST, then maybe, just maybe, I wouldn't mind this mentality. Unfortunately, it's a lobby shooter, and forcing people to stick to a single playstyle with no hope of changing it other than biting the bullet and grinding for months is absurd.
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DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 15:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aesiron Kor-Azor wrote:Chromosome?
You mean Uprising...
I imagine it's a swipe at us still being in Beta instead of full release |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 15:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jin Robot wrote:Wow, I thought we had moved on from this "more respecs" topic. I suggest starting a "DUST is doomed" or "I am leaving" much more current QQ subjects. Not all of us are as convinced of CCPs infinite wisdom, I guess
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DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 15:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jin Robot wrote:Well, this is not something that feedback(QQ) will change. It is a design choice. Here comes the snarky bit. If you want a different game, feel free to start your own game company.
I don't want a different game. I'm so close to being done with gaming all together it's not even funny.
And it may very well be, when this game starts hemorrhaging players as AAA shooters start being released on these new consoles. Forcing players to stick to the same boring build day in and day out, month in and month out, when these new games are likely filled to brim with different playstyles, you may very well see more of this.
Like I've said before though, if DUST wasn't a lobby shooter, and actually had any form of persistence or meaning whatsoever, then maybe, just maybe, I could agree with this mentality.
But DUST is primarily a lobby shooter. And playing the exact same build in a lobby shooter gets very boring. |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 16:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Donnerwerk wrote:Now you allready know that stuff may change over time. Harden up and prepare for it by saving SP or don't if you feel confident that your stuff won't get nerfed again So just like AFK, the best way to play DUST is to not
Got it. |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 16:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:DUST Fiend wrote: So just like AFK, the best way to play DUST is to not
Got it.
I'm so pissed off, I don't even want to AFK because it'll give them the satisfaction that there's one more person going towards their projected server turnout. I've never AFK'd because if I did I would quit this game.
Despite my constant negativity around here, I would really like to see something become of this game. A few of you might remember back towards the beginning, even partway through, I was a CCP fanboy through and through, defending them through thick and thin.
Yea, the times, they are a changin' |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 16:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jin Robot wrote:Then do that, leave. Its like you are in line to get a free Dali painting and then give "feedback" on how you dont want any melting clocks in it. It is not a bug, it is a design choice. If you dont want it, accept it and leave.
I'm sorry that some of us have foresight and would actually like to see the already terrible player retention increase, as opposed to decrease.
Just because something is a design choice doesn't mean it's automatically right
Donnerwerk wrote:when did I say anything about afking? You didn't, but what you're saying is don't use your SP because CCP is unpredictable and doesn't communicate decisions like this with us. So instead of playing the game and using your SP to enhance your experience, you sit on it, in the hopes that CCP gets something right SOONtm.
AKA, AFKing with your SP |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 16:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Donnerwerk wrote:i liked the laser rifle. got nerfed to the ground. do you see me complain? Addapt and overcome buttercup
So when the weapon or suit you like gets nerfed to the ground, and your playstyle becomes a chore at best, I guess you can adapt by grinding out another month or two of SP (or pay CCP $$ to help move you along) with your now gimped fit in order to get into a new style, that very well might suffer the exact same fate
You got it, buttercup |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 16:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
Donnerwerk wrote:do you have a bankaccount or do you just spend all you money on payday? Hoping nothing unforseen will happen?
Do you not pay any of your bills, and just sit on all your money until you think you have enough to make you happy? |
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DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 16:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jin Robot wrote:If the only road to success was to compromise your vision and start doing things in a more traditional way, I would rather it die than turn into a shadow of what it started to be. It will succeed or it will fail, more important imo is seeing those that have faith in the vision and not catering to people who are not ready or willing to be apart of it.
Don't even ******* talk to me about the god damn vision.
I'm sick and tired about hearing about their vision. You know how other companies show you their vision? They give you something to bite into. They release finished games. Sure they might charge you for the pleasure, and even charge you for their expansions, but you know what? You generally are playing a completed game.
Don't even mention the vision until we have some kind of MMO aspects in this game.
Vison. Yea, you're right, CCP <3 LSD me thinks. |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 16:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jin Robot wrote:CCP is not "other companies" I know that, I play DUST
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DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 16:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
I've just never once played a lobby shooter where you were only allowed to use one build for months on end unless you paid the company to get you there quicker, or were forced to play in highly gimped fits (low SP) in order to enjoy other aspects of the game.
MMO's cover this by allowing you to do all sorts of things not related to shooting another player in the face as you slowly level up. Lobby shooters don't have this luxury. |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 17:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jin Robot wrote:At one point nobody had ever ridden a bicycle. That did not mean A. Nobody wanted to ride one. B. It should not have been attempted. That has to be one of the worst and most random analogies I've ever seen....
All I'm saying is that the only thing to do in this game is shoot people in the face.
Since the SP grind was increased without giving any real content in between, you have to literally spend months and months and months (less, if you open up your wallet) in order to play any other meaningful playstyles. New players have NO way of knowing how these will perform, hell, even vets are often left in the dark and forced to search through third party software to try and plan out builds that may very well be ripped apart with little notice.
There is no meaning behind what you do. You shoot people. It's a lobby shooter. There are virtually NO mmo aspects that give this game anything fresh. The mechanics and graphics are basic and even subpar at times. The game modes are horrifically boring, and we've been playing them for over a year now. (hell, even Domination is just an old game mode brought back to life)
People acting like your build is "a choice that matters" are still caught in the lala land that CCPs admittedly small marketing devision has trapped you in. (well, it matters if you want to be competitive. So, it's not that it actually has any real impact or meaning, it's just that if you don't get it right the first time, then you simply don't deserve to ever get it right, not without wasting thousands of SP for your trouble) |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 17:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jin Robot wrote:You dont understand the analogy because your mind is closed to the concept. You stating you have never played a fps like this as some kind of point about how CCP should just start doing things like a mainstream FPS backs the analogy. You have never seen it, its different ( remember know, my only stated opinion in this thread is anti constant respecs) and you are not ready or willing to try a new approach. Its not a bug, its not a glitch.
So you'd rather have the plague than the flu because you've never seen it before? |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 17:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:I've just never once played a lobby shooter where you were only allowed to use one build for months on end unless you paid the company to get you there quicker, or were forced to play in highly gimped fits (low SP) in order to enjoy other aspects of the game.
MMO's cover this by allowing you to do all sorts of things not related to shooting another player in the face as you slowly level up. Lobby shooters don't have this luxury. I am glad dust 514 isn't one of them but planetside 2 is. ?
Isn't what, a lobby shooter? |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 17:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
jenza aranda wrote:no more respecs. So you're actively pushing for detailed tutorials, full weapon and suit information, and ways to test suits and playstyles extensively before actually investing in them?
You know, even car dealerships let you test drive the car, and they don't make you drive a terrible beaten up car in order to judge if you like the new one or not. |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 17:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Wow, so you test drive candy bars, and routers, and coffee cups, and lawn mowers? Your "even car dealers" is a little disingenuous.
Now, I agree that all of this should be in game, but Dust, like Eve, rewards those who use their brain. Using your brain means asking "what can I find out" before spending money or SP, whereas stupid means asking "why didn't you tell me"
I don't exactly call buying a candy bar, router, coffee cup, or even a lawn mower to be much of an investment
Putting months and months of your time into a single build in order to remain competitive; that's an investment, like buying a car is an investment.
I used my brain, I went for ARs and Heavies so that way I can be repped by my squad, have access to lolmilitia forge guns, and actually take a hit (also in anticipation of Commando's, which already look horrible....2 highs and 1 low at proto...HAHAHAHAHA)
Fact is you can't expect to retain a healthy number of FPS players if you don't tell them anything about the skill system or progression and then go LOL should have stuck your head on google for a month and figured it out yourself. Oh, and it's your fault that CCP nerfed the crap out of that suit you thought you liked.
Too bad bro, adapt or die
I really am stupid though. If I was smart, I would have sat on my SP from my respec for the next 3 months, maybe by then we'd have some form of stability in this game and my decisions might actually be worth a damn. (as I've said before, the best way to play this game is to not. Don't spend your SP, and sit in the MCC all day) |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 17:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Playing a game is not an investment. It's a pastime. Also, a car is not an investment, it's a purchase. It does cost a lot of money though, but that doesn't make it an investment. You should have diversified, as I said in my earlier post. Just like in real life. Picking the "best" isn't necessarily using your brain.
Also, I did agree that this stuff should be in game. But, using your brain, means working with what you've got. The future is always uncertain, so you should hedge your bets.
Don't tell me to diversify, I did that for almost 8 months; noobs and people who can't decide what they want to play diversify. This game doesn't reward you for diversifying unless you're waaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead in SP, and even then.
So perhaps investment was too strong of a word, but all in all, the point remains; you dump your SP in the hopes that your choices don't get ripped apart / were well educated, or you pretend like SP doesn't exist and further push the fact that this is a lobby shooter with little to no variation, despite what would appear like plenty of variation in suits and equipment.
It's been over a year, and you know what 90% of players still put in their high slots?
Complex damage mods or shield mods
I need to just stop this discussion, because every day I try to like this game lately I just end up hating it that much more. |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 18:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:I don't really know what to tell you. I agree that there should be more info in game, but you're still stuck on "should" rather than "is". Dust will always be changing. This is why I diversify.
If I was stuck on "should" as opposed to "is", I would still be flying dropships |
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DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 18:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jin Robot wrote:If the trolls and crybabies left, I do think we would enjoy it more. I have said before, I would rather it not succeed than be changed because of a bunch of whiners.
So what you're saying is that we never should have had a closed or open beta, and that CCP shouldn't listen to any feedback because it's people "trolling or crying?"
So basically unless you lick CCPs feet and wag your tail for them, you don't deserve to be here, amirite? |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 19:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:The error I got on the first day of the alert system came out. "You cannot join this match, this match is full"
The week after they added a queue:
"You are now 47,850,130,527 in queue for the alert." WTF?
I've actually never played PS2, don't have much desire to. I was just stating that DUST is a lobby shooter, not an MMOFPS.
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DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 22:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Jin Robot wrote:CCP should have never allowed the optional respec. Give a brat an inch, they will cry for a mile. Bugged weapons, misleading skills that don't do as advertised, stealth nerfs SP sinks... is there any other way I can spell things out for you so you can understand? Probably not.
Jin is convinced that his spreadsheet powers are 1337 and anyone who doesn't have Spreadhseet Master skilled to V is just S.O.L.
Also, I LOVE how closed Beta vets know that this game is still in Beta
Full release; my dropship |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.13 22:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:You know what the funny part is? I actually used a spreadsheet and planned my SP allocation out 100% to where I wanted to be
Me too, it literally worked out to the exact CPU / PG that I needed
The only two things I wanted to do in this game were fly dropships (lol) and shotgun scout, and while shotgun scouts can sometimes put up descent numbers, a big part of that is the shoddy hit detection still making bullets randomly vanish when they hit scouts.
Scouts are already in a bad spot, I wasn't about to skill into them only to have the game get a performance boost and directly nerf them even further. |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.14 04:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
I'm still waiting to see a logical explanation for no respecs other than "EVE doesn't let you", "your choice matters", "no more respecs" or "cuz CCP says so" |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.14 04:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:I'm still waiting to see a logical explanation for no respecs other than "EVE doesn't let you", "your choice matters", "no more respecs" or "cuz CCP says so" I'm on your side about respecs right now because Dust is still incomplete, but I got a serious question for you: Once we have all the racial weapons, suits, and vehicles, tutorials, a test lab mode to preview weapons and gear before you invest SP, and CCP stopped changing everything on a whim, would you be fine with there being no respecs?
I actually really like the idea of being able to purchase a skill respec for something like 250K SP or maybe even 500K SP, but I wouldn't mind not having any more respecs once we go into official release, no.
While we're still in beta though, we do need ways to deal with old suits being phased in, and riding the wave that is weapon and vehicle balancing.
And this would just be an SP reset, NOT an asset reset (aside from skill book costs). So if you blew all your ISK on fits for your current build, you'd be stuck with them until however long it takes to get an NPC vendor or player trading. |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.14 05:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
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DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.14 13:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:As I posted in Deluxe's thread: I'd normally feel the same as Caz here regarding respecs, but let's be honest here. The gear balance well.....isn't. And the sands have by no means stopped shifting, I'm sure this won't be the last time we see stat changes to both weapons, dropsuits, and vehicles - and often these don't end up anywhere near where we as a community would like them. With such a large degree of inconsistency, I'm personally much more open minded about semi-frequent respecs, Perhaps once a quarter or once a month - even if there was an associated aurum cost. When you think about it - nothing we love is sacred right now. No matter what we invest in, there is no guarantee it's going to behave the same way tomorrow, and just from a customer service perspective if the gunplay meta is going to see-saw so wildly for the next several months at least as the development process (hopefully) improves, everything about locking people into gear they're unhappy with screams "unfun". Ultimately, skill point selections need to be meaningful - but in the meantime, I'm feeling much more Antoinette about this - I say let the people have their respecs each time there's a major shift. Is anyone really feeling like we're well out of beta mode anyways?
Glad to hear it, seriously.
I don't know if I'd agree on AUR respecs though, personally. Quarterly optional respecs, or even 2 per character with a yearly respec as Caz suggested would be greatly appreciated until the game is actually in a somewhat stable state.
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DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.14 13:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
Deluxe Edition wrote:FatalFlaw V1 wrote:I was reading an E3 review on this game and they brought up that this game did not yet have a release date. I think people tend to forget this game is in open beta.
Respecs with major changes are probably warranted until "release." It released a month ago today on 5/14/2013 (they wanted the snazzy 5/14 release date) HAppy 1 month anniversary dust :p Any closed beta vet though knows that we're still in open beta right now.
That whole thing put a bad taste in my mouth in general thanks to Bethesda and their stupid 11/11/11 crap with Skyrim. At least they advertised that date when they released their unfinished game. They told us about the release like, a week in advance for DUST before releasing their unfinished game >_< |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.14 14:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:Invested your SP like a moron? No respec.
The funny thing is that this sentence can be taken quite literally.
Invest your SP, at all, and you're a moron.
Much better to AFK with your SP then spend it, while you wait for the game to be released and balance changes to finally settle down. |
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DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.14 16:25:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:Still waiting for someone to state a good reason for a respec except for "they Nerfz meh"
Looks back through thread....
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DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.14 16:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
A'Real Fury wrote:CCP needs to adapt to this new enterprise or more effectively manage the expectations, desires, and demands of its current and potential future player base.
If CCP, and the eve player base, can not Adapt then Dust will surely die or be that minor expansion to Eve a few players have heard about but have no interest in playing and certainly not pay into for boosters etc.
I know a LOT of gamers both online and off, and talk to them frequently about my favorite games. I used to constantly talk about DUST to them and try to explain its potential and that it was cool and unique.
Now?
I tell them to make an account and a character so they can be getting passive SP, but other than that, just stay far away for right now. I feel it's better to not draw much attention to DUST in its current state. It's best if we don't see too many new players, because first impressions are critical, and DUST's is well....dusty |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.15 13:52:00 -
[33] - Quote
Anarchide wrote:Let them grind for a change
How do you think they got those huge amounts of skill points?
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DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.15 15:08:00 -
[34] - Quote
Anarchide wrote:Quote it all or don't quote at all; you put it out of context.
You should feel bad and ask for a respec.
How is it out of context? You say they need to grind for a change, like new players. Believe it or not, old players were once new players.
If I got a respec, I would play DUST the proper way: I would sit on my SP for months, and run around with nothing but militia BPO's until this game goes into official release. |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.15 15:44:00 -
[35] - Quote
Anarchide wrote:I meant they'll be able to insta-max out every new skills that comes out; newer players won't. If the game was properly balanced by CCP, than that would be a non factor, because they have to give something up first in order to gain something.
You want that new anti matter rifle that just came out? Well, you're going to have to give up that Mass Driver you've been using.
The problem here arises from "FoTM" which only exists because CCP is still learning how to balance an FPS. Having periodic respecs or some kind of system that allows you to "refund" some of your SP periodically would literally cause no harm to the game in a balanced environment outside of hurting some peoples feelings, because they can't grasp that EVE and DUST are two wildly different animals |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.15 15:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:If all the content were available, skills weren't bugged, and CCP didn't nerf things on a whim, do you thinks we would even be having this discussion? Not with the reasonable half of the player base, at least
I still think we need some kind of partial respec system, even in a fully released environment, but full respecs would be primarily unnecessary. I still like the idea of trading something like 250K SP for a respec, since that permanently sets you behind. Only people who really screwed up their build, or just hate what they're playing would go for it.
A partial respec system would do something like slowly accumulate in the background, allowing you to remove X levels from any number of skills, and allocate them elsewhere. Something like being able to take 1 level out of something per week, or maybe just a little more so that each month, you could take 5 points out of something and allocate it elsewhere, paying for new skill books as needed.
This would allow players who only slightly screwed up their skills to slowly correct them, while players who really screwed things up could sacrifice a chunk of their SP to get the exact build they've been working on. |
DUST Fiend
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:47:00 -
[37] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:I still can't believe people are arguing against respecs in an unfinished game.
They aren't.
Go back and read the thread, they aren't actually arguing.
It's stamping their feet in the ground and going "CCP said no, and no means no" |
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