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I wonder how matchmaking will work. (speculation/input)

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Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 455	Posted - 2013.06.13 00:27:00 - [1] - Quote I believe Gear-only matchmaking would be sufficient. These latest iterations of Dust are heavily skewed in favor of gear making the difference over RL and IG skills. The skill bonuses we get from spending SP are simply not enough of an advantage to warrant matchmaking based solely off SP or WP. Here are my thoughts: If we do manage to actually get a working economy in Dust, I would like to see a market for mid tier equipment. Right now they're simply stepping stones to protogear. If there was a matchmaking system based off gear, veteran players could still participate in matches, provided they "downgrade" their gear to an appropriate level. This solves the problem of having too low of a high-sp population as well as encouraging players to "max out" fitting and support skills instead of rushing straight into prototype gear. As an added benefit, testing and balancing will actually be possible because there will be, hopefully, fewer variables that complicate the discussion. Needless to say -- Corp, PC and FW matches should remain "anything goes" with zero matchmaking IMO.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 455	Posted - 2013.06.13 01:45:00 - [2] - Quote Anita Hardone wrote: Problem will still persist lol. Core skills.... Abron Garr wrote: I believe Gear-only matchmaking would be sufficient. These latest iterations of Dust are heavily skewed in favor of gear making the difference over RL and IG skills. The skill bonuses we get from spending SP are simply not enough of an advantage to warrant matchmaking based solely off SP or WP. Here are my thoughts: If we do manage to actually get a working economy in Dust, I would like to see a market for mid tier equipment. Right now they're simply stepping stones to protogear. If there was a matchmaking system based off gear, veteran players could still participate in matches, provided they "downgrade" their gear to an appropriate level. This solves the problem of having too low of a high-sp population as well as encouraging players to "max out" fitting and support skills instead of rushing straight into prototype gear. As an added benefit, testing and balancing will actually be possible because there will be, hopefully, fewer variables that complicate the discussion. Needless to say -- Corp, PC and FW matches should remain "anything goes" with zero matchmaking IMO. this system doesnt just go off of WP and SP though. Accuracy K/D average Kill Streak Time played Score Per minute everything... First, core skills are not nearly as hard to max out or as big of a factor as gear is. Armor upgrades gives 25% armor boost, that's essentially one or two hits from an AR and on lower tier equipment, those boosts are even more marginal. Second, trying to add more variables to a matchmaking system means you are giving CCP more chances to screw up. Third, you're going to have a hard time filling up matches on the right end of the bell curve. And some of those stats disproportionately affect different roles. You're going to end up with matches literally full of snipers or full of vehicles (that might be fun to watch though).
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 456	Posted - 2013.06.13 01:51:00 - [3] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Abron Garr wrote: I believe Gear-only matchmaking would be sufficient. These latest iterations of Dust are heavily skewed in favor of gear making the difference over RL and IG skills. The skill bonuses we get from spending SP are simply not enough of an advantage to warrant matchmaking based solely off SP or WP. Here are my thoughts: If we do manage to actually get a working economy in Dust, I would like to see a market for mid tier equipment. Right now they're simply stepping stones to protogear. If there was a matchmaking system based off gear, veteran players could still participate in matches, provided they "downgrade" their gear to an appropriate level. This solves the problem of having too low of a high-sp population as well as encouraging players to "max out" fitting and support skills instead of rushing straight into prototype gear. As an added benefit, testing and balancing will actually be possible because there will be, hopefully, fewer variables that complicate the discussion. Needless to say -- Corp, PC and FW matches should remain "anything goes" with zero matchmaking IMO. Why not just a combination of all the above? Lifetime WP, lifetime SP, and (not sure how to track this) but average fitting meta level. I would say KDR, but since things are so exploitable, how many times you die vs how many times you killed someone is near meaningless. I just believe in keeping it as simple as possible. I'd start off with a matchmaking system based off of gear, and then if there are still issues of pub stomping, then add in variables one at a time. You're never going to have a perfect system obviously. Dust has many separate roles, and they're going to complicate a good matchmaker.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 456	Posted - 2013.06.13 02:01:00 - [4] - Quote Acezero 44 wrote: ELO match maker, based on who you kill/die to. not win ratio, or anything else,. everyone starts at 1000, die -1, kill +1.. done if you kill someone with 500, and you have 2000, its only a + 0.3, if you die to them its a - 10 and so on. this is all just simple number ratio's to help one understand it,. its a concept from chess rankings,. and it works well in shooters. How many of those shooters had a gear disparity?
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 456	Posted - 2013.06.13 02:15:00 - [5] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: Gear would probably be flagged according to Meta, rendering invalid fittings should you attempt to equip gear with to high of Meta. Simple and effective.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 456	Posted - 2013.06.13 02:20:00 - [6] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Master Jaraiya wrote: Gear would probably be flagged according to Meta, rendering invalid fittings should you attempt to equip gear with to high of Meta. Doesn't that pretty much screw Amarr assaults? Yeah, all this talk of matchmaking and balance presupposes a competent Dev team.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 456	Posted - 2013.06.13 02:36:00 - [7] - Quote Acezero 44 wrote: i dont get the whole gear thing,.. Say in concept, at the vary top of the match maker, No seriously look up, up more,.. Ok so who's up here? wait for it,.. /GASP,. "the best players in the best gear" Let's assume that player is currently an AR spec'd Assault. What happens if that player decides to spec into AV? The guy could just keep grinding in his AR set until he has enough sp, but this discourages players from trying out different builds and roles. Also, and this is the most important part, how the hell do you even BEGIN to balance a game when people have such a large gear disparity?
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 456	Posted - 2013.06.13 02:50:00 - [8] - Quote Acezero 44 wrote: Abron Garr wrote: Acezero 44 wrote: i dont get the whole gear thing,.. Say in concept, at the vary top of the match maker, No seriously look up, up more,.. Ok so who's up here? wait for it,.. /GASP,. "the best players in the best gear" Let's assume that player is currently an AR spec'd Assault. What happens if that player decides to spec into AV? The guy could just keep grinding in his AR set until he has enough sp, but this discourages players from trying out different builds and roles. Your idea also encourages people to play in prototype gear 24/7. Also, and this is the most important part, how the hell do you even BEGIN to balance a game when people have such a large gear disparity? everyone has a crutch,. the good players have more. =) if someone fears there own rank,. then the same players fear there own k/d ratio right now.. Hey that's great and all, but how about you actually address what I wrote.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 456	Posted - 2013.06.13 02:51:00 - [9] - Quote Anita Hardone wrote: This gear balancing wont solve anything. The battles will play out the same, in favor of those with more SP and skills, and someone with more SP is usually the better player because they have spent more time playing.... This is why we need what ive stated. Instead of matching people based on gear, how about trying to show a players skill level is, based on what they get done in a match. Id someone proto stomps all day and has high stats, then they should be more likely to be put with other proto stompers. Because matches literally full of snipers, full of logis or full of heavies doesn't interest me.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 456	Posted - 2013.06.13 03:04:00 - [10] - Quote IceShifter Childhaspawn wrote: I do not understand match making. You only get better -playing better players. You watch a better player do something that kills you, /facepalm "Why didn't I think of that" and move on. I frankly suck at this game. I am not going to quit because of it, I'm going to try harder. Sometimes you get stomped. BFD, move on to the next one. We are playing as Mercenaries in a Scifi universe. Who said it should be easy? That is what I am perceiving this discussion to be about. Making the game easier. Really. I don't understand the thought. How many Titans got blown up in Hisec today? How many DDs went off in lowsec? How many bubbles do you see in hi/lowsec?

Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 457	Posted - 2013.06.13 03:10:00 - [11] - Quote Anita Hardone wrote: Abron Garr wrote: Anita Hardone wrote: This gear balancing wont solve anything. The battles will play out the same, in favor of those with more SP and skills, and someone with more SP is usually the better player because they have spent more time playing.... This is why we need what ive stated. Instead of matching people based on gear, how about trying to show a players skill level is, based on what they get done in a match. Id someone proto stomps all day and has high stats, then they should be more likely to be put with other proto stompers. Because matches literally full of snipers, full of logis or full of heavies doesn't interest me. Dude, this already happens right now, its pretty random, but it happens. But if that happens with a legitament match maker, then obviously something is broke balancing wise. HMG heavies generally have low accuracy. Snipers generally have high accuracy. So tell me how a matchmaking system with accuracy as a variable is going to make sure that matches don't end up having 32 snipers or 32 heavies? I'm not saying your idea is a bad one, I'm just saying lets start off with gear and and variables as we go along.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 457	Posted - 2013.06.13 03:12:00 - [12] - Quote Acezero 44 wrote: Abron Garr wrote: Acezero 44 wrote: Abron Garr wrote: Acezero 44 wrote: i dont get the whole gear thing,.. Say in concept, at the vary top of the match maker, No seriously look up, up more,.. Ok so who's up here? wait for it,.. /GASP,. "the best players in the best gear" Let's assume that player is currently an AR spec'd Assault. What happens if that player decides to spec into AV? The guy could just keep grinding in his AR set until he has enough sp, but this discourages players from trying out different builds and roles. Your idea also encourages people to play in prototype gear 24/7. Also, and this is the most important part, how the hell do you even BEGIN to balance a game when people have such a large gear disparity? everyone has a crutch,. the good players have more. =) if someone fears there own rank,. then the same players fear there own k/d ratio right now.. Hey that's great and all, but how about you actually address what I wrote. but i did,. /shrug your saying this player has built a crutch with skill/gear, so he is scared to try new things, and drop in rating.. You just described 99% of the player base.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 457	Posted - 2013.06.13 03:25:00 - [13] - Quote Acezero 44 wrote: Abron Garr wrote: You just described 99% of the player base. the problem,.? Like I said, the best players dont need to crutch there rank, the ones that do, well,.. to bad for them,. Let the ELO sort us out. The problems is that Dust is not (well ,not supposed to be) a run of the mill shooter. Different gear, tactics, roles means that it's not as simple as run & shoot.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 457	Posted - 2013.06.13 03:35:00 - [14] - Quote Thanks hall monitor
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 457	Posted - 2013.06.13 03:51:00 - [15] - Quote Acezero 44 wrote: Abron Garr wrote: Acezero 44 wrote: Abron Garr wrote: You just described 99% of the player base. the problem,.? Like I said, the best players dont need to crutch there rank, the ones that do, well,.. to bad for them,. Let the ELO sort us out. The problems is that Dust is not (well ,not supposed to be) a run of the mill shooter. Different gear, tactics, roles means that it's not as simple as run & shoot. I think we are on topic still, so here I go.. Roles can be left to all the other various turf wars Dust should fix up and add more to. Squads in a match maker will just rise faster in rank, roles always work in the squad crutch, <---- love this term btw. I play scout, 100% of the time. I feel my role,. no problems here. I see dust as MMO bg style pvp,. not a shooter, so lets delete this run of the mill shooter thing.. No offense, but that could not have been more painful to read, but I think I know what you're saying. I just don't think ELO is adequate for Dust.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 457	Posted - 2013.06.13 04:20:00 - [16] - Quote Sorry, I just would prefer a gear based system so that people who wish to experiment or try different roles are not punished for dong so.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 457	Posted - 2013.06.13 04:23:00 - [17] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: ELO by its very nature includes everything about a player because it is only concerned with one thing, the result, your success rate. The only addition to ELO you would need is a slight modifier based on gear meta level. Otherwise with pure ELO if you decided to take off your proto-gear to earn/save ISK then you'd be outside your overall "ranking" bracket and in over your head. It would take too many matches to readjust, same with when you put it back on. So it just needs to be pure ELO*(Small_Gear_Meta_Adjustment) Okay so then that's not "just an ELO system". As long as gear is a variable then I'm happy.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 457	Posted - 2013.06.13 04:34:00 - [18] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: Elo (it's a name by the way not an acronym) type system would work if effectiveness was solely determined by killing people. What happens to our professional logi players, dropship pilots etc? IF warpoint rewards were balanced between different playstyles then there is probably someway that they could be used to implement a similar ranking system. Pure Elo based on kills however will not work. Been saying that for pages. Everyone's swinging their **** around here about their favorite ranking system.