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West Killington
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
0
   |
Posted - 2013.06.08 18:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
The Mass Driver - a somewhat boring personal history of use with some feedback/requests at the end.
~Why do I use this weapon? Why after my respec did I decide to choose it again? I am not sure but I definitely feel like a fool for doing so.
Preface-
I know there have been several threads that have been dedicated to this topic and some have spouted statistics and other data to back up their disdain for the current status of this weapon; that is not my intention with this thread.
Like most players I started this game as a vanilla AR user; a safe decision when compared to the other weapon archetypes available. With my gek(or exile) in hand I roamed the battlefield liberally throwing rounds at targets near and far with little care for my actual ammunition usage or any thought of giving away my position. While I learned the mechanics of the game this was a great role for me to take on and with the versatility of the weapon as my backbone I generally excelled at what I did.
One day while in a skirmish, I was transitioning from objective to objective within the compound... at every entry way into the hack point I was greeted by an explosion from above that shook my screen and left me dead or in smoke filled haze that obscured my aim leaving me to get cut to pieces by the objective's garrison. Upon respawn, I switched my focus form capping objectives to making this guy dead and upset about his equipment loss; ultimately I was successful but the impression was made. This guy had effectively stopped my advance and altered my priorities. I was intrigued and my initial assessment of the weapon being a "noob tube" was altered and gave way to thoughts of the MD's practical uses on the battlefield.
With word of account resets inbound I decided to spec into the MD and give it a go. Initially, I was surprised at the difficulty of use but the challenge of putting rounds on target made want to get better at it. This was a new feeling for my time with dust and I enjoyed it. I committed myself to mastering the weapon and before long I was putting up the same stats as when I used the AR.
It was a great time, I was helping my team and doing well for myself. The future was bright.
When my initial respec came through I happily unlocked my MD skill tree as well as my other supporting skills despite the reports of a reduction in its power/blast radius. When I took it out onto the field for the first time the changes were quickly evident. I was still moderately effective but purely in a situational capacity. I understood that there were some new factors that were against me, most importantly the increased prevalence of proto'd shield tankers. I didn't whine about this on the forums; I focused on maximizing my fitting potential and testing the variants available. The answer was out there and the desire to solve the problem was alive and well.
Well, after weeks of consistent research and testing I can say that the answer was out there. The MD and its variants are no longer viable as a primary weapon of choice when compared with the other options on the battlefield. Area denial and movement disruption is shook off with ease by advancing troops. Every attempt at taking down a foe must be led with a flux grenade a fact that is acceptable until you take into account that restocking grenades from hives absolutely wipes them out; similarly, restocking MD rounds is just as taxing on the hives output. This flat out sucks and is a major slight against the weapons versatility.
At this point ill cease the diatribe and just list some key points.
- The changes did do a great job of adding some definition to the variants which I believe was the reasoning behind the alterations.
- I think the damage needs to be increased for the both the standard and assault versions; perhaps just a small increase to shield damage. Obviously in proportion to each other.
- I am happy with the removal of the sharpshooter trait, this just makes sense.
- Blast radius should be increased slightly on all models.
- Can we potentially have some increased output from nano hives OR lower the CPU/PG drain on the weapon/hives?
- Although I didn't have issues with the previous state of the MD I would be fine with splitting the difference on the changes made.
- There is little feedback coming in on this weapon because most MD users have abandoned the system for greener pastures.
Thanks to anybody who read this and sorry if I lost some steam towards the end. This was not meant to be a cry session just my attempt at sticking up for my MD.
~West |
EXASTRA INVICTAS
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
96
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Posted - 2013.06.08 19:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Your post was much more enjoyable to read than most regarding the Mass Driver. It usually amounts to whining, crying, and derogatory comments demeaning other weapons and demanding theirs be returned to OP status.
I do not see many Mass Drivers on the battlefield. That, given the DUST community, is a pretty good indication that it's not as good or useful as it should be. The Plasma Cannon is one other weapon that suffers like this right now.
CCP seems to believe that the major problems are due to latency issues and hit detection problems. They have confirmed that they are working on fixing the coding for the weapon and are nearly complete, performing lots of internal testing that is "looking good" so far.
My suggestion is to wait for them to finally deploy their Mass Driver fix before we start trying to change base stats of the weapon for balancing (again). Although I don't use it, I have given it a try. It is very awkward and clunky, though I've been on the wrong end of one several times and when it works, it's very good at its job. I look forward to seeing more of them on the field. |
West Killington
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 19:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thanks for the reply exastra. I actually was not aware that a fix was inbound and you are right the same lack of robustness is exhibited in the plasma cannon. These weapons are in the game, they should be viable balanced options for players to spec into; especially when you consider the amount of sp it takes to merely see what the ultimate damage potential a weapon system has. |
EXASTRA INVICTAS
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 19:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
West Killington wrote:Thanks for the reply exastra. I actually was not aware that a fix was inbound and you are right the same lack of robustness is exhibited in the plasma cannon. These weapons are in the game, they should be viable balanced options for players to spec into; especially when you consider the amount of sp it takes to merely see what the ultimate damage potential a weapon system has.
The plasma cannon is in a really sore spot. It's slow, you get one shot per clip, it has a strange arc, its dummy fired, and it does less damage than its rival the Swarm Launcher. Swarms do higher damage, track, and go faster. As of right now it's an obvious choice, but the Plasma Cannon is far from irredeemable. Hopefully CCP will recognize this and listen to our ideas.
As for the Mass Driver, yes indeed there is a fix inbound. However it deals with some intricate coding and as such will take a larger update (I believe both client side and server side updates are required). When CCP feels their fixes are indeed ready the Mass Driver will, hopefully, be born anew.
At least there is no other weapon that infringes on the Mass Driver's niche. It's the quintessential area denial weapon in this game. For now, anyway. |
West Killington
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 20:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
One thing I may have not added to my post was how much of a challenge I imagine it must be to balance this many weapons and variants. My appreciation does go out to the dev staff in regards to these and the requests of others. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
1238
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 20:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Keeping it civil, like every other game mechanic that was nerfed in the beginning of uprising, the nerf bat was swung too hard. In fact there was no real need for one to be swung in the first place. Even though a skilled user could dominate with the Freedom or Boundless Assault, the weapon was severely gimped when going against suits running equipment with the same average meta level equipment. I spent many a corp battle playing full support back then because of the glaring advantages shields had over armor at the time.
The combination of nerfs to damage, splash radius, and nanohives has put the MD on the levels of novelty. The desynch issues make it flat out unreliable. There were also changes to the grenade trajectory, which could have warranted a slight nerf, but honestly, the weapon wasn't broken to begin with outside of the flawed splash coding.
Adding insult to injury, the grounds of why the MD was nerfed is an insult to anyone who gave valued feedback during beta testing. It also raises more questions as to if certain game mechanics were actually tested before Uprising's release, not just the MD. And if that wasn't enough, said game mechanics weren't listed in the patch notes and many of us MD enthusiasts feel robbed because of this. |
West Killington
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 20:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Adding insult to injury, the grounds of why the MD was nerfed is an insult to anyone who gave valued feedback during beta testing.
I do agree with this. Would have been nice to have some greater transparency in regard to massive changes that effect the player base. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
4268
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 20:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
You specialized into the mass driver? You fool, what have you done?!
I felt that the mass driver was perfectly balanced in Chromosome, after getting use to the initial learning curve it became pretty much as easy and effective as the assault rifle. The devs nerfed it because they claimed that internally that everyone was using it and it was too good, but compared to the AR it was just right. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
1239
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 20:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
That's the source of a lot of frustration. Nobody really complained about the MD outside of people nice enough to stand bunched up together and let me lob grenades at them. If it was this super OP weapon that Remnant feared it was, I wouldn't have a KDR below 2, and I used it for the majority of Chromosome. |
West Killington
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:You specialized into the mass driver? You fool, what have you done?!
Indeed, I am a fool. 2 times I've speced into MD.
Honestly, I've stuck with it for the same reason many still play this game; because of it's potential. Also, if I can manage some production with it in a "nerfed" state I'll have a slight advantage should it ever be fixed/reinstated. |
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Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
1240
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sadly, the MD was at the peak of its potential in Chrome. Now it's just a handicap and a waste of SP. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
4268
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
West Killington wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:You specialized into the mass driver? You fool, what have you done?! Indeed, I am a fool. 2 times I've speced into MD. Honestly, I've stuck with it for the same reason many still play this game; because of it's potential. Also, if I can manage some production with it in a "nerfed" state I'll have a slight advantage should it ever be fixed/reinstated.
Should have used an alt for that, that's what I do. Same for laser and HMG. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
855
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
This was an excellent post, +1, would read again.
I haven't used the mass driver since the first days of Uprising.
I used it a lot throughout Chromosome and I thought it was quite well balanced. There were some weird things, like the explosions being odd, but it was a solid weapon. Now, it's not. |
West Killington
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
I appreciate the feedback and info so far. Honestly, I'm psyched to have caught wind of the fact that they have an initial fix inbound. Obviously, we'll judge it when we see it but it is cool that some changes are on the way. |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
898
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
I miss getting killed by the MD. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
1250
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
I miss the "OMG! MD is a n00b tube!" topics. If people aren't complaining about a niche game mechanic enough, it's obviously broken. |
West Killington
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:I miss the "OMG! MD is a n00b tube!" topics. If people aren't complaining about a niche game mechanic enough, it's obviously broken.
LoL, well put. |
rebecca watson
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
64
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 05:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote:
At least there is no other weapon that infringes on the Mass Driver's niche. It's the quintessential area denial weapon in this game. For now, anyway.
Are u kidding?
F
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A
Y
L
O
C
K
close quarters, high ground, minmatar assualt dual flaylock. disgusting.  |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1147
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 06:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
+1 West, good feedback well written.
I started using the MD builds back to prove that it was OP (at the time I was convinced this was the case). Upon extensive play testing of the weapon I discovered two things, first that it wasn't remotely OP and I needed to own up to my earlier mistaken pots on the forums. Second that once I started learning how to actually use it the tactical value of it's area denial abilities suited my role as a support Logi very well, and so I decided to stick with it.
The MD contrast between Chrome and Uprising is, to be blunt, shocking. A damage modded Freedom or Boundless now preforms at around the level of an unmodified EXO under Uprising. CCP has stated there are bugs and fixes are on the way, this is good news but only accounts for part of the picture. Assuming all bugs being removed restores the MD to Chrome levels of performance (which honestly were not overpowered, I tested this against the rest of the light weapons out there) there would still remain the effective nerf of nano hives bottlenecking the MDs ammo supply. Bug fixes also do not address the comparative balance of the MD to the Grenades available in game, especially the contact grenades.
I don't know what numbers or testing CCP used internally for their balance assessment but from my first hand experiences through Chromosome (and before) I've never seen the MD dominate a match. It's likely that in all the matches played it happened with someone at some point but I've played thousands of hours of Dust and never seen it myself.
I've seen single Chrome ELM dominate a game, I've seen certain players in Chrome make the HMG dominate (Exmaple, Chicago Cubs and the like), I've seen HAVs dominate the game, mostly redline rail snipers but the occasional properly built blaster, I've seen a wide assortment of ARs dominate various matches but I have not encountered a match yet where a MD user was such a slaying force on the field that it clearly swung the battle for their team (or topped the leaderboard for that matter).
In short while I do understand CCP not wanting to change numbers until the bug fixes are in I don't see how the current numbers in Uprising add up to proper balance when compared with the other elements of the game, nor have I heard from CCP (despite asking) what their intended function/role for the MD is which would justify these current numbers (and other changes like alteration to the smoke) as proper balance. The lack of communication, both before the change via patch notes, and after the change regarding anything aside from the bugs, is what I find most problematic. If CCP has information or methods which show the MD in Chrome needed a nerf that's fine, share them. If CCP lacks such numbers then respond to the many testers who've posted extensively on the subject in reasonable and detailed ways, open a dialogue and address the concerns and data presented there in. In either case more transparency and reactivity in communication is honestly required, and so near launch is a bad time to drop the ball on this (not that there's ever a good time).
0.02 ISK
Cross
ps ~ the diversity between the three types of MD really needs work, the themes are good but the stats don't do enough to support them and the nerfs quite frankly seem to have made this situation worse. |
rebecca watson
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
64
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 18:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
My 2 cents:
I ran MD full-time in chromosome, logi-suit, 1x dmg mod, MD5, proficiency 3.
I made it work, but it was frustrating. Half my suits had my Exile rifle on it, and i'd get more kills with it.
Many logi's will realize, that being an effective killer can be just as important or more, than repping or rezzing your teammates.
The MD is hard to manage ammo-wise, and harder to kill people with unless you carefully engineer your situational placement (i.e. enemy uphill from you, on a pipe, behind a railing? Forget about it)
It was so situational then, that even before I heard about the changes in Uprising, when I found out about the respec, I decided to go AR.
The changes cemented my decision, and i've never thought twice about it.
I'm slightly curious about the flaylock, will look into it after some other SP uses. |
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