DUST Search - Armor VS Shields (Vehicles)

Harpyja wrote:

Back in Chromosome, once I literally lost 3/4 of my shields in less than a quarter of a minute driving in reverse over bumpy terrain.

For those that say that we get damage mods, you're just plain ignorant. In order for my Gunnlogi to have a heavy azeotropic shield extender, a heavy clarity shield booster, and advanced missiles, I need a local power diagnostic system and a local power grid expansion module in both my lows (that's +22%). I haven't even trained up turret upgrades now because I can't fit a god **** damage mod.

Plus, my Falchion requires two local powergrid expansion modules and a local power diagnostic system (+37%) to fit the same fit as my Gunnlogi but with proto missiles. Again, I have no room for a damage mod because I have something like 20 PG left.

Also, may I add that armor reps are much better than shield boosters. An armor tank can rep back full health with one activation, while if I run away with my shields nearly depleted, I need multiple activations of my booster. Also, you can increase the amount an armor reps heal with skills, but with the shield booster you can't; it only increases recharge rate. Yes, thank you CCP, my shields recharge at a rate of .6 hp/s faster.

Shield tanking needs to be like it is in EVE. I should be able to get from 0 to full shields in a matter of seconds, during which time I'll have fled or destroyed my threat and then I can wait before I can burst tank again. Armor needs to be the slow and steady one, not shields.

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Eurydice Itzhak Militaires Sans Jeux 55	Posted - 2013.05.31 22:13:00 - [1] - Quote Please note: Most numbers are pulled from my rear end and need to be corrected but the overall message is still correct. Lets compare modules. They both have access to 15% passive hardeners. Armor has access to 25% hardeners with a much higher uptime. I believe they're up for 30 and down for 15? Shield has 30% hardeners that are up for 10 seconds and down for 30(?) So armor has the better resistances. Armor repairers are also probably around 10 fold as effective as shield boosters are. So they have similar HP with armor having more EHP due to better hardeners and an easier way to recover it with repairers. What exactly is the benefit of shields? Where is the field where I'm supposed to excel compared to armor? I used to be a lot faster but come uprising that isn't so true. Before anyone points to passive shield regen, the shield on my Gunnlogi regenerates at around 30s/s. That is absolutely nothing.
BobThe843CakeMan PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 376	Posted - 2013.05.31 22:15:00 - [2] - Quote Eurydice Itzhak wrote: Please note: Most numbers are pulled from my rear end and need to be corrected but the overall message is still correct. Lets compare modules. They both have access to 15% passive hardeners. Armor has access to 25% hardeners with a much higher uptime. I believe they're up for 30 and down for 15? Shield has 30% hardeners that are up for 10 seconds and down for 30(?) So armor has the better resistances. Armor repairers are also probably around 10 fold as effective as shield boosters are. So they have similar HP with armor having more EHP due to better hardeners and an easier way to recover it with repairers. What exactly is the benefit of shields? Where is the field where I'm supposed to excel compared to armor? I used to be a lot faster but come uprising that isn't so true. Before anyone points to passive shield regen, the shield on my Gunnlogi regenerates at around 30s/s. That is absolutely nothing. Well the benefit it is supposed to have is damage mods. but thts about it.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 1952	Posted - 2013.05.31 22:23:00 - [3] - Quote Shield ADS are far more maneuverable and are clearly superior in air to air combat.
TheAmazing FlyingPig Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 644	Posted - 2013.05.31 22:26:00 - [4] - Quote Check this thread I made a while ago. Plenty of posts with pros / cons of each tank type. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=81144
Spkr4theDead Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 131	Posted - 2013.05.31 22:29:00 - [5] - Quote BobThe843CakeMan wrote: Eurydice Itzhak wrote: Please note: Most numbers are pulled from my rear end and need to be corrected but the overall message is still correct. Lets compare modules. They both have access to 15% passive hardeners. Armor has access to 25% hardeners with a much higher uptime. I believe they're up for 30 and down for 15? Shield has 30% hardeners that are up for 10 seconds and down for 30(?) So armor has the better resistances. Armor repairers are also probably around 10 fold as effective as shield boosters are. So they have similar HP with armor having more EHP due to better hardeners and an easier way to recover it with repairers. What exactly is the benefit of shields? Where is the field where I'm supposed to excel compared to armor? I used to be a lot faster but come uprising that isn't so true. Before anyone points to passive shield regen, the shield on my Gunnlogi regenerates at around 30s/s. That is absolutely nothing. Well the benefit it is supposed to have is damage mods. but thts about it. Maybe during Chromosome, but not now. Now you need two PG expansion modules to have even mediocre shield strength. Get worse when thinking about passive resistance mods and heavy boosters.
BobThe843CakeMan PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies 376	Posted - 2013.05.31 22:31:00 - [6] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: BobThe843CakeMan wrote: Eurydice Itzhak wrote: Please note: Most numbers are pulled from my rear end and need to be corrected but the overall message is still correct. Lets compare modules. They both have access to 15% passive hardeners. Armor has access to 25% hardeners with a much higher uptime. I believe they're up for 30 and down for 15? Shield has 30% hardeners that are up for 10 seconds and down for 30(?) So armor has the better resistances. Armor repairers are also probably around 10 fold as effective as shield boosters are. So they have similar HP with armor having more EHP due to better hardeners and an easier way to recover it with repairers. What exactly is the benefit of shields? Where is the field where I'm supposed to excel compared to armor? I used to be a lot faster but come uprising that isn't so true. Before anyone points to passive shield regen, the shield on my Gunnlogi regenerates at around 30s/s. That is absolutely nothing. Well the benefit it is supposed to have is damage mods. but thts about it. Maybe during Chromosome, but not now. Now you need two PG expansion modules to have even mediocre shield strength. Get worse when thinking about passive resistance mods and heavy boosters. my falco tank when i had shield tanks before the respec had 3 damage mods and i had a decent fit. but i couldn't kill a good armor tank. but pretty much destroied any shield tank. As of now i use armor.
Xocoyol Zaraoul Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 292	Posted - 2013.05.31 22:31:00 - [7] - Quote As a shielder you are 24/7 "repping" which means you don't have to pull away from the battlefield as often, you perform the best against infantry as most infantry weapons that are AV are explosive, great against armor and rubbish against shields. As an armor tanker you take every single hit, large and small versus infantry, but the upside is you don't fear enemy HAVs as much, as Blasters and Railguns have a 10% bonus against shields and a 10% penalty versus armor, which is a huge difference overall (20% gap). Go armor if anti-HAV, go shields if anti-infantry. As a shield tanker, I literally ignore enemy swarm launchers unless adv/proto, and even then I have enough time to scram away. Unfortunately I am at a huge disadvantage against enemy armor HAVs as the blaster/railgun damage modifiers screw me over.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 275	Posted - 2013.05.31 22:32:00 - [8] - Quote 30 shields per second... lol thats what my caldari logi's shields recharge at.
Eurydice Itzhak Militaires Sans Jeux 55	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:32:00 - [9] - Quote gbghg wrote: Shield ADS are far more maneuverable and are clearly superior in air to air combat. That is actually quite nice. I'm glad to hear it. I've only got one point into ADS and I've never been very big on/good at dropship piloting but I like to hear it has a place. Zdub 303 wrote: 30 shields per second... lol thats what my caldari logi's shields recharge at. I know right? Completely ridiculous. Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: As a shielder you are 24/7 "repping" which means you don't have to pull away from the battlefield as often...most infantry weapons that are AV are explosive.... An incorrect statement followed by misinformation. An armor tank repairs so much compared to a booster that they have to run away and hide less. Notice you wont see a shield tank on an ambush map that has little in the way of cover but you'll still see a ton of Madrugars. Also AV is split 50/50 its just people rarely carry flux grenades but they devastate shields way harder than AV grenades damage armor. (But they are rarely carried which is a plus).[/quote] BobThe843CakeMan wrote: my falco tank when i had shield tanks before the respec had 3 damage mods and i had a decent fit. but i couldn't kill a good armor tank. but pretty much destroied any shield tank. As of now i use armor. It would seem like you're an awful tanker then if you fit 3 damage mods on a falcion and it had a "good fit" you cannot fit a Heavy shield extender and a heavy booster without 2 PG extenders. A tank with 4k Shields and what 6k EHP total is not a tank at all, it is a money vacuum.
dabest2evadoit7 Cyberdyne Systems and Technology The Universal Accord 68	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:40:00 - [10] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: BobThe843CakeMan wrote: Eurydice Itzhak wrote: Please note: Most numbers are pulled from my rear end and need to be corrected but the overall message is still correct. Lets compare modules. They both have access to 15% passive hardeners. Armor has access to 25% hardeners with a much higher uptime. I believe they're up for 30 and down for 15? Shield has 30% hardeners that are up for 10 seconds and down for 30(?) So armor has the better resistances. Armor repairers are also probably around 10 fold as effective as shield boosters are. So they have similar HP with armor having more EHP due to better hardeners and an easier way to recover it with repairers. What exactly is the benefit of shields? Where is the field where I'm supposed to excel compared to armor? I used to be a lot faster but come uprising that isn't so true. Before anyone points to passive shield regen, the shield on my Gunnlogi regenerates at around 30s/s. That is absolutely nothing. Well the benefit it is supposed to have is damage mods. but thts about it. Maybe during Chromosome, but not now. Now you need two PG expansion modules to have even mediocre shield strength. Get worse when thinking about passive resistance mods and heavy boosters. Yep, so true. I have to have 2 pg extenders in the only 2 low slots on the gunnlogi. Three to have a decent fit on the enforcer. I skilled into shield tanks for the speed, however CCP managed to take that away. I work with it hoping they will realize taking the core skills for PG, CPU, Armor, and Shields was a bad idea.

Eurydice Itzhak Militaires Sans Jeux 55	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:47:00 - [11] - Quote And just another tidbit to anyone who thinks those 30 shields per second matter... I guarantee you I lose one hundred percent more shields to small bumps in the road than I passively regenerate over a whole match.
Xocoyol Zaraoul Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 292	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:49:00 - [12] - Quote Eurydice Itzhak wrote: I guarantee you I lose one hundred percent more shields to small bumps in the road than I passively regenerate over a whole match. That makes you a ****** driver, and those are not small bumps at that point. You can't tell me that over the course of a minute you've done more then 1800 damage to yourself from bumps alone...
Eurydice Itzhak Militaires Sans Jeux 55	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:54:00 - [13] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: That makes you a ****** driver, and those are not small bumps at that point. You can't tell me that over the course of a minute you've done more then 1800 damage to yourself from bumps alone... Who said anything about a minute? Learn to read? Over the course of a match good sir. Also yes, they are small bumps. You take less damage climbing down mountainsides than you do hitting a small bump in a straightaway. Go figure.
Knight SoIaire Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 704	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:55:00 - [14] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Eurydice Itzhak wrote: I guarantee you I lose one hundred percent more shields to small bumps in the road than I passively regenerate over a whole match. That makes you a ****** driver, and those are not small bumps at that point. You can't tell me that over the course of a minute you've done more then 1800 damage to yourself from bumps alone... You can lose hundreds of shields to one meter high bump. Shields are terrible when it comes to collision damage, in fact its a known tactic for some heavily tanked Armour tanks to go full speed and ram Shield tanks. I've escaped with 100 shield at times, and have lost my tank to minor bumps instead of AV.
Eurydice Itzhak Militaires Sans Jeux 55	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:03:00 - [15] - Quote Also I would like some ideas to take to the feedback/requests side of things but I don't really have any good ones. Stronger passive resistance modules? Stronger Boosters? Stronger passive regen to make passive tanking possible?
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 32	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:37:00 - [16] - Quote The best shield hardener is 30% less damage while the armor hardener is 25%. But the armor one is still better. Why? Because the armor hardener is active for a full minute with a 15 second cool down, while the shield one is active for 10 seconds (what a joke) with 30 second cool down.
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 173	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:40:00 - [17] - Quote shield tanks are fast and passively rep. shield boosters start instantly armor reps need time to warm up(you have no idea how big a deal this is until you need reps up). armor tanks don't fit damage mods... ever.
EKH0 0ne R.I.f.t 53	Posted - 2013.06.01 23:42:00 - [18] - Quote Eurydice Itzhak wrote: Please note: Most numbers are pulled from my rear end and need to be corrected but the overall message is still correct. . Then why the hell should i read it?
Eurydice Itzhak Militaires Sans Jeux 55	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:04:00 - [19] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: shield tanks are fast and passively rep. shield boosters start instantly armor reps need time to warm up(you have no idea how big a deal this is until you need reps up). armor tanks don't fit damage mods... ever. Armor tanks are faster in uprising, passive rep has been discussed and is laughably small. We lose more to bumps than we rep passively. Shield booster do start immediately which is nice but I would rather get the extra four thousand HP that an armor rep repairs than have it start a second and a half sooner. I had a Madrugar and a Gunnlogi back in Chromosome when I could afford both, I understand how both works and I'm not calling for a nerf to armor just a buff to shield. A field where they excel in.
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 75	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:06:00 - [20] - Quote Back in Chromosome, once I literally lost 3/4 of my shields in less than a quarter of a minute driving in reverse over bumpy terrain. For those that say that we get damage mods, you're just plain ignorant. In order for my Gunnlogi to have a heavy azeotropic shield extender, a heavy clarity shield booster, and advanced missiles, I need a local power diagnostic system and a local power grid expansion module in both my lows (that's +22%). I haven't even trained up turret upgrades now because I can't fit a god **** damage mod. Plus, my Falchion requires two local powergrid expansion modules and a local power diagnostic system (+37%) to fit the same fit as my Gunnlogi but with proto missiles. Again, I have no room for a damage mod because I have something like 20 PG left. Also, may I add that armor reps are much better than shield boosters. An armor tank can rep back full health with one activation, while if I run away with my shields nearly depleted, I need multiple activations of my booster. Also, you can increase the amount an armor reps heal with skills, but with the shield booster you can't; it only increases recharge rate. Yes, thank you CCP, my shields recharge at a rate of .6 hp/s faster. Shield tanking needs to be like it is in EVE. I should be able to get from 0 to full shields in a matter of seconds, during which time I'll have fled or destroyed my threat and then I can wait before I can burst tank again. Armor needs to be the slow and steady one, not shields.

Eurydice Itzhak Militaires Sans Jeux 55	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:11:00 - [21] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Back in Chromosome, once I literally lost 3/4 of my shields in less than a quarter of a minute driving in reverse over bumpy terrain. For those that say that we get damage mods, you're just plain ignorant. In order for my Gunnlogi to have a heavy azeotropic shield extender, a heavy clarity shield booster, and advanced missiles, I need a local power diagnostic system and a local power grid expansion module in both my lows (that's +22%). I haven't even trained up turret upgrades now because I can't fit a god **** damage mod. Plus, my Falchion requires two local powergrid expansion modules and a local power diagnostic system (+37%) to fit the same fit as my Gunnlogi but with proto missiles. Again, I have no room for a damage mod because I have something like 20 PG left. Also, may I add that armor reps are much better than shield boosters. An armor tank can rep back full health with one activation, while if I run away with my shields nearly depleted, I need multiple activations of my booster. Also, you can increase the amount an armor reps heal with skills, but with the shield booster you can't; it only increases recharge rate. Yes, thank you CCP, my shields recharge at a rate of .6 hp/s faster. Shield tanking needs to be like it is in EVE. I should be able to get from 0 to full shields in a matter of seconds, during which time I'll have fled or destroyed my threat and then I can wait before I can burst tank again. Armor needs to be the slow and steady one, not shields. I am glad you have some EVE experience as I have none. Could you further detail how shield tanking is different in EVE? I would like to compile something for feedback/requests forum but I can't put my finger on how it needs to be better. Also the bit about the Armor skill increasing modules effectiveness is too true. Why does armor get better base modules with better efficiency from skills while shields get worse base modules and no benefits from shield skills?
Shiro Mokuzan GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 108	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:11:00 - [22] - Quote I think for one thing, base passive regeneration should be increased--maybe around 100 to start. Then fitting shield regenerators might be viable. Basically, shields need something that they do better than armor. Passive regeneration isn't cutting it right now. It's more of a convenience thing than actually staying alive.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 202	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:14:00 - [23] - Quote Considering Madrugars take so much darn damage from AV grenades (which are pretty much ubiquitous as of late) and have to use a low slot to fit a PG module (or fit LAV modules, which has the same effect of nerfing survivability), I think they are about on par. However, the damage taken by bumps is insane. The 'gravity' change really seems to just obliterate shields. My Madrugar has like 900 Shields and 400+ can be eaten by just trying to navigate over the rocky terrain. I can't give exact numbers because Armor loses like 1/10 the amount of bumps but I can see plenty of Gunnlogi's accidentally killing themselves by lowering their shields so low that AV done gone blowed 'em up. PS: either reduce PG cost for modules or reintroduce a PG skill for Vehicles.
Shiro Mokuzan GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 108	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:19:00 - [24] - Quote Eurydice Itzhak wrote: I am glad you have some EVE experience as I have none. Could you further detail how shield tanking is different in EVE? I would like to compile something for feedback/requests forum but I can't put my finger on how it needs to be better. Also the bit about the Armor skill increasing modules effectiveness is too true. Why does armor get better base modules with better efficiency from skills while shields get worse base modules and no benefits from shield skills? Well, the main difference is that shield takes a certain specific amount of time to go from 0% to 100%. That is how ships are rated for shield regen, not by hp/s gained (like in DUST). This means that if you take a ship that has a 120 second shield recharge time (120 seconds from 0 shields to full), and increase its max shield HP, you're also increasing its hp/s shield regen, because now it's recovering more shield over those 120 seconds than before. Shield rechargers decrease the time it takes to recharge shields, again increasing hp/s gained. This means that certain ships can have a completely passive tank, meaning without any shield boosters. This is good because in EVE, all modules require energy from you capacitor to activate instead of having this uptime/downtime system we have in DUST. You can keep modules active as long as you have energy to keep them going. So active shield hardeners can stay up all the time when in combat.
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 75	Posted - 2013.06.02 00:30:00 - [25] - Quote @Eurydice Shield boosters in EVE pulse roughly three times faster than armor reps. Though each pulse reps less than an armor rep pulse, shields/s is higher than armor/s. The cost of being able to take more DPS than armor is higher capacitor usage for shield boosters. This means that shield boosters are better for 'burst' tanking, while armor reps can in many cases be turned on indefinitely. There was a new module that was added recently: the ancillary shield booster. It draws no capacitor but requires capacitor charges (essentially ammo). It's in fact stronger than the normal booster, but the cost for that is a 60s reload time once the charges are used up. At the same time armor got a Reactive Armor Hardener which shifts resistances over time. These two new modules support the ideas of burst tanking with shields and long sustained tanking with armor. There are also modules that increase the effectiveness of shield boosters, some as high as 40%, if I recall correctly. Another complete difference between shields in DUST and EVE is how recharge works. In EVE, shields recharge in a certain amount of time. This means that increasing your total amount of shields actually increases your recharge rate as well. To sum it all up, shields in EVE can absorb more damage than armor can, as long as the boosters are active, and passive tanking is a lot stronger than it is in DUST. Edit: shields cover the 'extremes' of tanking. High capacitor usage for burst tanking, or zero capacitor passive tanking. Though passive is weaker, it can be much better because if capacitor warfare comes into play, active tanks can easily die to passive tanks.
Eurydice Itzhak Militaires Sans Jeux 55	Posted - 2013.06.02 01:06:00 - [26] - Quote I've noted this down to start making something to post on the feedback forums. I appreciate the information Harpyja and Shiro. EVE side has the map laid down for shield tanking, I wonder why they completely abandoned it and screwed everything up? It also made clear how to word the main issue for shield tanking in dust. Armor tanking is better at burst tanking and sustained tanking. Shield is better at nothing.
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 75	Posted - 2013.06.02 01:14:00 - [27] - Quote Going a bit further in detail, the way shields recharge is actually different in EVE. If you were to actually take your total shield and divide it by shield recharge time, you'll get a value that's actually less than what the fitting window tells you. Why? Because shields don't recharge at a uniform rate. In fact, your highest recharge rate comes at roughly one third shields. You will have your highest recharge rate at that point. Shields recharge relatively slow at 0 shield, but you're either dead when you hit that point or you would've fled before you hit zero, so it doesn't really matter how fast your shields recharge under 20%. So as you are near max shields, your shields might recharge as slow as 1hp/s, even though you might have a recharge rate of 180hp/s at one third shields. The benefit to this kind of recharge system is that you have to wait a smaller amount of time to get the majority of your shields back as opposed to a system where your recharge is uniform throughout. This means that you get to go back into battle quicker with a larger percentage of your shields back. I'd actually prefer to have this variable recharge system in DUST as opposed to the current system.


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