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Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
271
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Posted - 2013.06.10 00:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've been planning this post for a while, but I'd like to start by quoting someone who brings up the main point.
Ludvig Enraga wrote:stlcarlos989 wrote:Lol all you murder taxi drivers are just putting yourselves closer and closer to getting the LAV mechanics changed. Look at the dropships in closed beta, when was the last time you saw someone crushing people with dropship? I think ppl who drive murder LAV's dont' really care about LAVs or LAV skills. They just use free ones. On a different note, what's the purpose of an LAV except for taking ppl from point A to B? Their gun is too weak to be useful. And I cant believe that they were invented to be murder taxis - or am i wrong?
*** BINGO!!! ***
You just hit on the #1 point that everyone keeps missing about LAVs: They're not meant to be strong -- they're meant to transport people.
Everyone keeps whining about how hard they are to kill and trying to think of ways to nerf them. The real way to balance the LAV is to think about it's role and remove or reduce the effectiveness of every other role it tries to perform. In other words, yes, it transports people. It does it well. That's it's role. It also is great at ramming people. That's not it's role. Of course it's possible, but there clearly are not enough down-sides to someone choosing to use the LAV for this purpose.
And we all know what the problem is -- the things won't f***ing die. They're clearly too well-armored. Bullets are pointless. So are locus grenades. AV grenades barely scratch shield tanked LAVs. Proximity mines are not nearly powerful enough considering the preparation time and prediction of movement required. Swarm launchers are nice, but not quite powerful enough and its user is severely hindered for any other combat role.
Whether you'd like to admit it or not, the LAV should have no purpose in an Ambush match other than initially engaging the enemy. And by engage, I don't mean ram into them -- I mean drive to them. Sure you should be able to ram into enemies, but that only makes sense if you can surprise them. You should be rewarded for that. When I see this nonsense where a Caldari Logi LAV is openly ramming groups of people with no sense of self-preservation, something is wrong.
And here's the really tough question: Would it be so bad if LAVs were really easy to kill?
"That's BULL****!" the LAV spec'd merc would say. "I put all my points into LAV and it only takes 4 regular AV grenades to take it down??" "Yes, you glorified taxi driver," I'd reply, "maybe you should perform the true role of the LAV rather than trying to ram people with no fear of repercussions."
From a practical point of view, not much would change if LAVs had significantly less HP. Even half as much HP would be completely fine. How so? Well, think of the LAV as the "Scout" of the vehicle classes. It's their job to speed tank. When they get in trouble, they can race off like mad. The can also appear and disappear in an instant, smearing those who look don't look both ways before crossing open terrain. What they can't do is hang out amidst a group of red dots going in forward and reverse for 30 meters over and over while they helplessly plink away at the LAVs thousands of shield points. The fact that it's currently a problem tells us something is wrong.
If you think that the LAV would be far less effective with half as many HP, then all I've got to tell you is that you're using it wrong. If you want to use it like a weapon, accept the fact that you're the scout of vehicles -- not the heavy. Ram people quickly and get away. You can take a few hits, but you certainly can't hang out in a group of red dots for very long.
But, as we all know, this isn't the case. Right now the LAV *IS* the heavy instead of the scout.
Now for the solutions: (I never bring up problems without offering solutions.)
1. What I want to happen: - The HP of LAVs is severely reduced, as it is now recognized as primarily a transport vehicle. Those who have dumped many points into the LAV will benefit most from modules involving shield/armor repair, speed, and turret usage.
2. What will most likely happen: - Flux variants of both AV grenades and proximity mines will appear to counteract the shield tanking LAVs.
Option 2 is tricky because it's not like you'll always have those grenades or mines in your loadout when a shield-tanked LAV shows up. Definitely not perfect. Also, if you think that Flux AV grenades/prox mines are OP, keep in mind that while they're always useful at first (everything takes shield damage before armor damage), they are balanced because they can never make the final kill. You'd need a friend or another weapon for that. |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
271
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 00:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Oh wait.. I know what's coming. You guys think I'm upset because I got ran over by LAVs too much. Truthfully, I almost never get run over by LAVs because I stick to terrain they can't manage and I'm constantly thinking about the threat. I don't have a problem with LAVs running people over -- I have a problem with them not dying fast enough when they make the stupid mistake of standing still or driving recklessly right next to a group of red dots. |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
272
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 01:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Longshot Ravenwood wrote:Completely right. LAVs are just for moving people around, that's why they never bothered to put a turret onto it. That's why the advanced LAVs are Scout LAVs (For surveying & moving around the batleflied) & Logistics LAVs (For helping support troops and other vehicles). They're clearly meant to be destroyed by a single AV grenade, regardless of how you decide to outfit them.
It's impossible to kill an LAV with an assault rifle, shotgun, etc... because you can't attack any of the passengers of the vehicle, the gunner or driver, etc.. They're called murder taxis because all they do is murder people. No one can be bothered to lay down Proximity Mines in clever locations to blow them up, or shoot them with swarm launchers. They're clearly what the survival drone mode will be based on. Nothing but murder taxis running helpless players down.
Yeah, I totally said one AV grenade kills them. Nice try at sarcasm, but you're still dead wrong. And I hate to break it to you, but making them weaker doesn't really reduce their effectiveness at those roles: 1. Turrets are for hit-and-run tactics, not sitting still and mowing people down. That's what tanks are for. 2. They can still repair other vehicles even if they're weaker. If the tank or whatever is being repaired can't protect the Logi LAV, then that's their problem. 3. Prox mines are useless at the moment. See this thread. 4. Swarm launchers are good, but... yeah I went over that point, too. Thanks for ignoring it. 5. I have no idea what a survival drone is. I don't care if murder taxis run people over -- I only care that they don't die quick enough. |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
273
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Posted - 2013.06.10 01:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
boba's fetta wrote:no one can be bothered to kill them? weird ive been splatting them all night. logi lav's are tougher but i reckon a good sp investment into improving my swarm launcher will take care of that. Livin' on a prayer, eh? Some direct evidence about a way to definitively take out a shield-tanked Logi LAV would be nice, though. |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
273
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Posted - 2013.06.10 01:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
ladwar wrote:balance HAVs so that more HAVs come back to that role and all of your LAVs will fade away back into balance. the problem isn't LAVs its HAVs. That's an interesting point, but I still think the true role of the LAV needs to be addressed. It's fine that it runs people over, but it's being used as a tank when it shouldn't be. |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
273
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Posted - 2013.06.10 01:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Longshot Ravenwood wrote:boba's fetta wrote:no one can be bothered to kill them? weird ive been splatting them all night. logi lav's are tougher but i reckon a good sp investment into improving my swarm launcher will take care of that. It's like you're playing rock, paper, scissors -- vehicles are rock, anti-vehicle are paper, and anti-infantry are scissors, and everyone keeps throwing scissors against rock and kittening about losing. "But my two AV nades fit on my tac-ar/smg assault fitting don't kill murder taxies". Tell me more about how you can't coordinate with a squad to kill an LAV. Apparently you've never witnessed a shield-tanked logi LAV driving back and forth in a group of red dots who are all trying to take it out with prox mines, AV grenades, swarm launchers, and whatever else they had on them. The most distinguishing part of this event -- which I've witnessed many times -- is that the LAV is never truly at a disadvantage, even when surrounded by enemies. If it ever gets close to being killed, which takes a long time, it can safely run away and get its HP back. The survivability while completely pressured and surrounded is the problem with the LAV.
And I've read the "rock / paper / scissors" argument before, and I found it to be fatally flawed.
You say AV are the Paper to the vehicle's Rock? Well you're forgetting about shield tanking. Shield tanked HAVs are easily Fluxed because they can't move from a stop very quickly. Try hitting an LAV with a flux and, well... not going to happen. It moves to fast, so you'd have to be incredibly lucky.
The AV infantry have no anti-shield capabilities, so they're largely ineffective against shield tanked LAVs. The rock/paper/scissor argument breaks down right there. |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
273
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 01:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Look at the name of LAVs- Light Attack Vehicle
They aren't transports- that's why we have dropships, and are getting ground transports later. From my recent experience in a new LAV tactic triggered by a blueberry driver (that actually went well), I've learned something-
LAVs are an infantry support vehicle; good at laying down suppressing fire and keeping infantry in cover with repeated high-speed drive-bys. Logistics LAVs also support infantry well because of their super-rep
However, there needs to be a way to reward WP for LAV drivers, since it's far more common for the gunners to get assists than kills. I agree with you, but I think it could be done differently. I still think that the LAVs need to have a drastic reduction of HP, but they also need to have drastically increased turret firepower.
Picture it -- LAVs are the glass-cannons of the battlefield. They've got the speed to enter the battle, drop off troops, run people over, and make quick getaways. They can also do some fierce drive-bys and flank behind enemies to tear open the backs of their opponents. Two swarm volleys and they're done, but with the right hit-and-run tactics they can be game-changers.
*quick thought: I'd also like to make them cheaper if their HP were reduced. That's only fair. |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
273
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 01:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:Going to throw it out there.
You get hit by a car. You going to take damage.
You wear armor, you take a bit less... but still likely die.
You have shields, you'll take less, but shields still absorb fatal damage, armour crushes... end result... you die.
The LAV is not the issue. It's a vehicle, it weighs about a tonne. If you tend to think a tonne of metal driven at speed wont kill you, go step into the street and test for yourself.
The issue is people who DON'T look both ways. You going to cross open ground, look around. The train before it hits you on the railroad tracks isn't heard until it's too late. The same applies to LAVs. I honestly can't believe that you got any upvotes for posting this.
I NEVER SAID THAT LAVs SHOULDN'T KILL PEOPLE THAT THEY RUN OVER.
I love the fact that LAVs kill people when they run them over. I NEVER get run over because I ALWAYS look out for LAVs. The only thing I have a problem with is the fact that they don't die when pressured by a large group of people. |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
273
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 01:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
stlcarlos989 wrote:noobsniper the 2nd wrote:lol the quote at the top was from my murder taxi post xD 20 and 0 lol but i do agree its hard for ppl to take down my logi LAV there has to be something done about it +1 to the op Add TedNugent_ on psn and ask if you can be his gunner in his LAV and you'll get 20 kills a game. Let me take a wild guess what kind of LAV he uses... hmm... could it possibly be a shield tanked Caldari Logistics LAV? Could it be that he likes that particular model because weaponry suited for taking out fast-moving shield-tanked vehicles doesn't exist in Dust 514??? Hmm I wonder. |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
274
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 02:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
stlcarlos989 wrote:Matakage wrote:stlcarlos989 wrote:noobsniper the 2nd wrote:lol the quote at the top was from my murder taxi post xD 20 and 0 lol but i do agree its hard for ppl to take down my logi LAV there has to be something done about it +1 to the op Add TedNugent_ on psn and ask if you can be his gunner in his LAV and you'll get 20 kills a game. Let me take a wild guess what kind of LAV he uses... hmm... could it possibly be a shield tanked Caldari Logistics LAV? Could it be that he likes that particular model because weaponry suited for taking out fast-moving shield-tanked vehicles doesn't exist in Dust 514??? Hmm I wonder. Actually its because he uses a prototype blaster and 2 damage mods and puts his gunner in good positions to kill enemies. People think that LAV turrets are terrible but they've never used a properly fitted one. That's what I'd like to see more of. |
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