DUST Search - Question regarding controls from people with Dev experience

Cashern X wrote:

Panther Alpha wrote:

AndyPandy Puschel wrote:

Panther Alpha wrote:

Remember that the DS3 is actually design to work with games.. Which means that should have a comfortable setting margin. The mouse is design to be Accurate and Precise.

The controllers as we know them today, undergone a long process of iterations to get to its current forms. They are mainly designed to be "held by two hands" comfortably in front of a TV set, while providing inputs to games.

The "sticks"y are a logical and "cheap" consequence of providing additional and more precise inputs to a existing pad solution, compared to the org. N64 controller.

So while the controllers are "designed" for games, they are mainly designed to be used in front of TV. So there is no inherent "quality" over any other input device, given the limitations. In fact the limitations of a input device often define, how well its inputs work for certain kinds of games.

Quote:

The only reason why i can see CCP having problems with it, is because they are trying to be "Creative".

Not really or otherwise all FPS would have the same "perfect" controls, which is by my own past experiences not true at all. Like i noted, nailing the controls and feedbacks seems kinda tricky and hard to get right, for unexperienced developers. I also don't see any "creative" aspects in there controls? What are u talking about precisely?

Wrong... and wrong... but it will take me to long to explain why, and i'm to lazy.

lol idiot

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xVxxMAVERICKxxVx Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:13:00 - [1] - Quote Honest question, no troll. Say what you want about COD, but games like Black Ops 2 have really tight controls and aiming and tracking targets is done intuitively and smoothly after some minor calibration. Why do so many other shooters, Dust included (which I very much enjoy, BTW), have sluggish controls that don't respond as well, then also overshoot when making minor adjustments? I compensate by being more calculated in my engagements, so that I don't have to make as many adjustments in aiming, and use strafing instead. But it would be fun to rush in guns blazing and track targets predictably on occasion as well.
Imp Smash On The Brink CRONOS. 116	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:22:00 - [2] - Quote Dust is honestly faster moving than most shooters. It has has larger increments of aim difference between levels. Edit note: hit detection, while vastly superior to older builds, still isn't quite down right.
AndyPandy Puschel Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 18	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:29:00 - [3] - Quote xVxxMAVERICKxxVx wrote: Why do so many other shooters, Dust included (which I very much enjoy, BTW), have sluggish controls that don't respond as well, then also overshoot when making minor adjustments? short answer: Experienced FPS Developers long answer: The DUST Dev team utilizing Unreal Engine 3 on PS3 is by no means a "winning combination", its a "economical" solution to release a FPS on console. So yes maybe if DUST "survives", by which i mean keeps getting money from CCP/EvE they will learn and we have "good" controls next year or in 2 years. Its a matter of experienced developers, since obviously not every DEV team can put out the same quality or otherwise all FPS would be at the same level, mechanically and gameplay wise. It seems to me that getting the controls right, is not a simple matter of tweaking some curves and acceleration, but the knowledge and experience on what to focus and what worked in the past. So its a hard job to get this right at your first try. So yes the Dev team needs to listed to there customers and iterate until they nailed it, then next time they will get it right at launch.
Panther Alpha Commando Perkone Caldari State 378	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:39:00 - [4] - Quote AndyPandy Puschel wrote: xVxxMAVERICKxxVx wrote: Why do so many other shooters, Dust included (which I very much enjoy, BTW), have sluggish controls that don't respond as well, then also overshoot when making minor adjustments? short answer: Experienced FPS Developers long answer: The DUST Dev team utilizing Unreal Engine 3 on PS3 is by no means a "winning combination", its a "economical" solution to release a FPS on console. So yes maybe if DUST "survives", by which i mean keeps getting money from CCP/EvE they will learn and we have "good" controls next year or in 2 years. Its a matter of experienced developers, since obviously not every DEV team can put out the same quality or otherwise all FPS would be at the same level, mechanically and gameplay wise. It seems to me that getting the controls right, is not a simple matter of tweaking some curves and acceleration, but the knowledge and experience on what to focus and what worked in the past. So its a hard job to get this right at your first try. So yes the Dev team needs to listed to there customers and iterate until they nailed it, then next time they will get it right at launch. Remember that the DS3 is actually design to work with games.. Which means that should have a comfortable setting margin. The mouse is design to be Accurate and Precise. The only reason why i can see CCP having problems with it, is because they are trying to be "Creative".
AndyPandy Puschel Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 18	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:55:00 - [5] - Quote Panther Alpha wrote: Remember that the DS3 is actually design to work with games.. Which means that should have a comfortable setting margin. The mouse is design to be Accurate and Precise. The controllers as we know them today, undergone a long process of iterations to get to its current forms. They are mainly designed to be "held by two hands" comfortably in front of a TV set, while providing inputs to games. The "sticks"y are a logical and "cheap" consequence of providing additional and more precise inputs to a existing pad solution, compared to the org. N64 controller. So while the controllers are "designed" for games, they are mainly designed to be used in front of TV. So there is no inherent "quality" over any other input device, given the limitations. In fact the limitations of a input device often define, how well its inputs work for certain kinds of games. Quote: The only reason why i can see CCP having problems with it, is because they are trying to be "Creative". Not really or otherwise all FPS would have the same "perfect" controls, which is by my own past experiences not true at all. Like i noted, nailing the controls and feedbacks seems kinda tricky and hard to get right, for unexperienced developers. I also don't see any "creative" aspects in there controls? What are u talking about precisely?
stlcarlos989 SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 59	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:55:00 - [6] - Quote When I originally heard about this game CCP said there would NOT have KBM support, then all the eve online players complained that they couldn't compete against the experienced console FPS gamers in closed beta and CCP gave in. CCP has to worry about balancing the DS3, PS Move, and KBM. By worrying abut balancing 3 different inputs they made their job 10 times harder. I have no doubt if it was only DS3 as they originally said the controls would be more precise, less sluggish, and easier to control.
Panther Alpha Commando Perkone Caldari State 378	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:59:00 - [7] - Quote AndyPandy Puschel wrote: Panther Alpha wrote: Remember that the DS3 is actually design to work with games.. Which means that should have a comfortable setting margin. The mouse is design to be Accurate and Precise. The controllers as we know them today, undergone a long process of iterations to get to its current forms. They are mainly designed to be "held by two hands" comfortably in front of a TV set, while providing inputs to games. The "sticks"y are a logical and "cheap" consequence of providing additional and more precise inputs to a existing pad solution, compared to the org. N64 controller. So while the controllers are "designed" for games, they are mainly designed to be used in front of TV. So there is no inherent "quality" over any other input device, given the limitations. In fact the limitations of a input device often define, how well its inputs work for certain kinds of games. Quote: The only reason why i can see CCP having problems with it, is because they are trying to be "Creative". Not really or otherwise all FPS would have the same "perfect" controls, which is by my own past experiences not true at all. Like i noted, nailing the controls and feedbacks seems kinda tricky and hard to get right, for unexperienced developers. I also don't see any "creative" aspects in there controls? What are u talking about precisely? Wrong... and wrong... but it will take me to long to explain why, and i'm to lazy.
AndyPandy Puschel Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 19	Posted - 2013.06.04 14:03:00 - [8] - Quote stlcarlos989 wrote: I have no doubt If u have no "doubt" u must have been working at CCP and are a senior FPS developer, so what is your real CCP nametag?
stlcarlos989 SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 61	Posted - 2013.06.04 14:08:00 - [9] - Quote AndyPandy Puschel wrote: stlcarlos989 wrote: I have no doubt If u have no "doubt" u must have been working at CCP and are a senior FPS developer, so what is your real CCP nametag? Lol no just common sense, balancing 3 things vs fine tuning just 1 thing.
Panther Alpha Commando Perkone Caldari State 378	Posted - 2013.06.04 14:13:00 - [10] - Quote AndyPandy Puschel wrote: stlcarlos989 wrote: I have no doubt If u have no "doubt" u must have been working at CCP and are a senior FPS developer, so what is your real CCP nametag? Panther Alpha wrote: Wrong... and wrong... but it will take me to long to explain why, and i'm to lazy. bah than don't give a troll answer just stating "wrong...", if u are too lazy to give a real answer/comment, don't even bother to comment, since thats just being a douche. lol.. mate.. I just don't want to spend 30 minutes writing about it. But your previous post is very close to an explanation of why... so i can't see why i need to explained again with different words.

AndyPandy Puschel Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 20	Posted - 2013.06.04 14:18:00 - [11] - Quote Panther Alpha wrote: lol.. mate.. I just don't want to spend 30 minutes writing about it. But your previous post is very close to an explanation of why... so i can't see why i need to explained again with different words. What? So u agree "partially" with my post and thats why u comment "Wrong... Wrong"? Thats a strange way of agreeing, so oki i'm sorry that i misunderstand your comment.
Panther Alpha Commando Perkone Caldari State 378	Posted - 2013.06.04 14:22:00 - [12] - Quote AndyPandy Puschel wrote: Panther Alpha wrote: lol.. mate.. I just don't want to spend 30 minutes writing about it. But your previous post is very close to an explanation of why... so i can't see why i need to explained again with different words. What? So u agree "partially" with my post and thats why u comment "Wrong... Wrong"? Thats a strange way of agreeing, so oki i'm sorry that i misunderstand your comment. No i meant "stlcarlos989" fist post... sorry I trying to multitask right now.. and i failing miserably.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Unclaimed. 560	Posted - 2013.06.04 15:27:00 - [13] - Quote stlcarlos989 wrote: When I originally heard about this game CCP said there would NOT have KBM support, then all the eve online players complained that they couldn't compete against the experienced console FPS gamers in closed beta and CCP gave in. CCP has to worry about balancing the DS3, PS Move, and KBM. By worrying abut balancing 3 different inputs they made their job 10 times harder. I have no doubt if it was only DS3 as they originally said the controls would be more precise, less sluggish, and easier to control. Absolutely true, CPP has made it's job a lot harder. It's not a bad idea in principle, but is cart-before-the-horse thinking. I'm thinking of it as short(ha!)-term pain for long-term gain. If they can get these multiple inputs working together it think it will enrich the game and the playerbase. I'm thinking that what CCP is up against right now is that good fps mechanics are hard to write, and there are most likely many non-obvious 'tricks' experienced fps developer use to get good feel out of their controls. It's easy to forget that some of these franchises have 10 years experience with this arcane art, and a lot of trial and error testing under their belts. True, CCP has brought Dice and Zipper experience onboard, but there is prolly no way to avoid a certain learning curve whan it comes to these things. And CCP is doing it in a much more complex destributed-battleserver single-shard environment. And that is what gives me patience and hope for the future of core mechanics in DUST. Fool that i am ;)
S Park Finner BetaMax. CRONOS. 126	Posted - 2013.06.04 16:53:00 - [14] - Quote A very long time ago one of the first user interface rules developed was DWIM (Do What I Mean). The idea was that folks have expectations about what will happen when they use an input device and see the results on an output device. But people screw up -- they mis-type words, the jerk a controller around, they shake when they try to point to something with a mouse. Sometimes people don't know what to expect -- look at new players pressing controller buttons just to see what will happen. Sometimes people have expectations from previous experience that the current system doesn't match -- switching from one window system to another and trying to figure out how to minimize a window or what happens when you double click on a title bar. DUST 514 has suffered at many levels from bad user interface design primarily because it ignored DWIM's hard learned lessons. It has not balanced innovation in experience with user expectation. To complicate matters it has tried to create an input environment where no input device provides an edge to it's users over other input devices. I believe that last part is an insurmountable task. The reason various input devices have persisted is because they have advantages for various kinds of activities. What's more, the users of those devices have expectations built on generations of refinement. So how has CCP faired in the challenges it set for itself with DUST 514? Adhere to existing console conventions where it makes no difference -- like what keys do in menus -- I give them a "D+" in that. I put the reason for their performance on lack of resources or experience -- PS 3 conventions are inconsistently adhered to. Meet the expectations of controller users while maintaining fidelity with the physics of their game environment -- I give them a "C" for this for player movement, a "D" for shooting mechanics and a "D-" for vehicle mechanics. I lay part of the problem on their wanting the game physics to be mapped to the controller behaviour in a "realistic" way. Fat suits turn more slowly, thrust based aircraft handle differently than winged aircraft (though I can't explain LAVS ). But part is back to resources / experience -- why put all vehicle controls on one stick at first? Were they so enamoured with those circular menus that they decided to ignore the existing movement standards? Meet the expectation of KB/Mouse users while maintaining fidelity with the physics of their game environment and not giving a game play edge to KB/Mouse users -- Here is where I believe the poorest decision was made. It may have been driven by resource constraints, but a "native" KB/Mouse environment with all the conventions KB/Mouse users have come to expect would have been a better choice than what we have. One current example is forcing the use of the wheel selection menu when function or number keys would have been a more standard choice. With regard to balancing KB/Mouse and Controller -- I don't think CCP should have tried. Do the best implementation of both you can and let the players fight it out on the forums and in the battlefield. If it turns out one is better than another in heads up competition and with equally experienced players then you've done two good things -- you've gathered invaluable information on the question of KB/M vs Controller and you can then use that information to level the playing field if you really have to. TL:DR CCP has made some bad decisions with regard to user interface -- perhaps because of lack of experience and resources. They are recovering but unless some of those decisions are changed they will never be as good as the competition.
Cashern X Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2	Posted - 2013.06.04 16:56:00 - [15] - Quote Panther Alpha wrote: AndyPandy Puschel wrote: Panther Alpha wrote: Remember that the DS3 is actually design to work with games.. Which means that should have a comfortable setting margin. The mouse is design to be Accurate and Precise. The controllers as we know them today, undergone a long process of iterations to get to its current forms. They are mainly designed to be "held by two hands" comfortably in front of a TV set, while providing inputs to games. The "sticks"y are a logical and "cheap" consequence of providing additional and more precise inputs to a existing pad solution, compared to the org. N64 controller. So while the controllers are "designed" for games, they are mainly designed to be used in front of TV. So there is no inherent "quality" over any other input device, given the limitations. In fact the limitations of a input device often define, how well its inputs work for certain kinds of games. Quote: The only reason why i can see CCP having problems with it, is because they are trying to be "Creative". Not really or otherwise all FPS would have the same "perfect" controls, which is by my own past experiences not true at all. Like i noted, nailing the controls and feedbacks seems kinda tricky and hard to get right, for unexperienced developers. I also don't see any "creative" aspects in there controls? What are u talking about precisely? Wrong... and wrong... but it will take me to long to explain why, and i'm to lazy. lol idiot
stlcarlos989 SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 61	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:15:00 - [16] - Quote They are having problems because they are trying to fine tune and balance 3 different controller types. They should have perfected DS3 before implementing kbm or ps move.
Panther Alpha Commando Perkone Caldari State 379	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:53:00 - [17] - Quote Cashern X wrote: Panther Alpha wrote: AndyPandy Puschel wrote: Panther Alpha wrote: Remember that the DS3 is actually design to work with games.. Which means that should have a comfortable setting margin. The mouse is design to be Accurate and Precise. The controllers as we know them today, undergone a long process of iterations to get to its current forms. They are mainly designed to be "held by two hands" comfortably in front of a TV set, while providing inputs to games. The "sticks"y are a logical and "cheap" consequence of providing additional and more precise inputs to a existing pad solution, compared to the org. N64 controller. So while the controllers are "designed" for games, they are mainly designed to be used in front of TV. So there is no inherent "quality" over any other input device, given the limitations. In fact the limitations of a input device often define, how well its inputs work for certain kinds of games. Quote: The only reason why i can see CCP having problems with it, is because they are trying to be "Creative". Not really or otherwise all FPS would have the same "perfect" controls, which is by my own past experiences not true at all. Like i noted, nailing the controls and feedbacks seems kinda tricky and hard to get right, for unexperienced developers. I also don't see any "creative" aspects in there controls? What are u talking about precisely? Wrong... and wrong... but it will take me to long to explain why, and i'm to lazy. lol idiot Do i really have to explain this ... ? oh well. The design of Gamepads ( DS3 ), is not just so it can be "held by two hands" in front of a TV. Is the result of years of development, of how to add the functionality of a keyboard, and a mouse into one device, so all that functions that will normally be separated by 2 different devices, with lots of unnecessary buttons, can be controlled with 4 fingers ( 2 in Each hand ). The actual analog axis, is design to emulate the mouse input with just one finger, instead of the full hand. By "creative" i meant ; CCP is trying to balance the game-play, by comparing data between the mouse and the DS3, and then Literally " Nerfing " the device that is the most effective in the game.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Unclaimed. 562	Posted - 2013.06.04 18:28:00 - [18] - Quote Balancing KB/M against DS3 Primary goal: Fidelity of player inputs to character outputs. Motivation for primary goal: Anything else is frustrating to players. Not negotiable given expectations of modern gamers. Primary constraint: Inherent object(suit/vehicle/weapon) physics. Motivation for primary constraint: A level playing field in a high-stakes and highly competitive environment. Also non-negotiable.
KOBLAKA1 Opus Arcana Orion Empire 28	Posted - 2013.06.04 18:31:00 - [19] - Quote Honestly I'd be happy if they changed squad orders and melee those are the only control issues that give me problems.
AndyPandy Puschel Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 23	Posted - 2013.06.06 10:07:00 - [20] - Quote Panther Alpha wrote: Do i really have to explain this ... ? oh well. The design of Gamepads ( DS3 ), is not just so it can be "held by two hands" in front of a TV. Is the result of years of development, of how to add the functionality of a keyboard, and a mouse into one device, so all that functions that will normally be separated by 2 different devices, with lots of unnecessary buttons, can be controlled with 4 fingers ( 2 in Each hand ). The actual analog axis, is design to emulate the mouse input with just one finger, instead of the full hand. By "creative" i meant ; CCP is trying to balance the game-play, by comparing data between the mouse and the DS3, and then Literally " Nerfing " the device that is the most effective in the game. Yes, i agree that can also be confirmed by wiki, while i think the joystick also plays a large role in early thumbstick designs. What u seem to misunderstand is the simple fact, that one of the main design limitation/goal is still "held by two hands in front of a TV" no matter what othr design goals they had in mind. If u want to add a mouse and a KB, u will most likely end up with something like a trackball or touch-pad with buttons or a mouse with lots of buttons. So first off, no they did never wanted to add "keyboard" functionality, don't confuse a "button" with a "key". The special function of a "keyboard" is a subset of what a button does and it was never the goal to provide real "typing" capabilities to a game controller, since at the time the thumbstick controller was designed, there was no need to design a typing/gaming input hybrid device. Secondly the "held by two hands in front of a TV" design restriction/goal is one of the main reasons why the controller looks like it does, otherwise the mouse would have also won on gaming consoles, given the overwhelming success of 3D/FPS games. So yes the goal was to get more mouse-like precise inputs, but at the same time, still being able to primarily play in front of a TV. So the input device must be a hand-held device and not a table based device, like a mouse/KB.



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