DUST Search - Why are assault rifles and scrambler rifles pretty mch better than everything else?

Another Heavy SOB wrote:

Ignatius Crumwald wrote:

Another Heavy SOB wrote:

Ignatius Crumwald wrote:

I think the fact that the AR is Hybrid and the Scrambler is energy damage have a lot to do with their success considering 99% of the player base is shield tanked.

Also consider the fact that the +3% damage per proficiency level goes a hell of a lot further with the high damage of an AR than it does with low damage of SMGs, HMGs, etc...

Buy a calculator, CCP...

Actually when you consider the HMG's ROF you gain more DPS per proficiency level than an AR.

To the OP, it's already been stated but I feel the need to reiterate the point. Just because you beat someone with x weapon while they had x doesn't make your weapon OP. Come try to drop me within my HMG's optimal and see how that goes for you.

Sorry, the raw numbers on DPS put the HMG below the assault rifle at every level and once you take the damage efficiency and dispersion into consideration it's even lower and thus more pathetic.

For the sake of not creating a wall of numbers I'll just calculate DPS from the raw numbers without considering efficiency to armor vs shields.

Boundless DPS without proficiency: 19.8+ù2000 = 39600++60 = 660

Boundless DPS with level I proficiency: 19.8+ù1.03 = 20.394+ù2000 = 40788++60 = 679.8

So one level of proficiency nets a 19.8 gain to DPS with a Boundless HMG.

Duvolle DPS without proficiency: 37.4+ù750 = 28050++60 = 467.5

Duvolle DPS with level I proficiency: 37.4+ù1.03 = 38.522+ù750 = 28891.5++60 = 481.525

One level of proficiency nets a 14.025 gain to DPS with a Duvolle AR.

Based on those calculations I'd have to disagree.

No this does not account for bullets not hitting due to spread...as soon as someone come's up with the correct formula to calculate DPS loss from dispersion at various ranges I'm sure we would see there is a range at which the AR begins to out damage the HMG.

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D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed. 133	Posted - 2013.06.08 05:48:00 - [1] - Quote idk about you (the reader) but i use a very basic assault rifle. actually its a 'dren' assault rifle. but in every build from chromosome till now, assault rifles just win every single encounter. i've used my assault rifle vs just about every other weapon in their optimal range save snipers (and even that is a close one when i begin covering the distance). in CQC i've beaten shotguns, HMGs (of course), mass drivers, etc, at mid range ive beaten HMGs, lasers, of course my only challenge is other ARs and scrambler rifles. i speced all my skills in to heavy suits and HMGs. now im wishing i could have respeced to get all my SP into ARs, even with the nerf TACs are still great, and the basic AR out guns proto HMGs in their optimal range. now when i add my complex damage mods and get headshots, im freakin unstopable in my blueprint suit,but most of the time i just have to spray and i win. CCP can i still respec into being an Assault?
GLiMPSE X IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 114	Posted - 2013.06.08 05:58:00 - [2] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: idk about you (the reader) but i use a very basic assault rifle. actually its a 'dren' assault rifle. but in every build from chromosome till now, assault rifles just win every single encounter. i've used my assault rifle vs just about every other weapon in their optimal range save snipers (and even that is a close one when i begin covering the distance). in CQC i've beaten shotguns, HMGs (of course), mass drivers, etc, at mid range ive beaten HMGs, lasers, of course my only challenge is other ARs and scrambler rifles. i speced all my skills in to heavy suits and HMGs. now im wishing i could have respeced to get all my SP into ARs, even with the nerf TACs are still great, and the basic AR out guns proto HMGs in their optimal range. now when i add my complex damage mods and get headshots, im freakin unstopable in my blueprint suit,but most of the time i just have to spray and i win. CCP can i still respec into being an Assault? What's the point of this thread? Providing anecdotal evidence that you've killed people using different weapons has very little to do with balance. AR's are fine, with the recent nerf to the TAC everything is settling in a little better and we're seeing more variety.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic ROFL BROS 1806	Posted - 2013.06.08 06:00:00 - [3] - Quote What do you mean "and scrambler rifles"? o.O
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed. 133	Posted - 2013.06.08 06:03:00 - [4] - Quote the question of the thread answers your question. to spell it out for you. why is it that you can do the job of every other weapon better with an AR or SR? i mean really just the other nice me and my squad killed a proto tank with just militia assault rifles. and mAR vs HMG is a joke. when, ever, did AR ever out gun HMG. hell, the spray and pray on the full autos make them better than basic shotguns. so the question remains. why does the AR fill the role of every gun?
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed. 133	Posted - 2013.06.08 06:05:00 - [5] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: What do you mean "and scrambler rifles"? o.O scrambler rilfes and that bad, but the assault ones get pretty crazy. scrabler rifles are not too far behind ARs. but any nerfs to them IF any nerfs are done to them should be handed delicately, because SR are only slightly over powered.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 4257	Posted - 2013.06.08 06:07:00 - [6] - Quote HMGs suck, they're only useful at pathetically short ranges, making them only good for camping (which is boring) Lasers suck sooooo bad, I haven't been killed by 1 laser since Uprising; someone came really close today, but I killed them. Ironsight on a long range weapon? lol Shotgun I think is fine, at least for the most part. Mass driver is kind of bugged right now, can't be fixed without a client update. I get the sense that its a mediocre weapon, not bad, but not great like the ARs. I can't speak about the sniper rifles,don't really use them.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 156	Posted - 2013.06.08 06:07:00 - [7] - Quote Let's see... Shotguns have barely better than melee range and aiming with them sucks in my (limited) experience. Heavies have large, juicy heads. Boundless are nasty but they do lower damage to shield suits, who are also more mobile and able to take advantage of a heavy's slow turn speed more easily. MD users who don't land a flux grenade are practically a free kill to a heavily shielded suit. MD's also have a variety of issues since Uprising. HMG's at mid range are mostly lol Lasers are always lol SCRs and ARs are effective from CQC all they way out to longer medium ranges. In conclusion, whomever CCP's paying to balance stuff in this game aren't very good at it and they tend to just throw **** at the wall and see what sticks. Then they over nerf or over buff because they make large modifications to multiple variables all at once. Because the devs are newbs at designing FPSs. That's not intended to be an insult, it's simply the truth. But really, having beaten them doesn't really count for much either. It could just be that the particular users you beat sucked.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1226	Posted - 2013.06.08 06:13:00 - [8] - Quote The AR and SCR aren't the best weapons and they aren't even OP. Everything else took a huge nerf to the point that they're better by comparison. If you're putting SP into any weapon that isn't a rifle, (except the laser) you're getting ripped off or you like playing Dust 514 on hard mode.
RuckingFetard Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 178	Posted - 2013.06.08 06:13:00 - [9] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: What do you mean "and scrambler rifles"? o.O scrambler rilfes and that bad, but the assault ones get pretty crazy. scrabler rifles are not too far behind ARs. but any nerfs to them IF any nerfs are done to them should be handed delicately, because SR are only slightly over powered. They aren't PS ASR is ****. Takes half-a-mag with crazy high recoil even when burst firing to kill trashmatars
Azrael Aranis The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 7	Posted - 2013.06.08 07:17:00 - [10] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: What do you mean "and scrambler rifles"? o.O scrambler rilfes and that bad, but the assault ones get pretty crazy. scrabler rifles are not too far behind ARs. but any nerfs to them IF any nerfs are done to them should be handed delicately, because SR are only slightly over powered. I agree I would say the "regular" scrambler rifle is one of the most balanced weapons in the game at the moment; sure it does a ton of damage but trying to spray and pray (or having a modded controller, macro mouse, etc. To do it for you) means the gun overheats and you are left vulnerable. The only thing I would personally change about it is to increase the effectiveness vs shield, and reduce effectiveness vs armor by a similar percentage. So that it would become more effective against shield tankers, and make armor tanking a more viable option. Now to me it does make sense that a majority of the players use AR's or AR equivelants like the scrambler rifle. After all it is currently the most widely used weapon with armed forces around the world; because it comparitively easy to maintain and operate, and is flexible enough to engage over multiple ranges. Weapons like shotguns and grenade launchers are far more specialized, and part of the problem is that the situations they are designed for rarely occur in Dust at the moment. Shotguns are ofcourse far more effective in close quarters, but thats only small parts of certain outposts at the moment. Maps that center around "urban" combat, trench warfare, or boarding actions would be the logical choice for a shotgun and would limit the effectiveness of the AR; but they don't exist yet. The mass driver would be the weapon to use to clear enemies out of cover; small rooms with windows overlooking the street, bunkers, etc. The explosion would be contained within the confined space and inflict massive damage to its occupants, because most of the shockwave has no where to go and "folds" back in. And lets face it the MD is more effective in these situations; if it is shot at an enemy that can not jump to avoid the blast radius, and can not outrun the blast radius due to walls and obstacles you are likely to get the kill. But again these areas are limited; there's those little bunkers nobody really uses, patches of crates and containers that impede movement, hacking terminals within a null cannon, and some other small areas. Players that use the MD will agree that these are sweet spots for getting "easy" kills, and that killing people running around in an open field is far more difficult. Currently terrain that favours shotguns covers maybe 5% of most maps, terrain that favours the MD is even less common. And there's the problem that the mechanics of both weapons are a bit dodgy. So AR's en AR equivelants reign supreme not only due to weapon mechanics, but also because the maps we fight on favour AR's over more specialized weapons.

Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 531	Posted - 2013.06.08 07:24:00 - [11] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: idk about you (the reader) but i use a very basic assault rifle. actually its a 'dren' assault rifle. but in every build from chromosome till now, assault rifles just win every single encounter. i've used my assault rifle vs just about every other weapon in their optimal range save snipers (and even that is a close one when i begin covering the distance). in CQC i've beaten shotguns, HMGs (of course), mass drivers, etc, at mid range ive beaten HMGs, lasers, of course my only challenge is other ARs and scrambler rifles. i speced all my skills in to heavy suits and HMGs. now im wishing i could have respeced to get all my SP into ARs, even with the nerf TACs are still great, and the basic AR out guns proto HMGs in their optimal range. now when i add my complex damage mods and get headshots, im freakin unstopable in my blueprint suit,but most of the time i just have to spray and i win. CCP can i still respec into being an Assault? Just because you've beaten people with a weapon doesn't mean it's superior to theirs. On several occasions I've been caught short mid-reload by a hmg, and had to begin the harrowing affair of meleeing them to death. Does this mean melee surpasses hmgs at cqc? My screams of "who's da man" after those rare encounters would suggest otherwise.
Lea Silencio D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION 54	Posted - 2013.06.08 07:25:00 - [12] - Quote I am still lol'ing at the part where you said you all killed a proto tank with only militia AR's.
Ignatius Crumwald IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 550	Posted - 2013.06.08 07:32:00 - [13] - Quote I think the fact that the AR is Hybrid and the Scrambler is energy damage have a lot to do with their success considering 99% of the player base is shield tanked. Also consider the fact that the +3% damage per proficiency level goes a hell of a lot further with the high damage of an AR than it does with low damage of SMGs, HMGs, etc... Buy a calculator, CCP...
Another Heavy SOB TRUE TEA BAGGERS EoN. 126	Posted - 2013.06.08 08:53:00 - [14] - Quote Ignatius Crumwald wrote: I think the fact that the AR is Hybrid and the Scrambler is energy damage have a lot to do with their success considering 99% of the player base is shield tanked. Also consider the fact that the +3% damage per proficiency level goes a hell of a lot further with the high damage of an AR than it does with low damage of SMGs, HMGs, etc... Buy a calculator, CCP... Actually when you consider the HMG's ROF you gain more DPS per proficiency level than an AR. To the OP, it's already been stated but I feel the need to reiterate the point. Just because you beat someone with x weapon while they had x doesn't make your weapon OP. Come try to drop me within my HMG's optimal and see how that goes for you.
Panther Alpha Lone Wolf Going Solo 456	Posted - 2013.06.08 09:06:00 - [15] - Quote This is exactly what the problem with this game is.... People like the OP. AR's are a popular gun, and is only logical that you will get kill by them more often then any other gun..I don't like HMG's and you never going to make me use one... got it !?!?!
Ignatius Crumwald IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 551	Posted - 2013.06.08 09:36:00 - [16] - Quote Another Heavy SOB wrote: Ignatius Crumwald wrote: I think the fact that the AR is Hybrid and the Scrambler is energy damage have a lot to do with their success considering 99% of the player base is shield tanked. Also consider the fact that the +3% damage per proficiency level goes a hell of a lot further with the high damage of an AR than it does with low damage of SMGs, HMGs, etc... Buy a calculator, CCP... Actually when you consider the HMG's ROF you gain more DPS per proficiency level than an AR. To the OP, it's already been stated but I feel the need to reiterate the point. Just because you beat someone with x weapon while they had x doesn't make your weapon OP. Come try to drop me within my HMG's optimal and see how that goes for you. Sorry, the raw numbers on DPS put the HMG below the assault rifle at every level and once you take the damage efficiency and dispersion into consideration it's even lower and thus more pathetic.
Another Heavy SOB TRUE TEA BAGGERS EoN. 126	Posted - 2013.06.08 10:36:00 - [17] - Quote Ignatius Crumwald wrote: Another Heavy SOB wrote: Ignatius Crumwald wrote: I think the fact that the AR is Hybrid and the Scrambler is energy damage have a lot to do with their success considering 99% of the player base is shield tanked. Also consider the fact that the +3% damage per proficiency level goes a hell of a lot further with the high damage of an AR than it does with low damage of SMGs, HMGs, etc... Buy a calculator, CCP... Actually when you consider the HMG's ROF you gain more DPS per proficiency level than an AR. To the OP, it's already been stated but I feel the need to reiterate the point. Just because you beat someone with x weapon while they had x doesn't make your weapon OP. Come try to drop me within my HMG's optimal and see how that goes for you. Sorry, the raw numbers on DPS put the HMG below the assault rifle at every level and once you take the damage efficiency and dispersion into consideration it's even lower and thus more pathetic. For the sake of not creating a wall of numbers I'll just calculate DPS from the raw numbers without considering efficiency to armor vs shields. Boundless DPS without proficiency: 19.8+ù2000 = 39600++60 = 660 Boundless DPS with level I proficiency: 19.8+ù1.03 = 20.394+ù2000 = 40788++60 = 679.8 So one level of proficiency nets a 19.8 gain to DPS with a Boundless HMG. Duvolle DPS without proficiency: 37.4+ù750 = 28050++60 = 467.5 Duvolle DPS with level I proficiency: 37.4+ù1.03 = 38.522+ù750 = 28891.5++60 = 481.525 One level of proficiency nets a 14.025 gain to DPS with a Duvolle AR. Based on those calculations I'd have to disagree. No this does not account for bullets not hitting due to spread...as soon as someone come's up with the correct formula to calculate DPS loss from dispersion at various ranges I'm sure we would see there is a range at which the AR begins to out damage the HMG.
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed. 142	Posted - 2013.06.09 11:32:00 - [18] - Quote Lea Silencio wrote: I am still lol'ing at the part where you said you all killed a proto tank with only militia AR's. dude it actually happened, talk to shad newton, jill krill, a sqaud of six off use, we jumped on the tank and just unloaded everything and blew it up... i couldnt beleive it myself... and then it happened again to a militia tank
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed. 142	Posted - 2013.06.09 11:43:00 - [19] - Quote Azrael Aranis wrote: D legendary hero wrote: [quote=Sloth9230]What do you mean "and scrambler rifles"? o.O presents logical arguement . i understand what you mean. but my problem is that even in areas where other weapons are supposed to excel, ARs win over. yeah they use ARs around the world. but they as use shotguns on spec ops, and there is no excuse for the lmg (which in dust is the hmg), every squad in the Armed force of just about every country in the world has an at least one light machine gunner. the Ars seem to do everyones job better. in close quarters i can spray a shotgunner while he misses and just win... i can out gun a heavy at any range. and not only have i done it, but i have seen it done, ive had that done me consistently as a heavy machine gunner.
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed. 143	Posted - 2013.06.09 11:58:00 - [20] - Quote Another Heavy SOB wrote: Ignatius Crumwald wrote: Another Heavy SOB wrote: Ignatius Crumwald wrote: I think the fact that the AR is Hybrid and the Scrambler is energy damage have a lot to do with their success considering 99% of the player base is shield tanked. Also consider the fact that the +3% damage per proficiency level goes a hell of a lot further with the high damage of an AR than it does with low damage of SMGs, HMGs, etc... Buy a calculator, CCP... Actually when you consider the HMG's ROF you gain more DPS per proficiency level than an AR. To the OP, it's already been stated but I feel the need to reiterate the point. Just because you beat someone with x weapon while they had x doesn't make your weapon OP. Come try to drop me within my HMG's optimal and see how that goes for you. Sorry, the raw numbers on DPS put the HMG below the assault rifle at every level and once you take the damage efficiency and dispersion into consideration it's even lower and thus more pathetic. For the sake of not creating a wall of numbers I'll just calculate DPS from the raw numbers without considering efficiency to armor vs shields. Boundless DPS without proficiency: 19.8+ù2000 = 39600++60 = 660 Boundless DPS with level I proficiency: 19.8+ù1.03 = 20.394+ù2000 = 40788++60 = 679.8 So one level of proficiency nets a 19.8 gain to DPS with a Boundless HMG. Duvolle DPS without proficiency: 37.4+ù750 = 28050++60 = 467.5 Duvolle DPS with level I proficiency: 37.4+ù1.03 = 38.522+ù750 = 28891.5++60 = 481.525 One level of proficiency nets a 14.025 gain to DPS with a Duvolle AR. Based on those calculations I'd have to disagree. No this does not account for bullets not hitting due to spread...as soon as someone come's up with the correct formula to calculate DPS loss from dispersion at various ranges I'm sure we would see there is a range at which the AR begins to out damage the HMG. (Tdps - (Tdps dispersion %)) - RD(n) = edps where, Tdps =theoretical damage per second RD = range deduction, or damage reduced per meter out of optimal range n = number of meters edps = effective damage per second. i.e. boundless hmg (660- (660dps 35%d))- RD(0) = edps edps = 429 I dnt know the damage reduction constant but it is a constant that is increased by the meters in range past optimal. the sipersion on the HMG is high, because in chromosome it was meant to have the same range as the AR, but the AR was more accurate while the HMG put out more dps. but now with the Ar boost and the horrbile dps of the hmg PLUS the turn speed, etc. the hmg is terrible. Duvole assault rifle (433- (433 *5%d) - RD(0) = edps edps = 411.35 these are rough estimates but the hmg has a very high dispersion and AR very little so they balance eachother, except one has 3x the range of the other. this balance can esily be tiped in the favor of the AR by bunny hping and/or headshots. so it does hmg like damage at almost no penalty to the owner.



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