DUST Search - Missing Penalty for Shield Extenders

Longshot Ravenwood wrote:

Chilled Pill wrote:

The increase to sig profile is useless because no one has enough scan radius to pick you up anyway. Gallente scouts have a maximum of 20meters with max skills and a proto mod.

20meters is basically 3-4 seconds of sprint for anyone except a heavy. Passive scan skills are broken, and if they're not broken, then they're just dumb. So this sig radius increase to shield extenders isn't an inconvenience at all.

I'm not going to call you a shrubbery, but I believe that you, sir, may be doing it "wrong".
We'll start with the math:
Scout suit scan radius (any) 10m +
scan bonus - Galente Scout (50%) 5m+
scan bonus - range amplification (50%) 5m+
Total scan range available before adding mods to a Gallente scout suit is 20 meters
Complex range amplifiers add 45% to the scan radius (4.5 meters if it's going off of the initial range, 9 meters if it's going off of the adjusted -- description does not mention a stacking penalty.

If we're being conservative about stacking then a scout with militia modules (25% bonus) & max skills could have a scan range of 25 meters (two low slots).

While if we take the conservativeness away it's possible that the bonuses from skills stack, rather than combine, meaning the base bonuses go scout suit 10m > Gallente scan bonus 15m > Range amplification bonus 22.5m > Complex Range Amplifier > 32.625m > etc...

But that's not the problem. Signature radius has nothing to do with scan radius & everything to do with scan precision vs scan profile. A heavy has a scan profile of 65 and a scan Precision of 60, which means it's hard for it to aquire targets and easy for others to aquire it as a target on their scaners. A medium suithas a scan profile of 50 and a scan precision of 55, which makes a medium suit harder to spot on the battlefield. Light suits are 45/45 which makes them the best scanners and hardest to scan.

The idea behind a reduced scan profile is to avoid enemy detection until you can get into an advantageous position. The idea behind increasing scan profile for shield extenders is that a big shiny dot of electomagnetic energy wouldn't be very easy to conceal & as such would more easily be detected on scannners.

If you don't stealth on maps, I can see why you wouldn't understand -- it's not about seconds, it's about tactics. About being able to see what direction your opponent is facing, walking up behind them, then cutting their advantage down or distracting them as a squad moves in. It makes a difference.

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Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 712	Posted - 2013.06.09 18:07:00 - [1] - Quote They should have an increase in profile to make players easier to scan. When you're a shiny, sparkling ball of energy capable of deflecting enemy attacks, it should show up on my radar more easily.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 294	Posted - 2013.06.09 18:13:00 - [2] - Quote Buff armor, don't nerf shields. This isn't eve.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 336	Posted - 2013.06.09 18:14:00 - [3] - Quote I've been waiting on this for awhile now. I remember hearing that it was coming soon last year. EDIT: Armor does need a buff too, though there needs to be some drawback to shield tanking. I think an increase to sig profile is a good idea.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1272	Posted - 2013.06.09 18:25:00 - [4] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Buff armor, don't nerf shields. This isn't eve. Shields have drawbacks like this in EVE.
Eris Ernaga Super Nerds 181	Posted - 2013.06.09 18:38:00 - [5] - Quote Longshot Ravenwood wrote: They should have an increase in profile to make players easier to scan. When you're a shiny, sparkling ball of energy capable of deflecting enemy attacks, it should show up on my radar more easily. There is no penalty like armor because armor is 2/1 of a shield extender thats the nice part about shields they receive no penalty. So for less shield you get no minus to speed and no stacking penalty enjoy.
Doshneil Antaro SVER True Blood 62	Posted - 2013.06.09 18:46:00 - [6] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Buff armor, don't nerf shields. This isn't eve. Ok , but the only fair way to buff armor is to remove speed penalties. Oh wait then everyone would just stack them to their hearts content, you know, like they way they do shields. Nobody is saying nerf shields, we are saying make there a reason to not go crazy with them. Scan radias is a good idea, but I still would like shield extenders to take away from stamina as they require more energy. This would actually bring a balance that is missing between the two hp options. Armor reduces speed, shield reduces how long you can run. This would also make other skills more viable, and lead to moe variety of suit builds.
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Orion Empire 367	Posted - 2013.06.09 18:51:00 - [7] - Quote I'm a shield tank and would support this change. There's still the option of rechargers for stealthy shield tanks.
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 715	Posted - 2013.06.09 18:53:00 - [8] - Quote Thanks Malkai :) Eris Ernaga wrote: Longshot Ravenwood wrote: They should have an increase in profile to make players easier to scan. When you're a shiny, sparkling ball of energy capable of deflecting enemy attacks, it should show up on my radar more easily. There is no penalty like armor because armor is 2/1 of a shield extender thats the nice part about shields they receive no penalty. So for less shield you get no minus to speed and no stacking penalty enjoy. There is no penalty because no penalty was programmed in. Shields can and should have a signature radius penalty simply for the fact that stronger shields would have a stronger em signature & as a result be easier to pick up on a scan.
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 726	Posted - 2013.06.10 09:38:00 - [9] - Quote Completely forgot to make this thread into a basic argument like the rest of them... "You nubs using shield extenders to soak up damage suk. I want you to be easier to spot on my radar so I know who to shoot with my scrambler rifle. I'm looking at you Caldari Logi. You want to tank big like a heavy? Your sig radius can be big like a heavy too." Anyway, I think shield extenders should apply a sig radius penatly.
Chilled Pill Pro Hic Immortalis 88	Posted - 2013.06.10 09:53:00 - [10] - Quote The increase to sig profile is useless because no one has enough scan radius to pick you up anyway. Gallente scouts have a maximum of 20meters with max skills and a proto mod. 20meters is basically 3-4 seconds of sprint for anyone except a heavy. Passive scan skills are broken, and if they're not broken, then they're just dumb. So this sig radius increase to shield extenders isn't an inconvenience at all.

Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1280	Posted - 2013.06.10 10:19:00 - [11] - Quote Chilled Pill wrote: The increase to sig profile is useless because no one has enough scan radius to pick you up anyway. Gallente scouts have a maximum of 20meters with max skills and a proto mod. 20meters is basically 3-4 seconds of sprint for anyone except a heavy. Passive scan skills are broken, and if they're not broken, then they're just dumb. So this sig radius increase to shield extenders isn't an inconvenience at all. Larger hit box sound better?
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 728	Posted - 2013.06.10 10:27:00 - [12] - Quote Chilled Pill wrote: The increase to sig profile is useless because no one has enough scan radius to pick you up anyway. Gallente scouts have a maximum of 20meters with max skills and a proto mod. 20meters is basically 3-4 seconds of sprint for anyone except a heavy. Passive scan skills are broken, and if they're not broken, then they're just dumb. So this sig radius increase to shield extenders isn't an inconvenience at all. I'm not going to call you a shrubbery, but I believe that you, sir, may be doing it "wrong". We'll start with the math: Scout suit scan radius (any) 10m + scan bonus - Galente Scout (50%) 5m+ scan bonus - range amplification (50%) 5m+ Total scan range available before adding mods to a Gallente scout suit is 20 meters Complex range amplifiers add 45% to the scan radius (4.5 meters if it's going off of the initial range, 9 meters if it's going off of the adjusted -- description does not mention a stacking penalty. If we're being conservative about stacking then a scout with militia modules (25% bonus) & max skills could have a scan range of 25 meters (two low slots). While if we take the conservativeness away it's possible that the bonuses from skills stack, rather than combine, meaning the base bonuses go scout suit 10m > Gallente scan bonus 15m > Range amplification bonus 22.5m > Complex Range Amplifier > 32.625m > etc... But that's not the problem. Signature radius has nothing to do with scan radius & everything to do with scan precision vs scan profile. A heavy has a scan profile of 65 and a scan Precision of 60, which means it's hard for it to aquire targets and easy for others to aquire it as a target on their scaners. A medium suithas a scan profile of 50 and a scan precision of 55, which makes a medium suit harder to spot on the battlefield. Light suits are 45/45 which makes them the best scanners and hardest to scan. The idea behind a reduced scan profile is to avoid enemy detection until you can get into an advantageous position. The idea behind increasing scan profile for shield extenders is that a big shiny dot of electomagnetic energy wouldn't be very easy to conceal & as such would more easily be detected on scannners. If you don't stealth on maps, I can see why you wouldn't understand -- it's not about seconds, it's about tactics. About being able to see what direction your opponent is facing, walking up behind them, then cutting their advantage down or distracting them as a squad moves in. It makes a difference.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 176	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:28:00 - [13] - Quote Cosgar wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Buff armor, don't nerf shields. This isn't eve. Shields have drawbacks like this in EVE. In EVE scan radius means something, in Dust 514 not as much. The only way to make scan radius worthwhile is if instead of showing you the person in your minimap you could read their digital signature on your screen, as in slightly see them through walls this would actually give a tactical and overall advantage in battle for having a high scan radius. At the moment a scan radius only means you will see them sooner on your minimap which is only helpful in an open field, inside a complex they could be on top of you, under you, next to you etc and no true way of you knowing.
Chilled Pill Pro Hic Immortalis 91	Posted - 2013.06.10 11:58:00 - [14] - Quote Longshot Ravenwood wrote: Chilled Pill wrote: The increase to sig profile is useless because no one has enough scan radius to pick you up anyway. Gallente scouts have a maximum of 20meters with max skills and a proto mod. 20meters is basically 3-4 seconds of sprint for anyone except a heavy. Passive scan skills are broken, and if they're not broken, then they're just dumb. So this sig radius increase to shield extenders isn't an inconvenience at all. I'm not going to call you a shrubbery, but I believe that you, sir, may be doing it "wrong". We'll start with the math: Scout suit scan radius (any) 10m + scan bonus - Galente Scout (50%) 5m+ scan bonus - range amplification (50%) 5m+ Total scan range available before adding mods to a Gallente scout suit is 20 meters Complex range amplifiers add 45% to the scan radius (4.5 meters if it's going off of the initial range, 9 meters if it's going off of the adjusted -- description does not mention a stacking penalty. If we're being conservative about stacking then a scout with militia modules (25% bonus) & max skills could have a scan range of 25 meters (two low slots). While if we take the conservativeness away it's possible that the bonuses from skills stack, rather than combine, meaning the base bonuses go scout suit 10m > Gallente scan bonus 15m > Range amplification bonus 22.5m > Complex Range Amplifier > 32.625m > etc... But that's not the problem. Signature radius has nothing to do with scan radius & everything to do with scan precision vs scan profile. A heavy has a scan profile of 65 and a scan Precision of 60, which means it's hard for it to aquire targets and easy for others to aquire it as a target on their scaners. A medium suithas a scan profile of 50 and a scan precision of 55, which makes a medium suit harder to spot on the battlefield. Light suits are 45/45 which makes them the best scanners and hardest to scan. The idea behind a reduced scan profile is to avoid enemy detection until you can get into an advantageous position. The idea behind increasing scan profile for shield extenders is that a big shiny dot of electomagnetic energy wouldn't be very easy to conceal & as such would more easily be detected on scannners. If you don't stealth on maps, I can see why you wouldn't understand -- it's not about seconds, it's about tactics. About being able to see what direction your opponent is facing, walking up behind them, then cutting their advantage down or distracting them as a squad moves in. It makes a difference. Aren't we Mr. Pedantic. First of all, how are you even so sure that the scan range bonuses are calculated and stacked like that? Secondly, I was already a few steps ahead of you with regard to your whole tirade about how scan profile and scan precision works. What you failed to derive from my statement that it wont matter if I'm trying to scan something that has a profile of 1,000,000db and my precision is .0000001db if whatever I'm trying to scan isn't within 20m. 20m which is a ridiculously tiny radius in a game where people sprint at 7-10m/sec. Thirdly, I play as a Gallente Scout. A pretty good one, if I'm allowed to sing my own praises. Many times have heavies seemed to pop out of no where and even around small obstacles that didn't even appear as a blip on the tacnet radar until I actually see them. And even if everyone appeared as a blip there, that would mean they're inside your 20-32.625m (that you pulled out of your ...) which will mean you're most probably going to die. Me and gameplay experience > that your maths. So again, it doesn't matter if people get double their profile per shield extender they slap on, they won't be picked up on passive scan until they are uber close to you. Which will make the proposed draw back negligible. Run along now.
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 517	Posted - 2013.06.10 12:21:00 - [15] - Quote TBH the armor should only reduce the amount of stamina not the actual speed. Do this and armor tanking will suddenly become viable......at least until they add the new armors like the self repairing ones.....
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 730	Posted - 2013.06.10 12:23:00 - [16] - Quote Chilled Pill wrote: Secondly, I was already a few steps ahead of you with regard to your whole tirade about how scan profile and scan precision works. What you failed to derive from my statement that it wont matter if I'm trying to scan something that has a profile of 1,000,000db and my precision is .0000001db if whatever I'm trying to scan isn't within 20m. 20m which is a ridiculously tiny radius in a game where people sprint at 7-10m/sec. The fact that you're measuring radius as a "sprint distance" is the problem. "The idea behind a reduced scan profile is to avoid enemy detection until you can get into an advantageous position. The idea behind increasing scan profile for shield extenders is that a big shiny dot of electomagnetic energy wouldn't be very easy to conceal & as such would more easily be detected on scannners. If you don't stealth on maps, I can see why you wouldn't understand -- it's not about seconds, it's about tactics. About being able to see what direction your opponent is facing, walking up behind them, then cutting their advantage down or distracting them as a squad moves in. It makes a difference." As a stealth scout I've located, and broken a squad that was holding an objective. I couldn't have done that if I hadn't been able to scan them down, nor could I have done it if they had been able to scan me down while I was maneuvering to get into position. Chilled Pill wrote: Thirdly, I play as a Gallente Scout. A pretty good one, if I'm allowed to sing my own praises. Many times have heavies seemed to pop out of no where and even around small obstacles that didn't even appear as a blip on the tacnet radar until I actually see them. And even if everyone appeared as a blip there, that would mean they're inside your 20-32.625m (that you pulled out of your ...) which will mean you're most probably going to die. Me and gameplay experience > that your maths. Just trying to use math to help explain my gameplay experience and why it might be different from yours. It sounds to me like you're playing a speed-tank scout rather than a stealth-tank scout. I use stealth to sneak up on targets and headshot them repeatedly to death (or as near as I can manage). How do you use your stealth advantage? PS. Chilled Pill wrote: Aren't we Mr. Pedantic. First of all, how are you even so sure that the scan range bonuses are calculated and stacked like that? ... Me and gameplay experience > that your maths. So again, it doesn't matter if people get double their profile per shield extender they slap on, they won't be picked up on passive scan until they are uber close to you. Which will make the proposed draw back negligible. Run along now. The math is based on how skills, bonuses, and modules work in EVE, which has seemed to be rather similar to the way we should expect them to work in Dust. The ranges 25m to 32.625m+ that I pulled out were based on the principles of base bonuses (100+50%+50% is 200) versus stacked bonuses (100+50%+50% isn't 200, it's 225). And if I sound Pedantic it's because I was always taught in school that misinformation should be Educated. Pardon me for trying to explain how I came to my decision regarding how wrong you are about the terrible input you've provided. In the future I'll just add a dismissive phrase to the end of my post, because you know -- that's constructive.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3223	Posted - 2013.06.10 13:25:00 - [17] - Quote The problem with this theory is SCOUTS. Fast by design. Focused on shield regen by design. Focused on stealth by design. Fast = impractical to armour tank. Shield-focused = can't be stealth-focused if they add profile penalty on shield extenders. Stealth focused = can't be shield-focused if they add profile penalty on shield extenders. It's easy enough to explain/handwave the problem away with "atmospheric interference negates the shield profile penalty that's experienced when in a vacuum" or something similar, and simply making shields a low-HP low-penalty option is perfectly reasonable.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 296	Posted - 2013.06.10 13:55:00 - [18] - Quote That's what I'm saying guys, this isn't eve, we don't need every single bonus and penalty they have. We need to fix armor tanking, by reducing and removing speed penalty vs needing shield tanking by implementing a questionably worthwhile penalty to shield extenders. The only reason we all stack HP mods is because there are no other mods that are worthwhile to replace it. Also, ferroscale plates are planned for uprising 1.2, how about we comment on balance once those are in game.
Laurent Cazaderon What The French CRONOS. 1544	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:18:00 - [19] - Quote Longshot Ravenwood wrote: They should have an increase in profile to make players easier to scan. When you're a shiny, sparkling ball of energy capable of deflecting enemy attacks, it should show up on my radar more easily. Like i said in another thread, a good solution would be to add an incentive to focus your suit based on the type of defense its made for. That would imply adding a penalty to shield so both defense have a penalty. Then, add a new set of racial bonuses to the basic frames that will affect the various penalty. Gallente : 10% reduction to armor plates penalty per level Amarr : 5% reduction to armor plates penalty per level and 5% reduction to shield extender penalty per level Minmatar : 5% reduction to shield penalty per level + 3% bonus to shield recharge per level Caldari : 10% reduction to shield penalty per level Those are wild examples but the point is that using a suit supposed to shield tank or armor tank would give you an advantage in using that specific type of defense. And it would also discourage people to just dual tank and stack HP buff modules all over the places. Also, i red someone saying that armor advantage is that it's 2 against 1 in HP buff compared to shield extenders. But what about native regen ? Anyway, if someone want to go into the shield vs armor debate. there's a nice thread about that in that same forum.
FatalFlaw V1 ISK Faucet Industries 88	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:41:00 - [20] - Quote I've seen too many game mechanics ruined based on utterly irrelevant arguments based on lore, realism, and eve. Even if you want to make things more like Eve, that would bring far more significant buffs for shield tanks than nerfs. In Eve shield regenerates constantly, even while being shot. Also adding shield extenders increases the rate of regeneration. Basically if the ship regens all of its shield in 2 minutes, adding extenders will still allow it to regen to full in 2 minutes but the shield per second is increased proportionally. Oh and lets not forget, in Eve damage mods are low slot items not high. They share armor tank slots, not shield. Would we be switching to that as well? The closed beta build from over a year ago had fast regen shields. They nerfed it into the ground along with scout movement speed because bad players couldn't keep their crosshairs on them and had to watch their targets shield go back to full constantly. Moot point is moot, armor tank buffs are on the way already.



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