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Utsuru Kaiju
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
62
   |
Posted - 2013.05.31 21:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Having keyboard and mouse support was initially what got my interest at first with Dust, I have the most experience with Kb/M and it just feels better to me, so I was excited to see how it worked on a PS3 game. In Chromosome, mouse aiming felt pretty good, acceptable at the very least. I really had no complaints about it, but with Uprising they completely destroyed how the mouse is suppose to work in a game. Oh, and before you go on a rant about "just use a controller" or "mouse and keyboard shouldn't be allowed" take note that you too can own this futuristic space-age technology for the low price of around $20 combined. If you were to purchase a new DS3, you're looking at easily double that and perhaps more. The mouse and keyboard is in the game, however it should work properly.
Now, onto what is going on with the mouse aiming. I haven't seen anyone really bring it up, I also can't believe how blatantly obvious the problem was either and how it's not more of a prominent topic.
What I would like mouse users to do is just a simple test. Load into the match, now pick a visual marker somewhere on the battlefield. It's easiest if you just go in the MCC and find a point. Take note of that marker, now place your mouse all the way to the edge of your mouse pad on either the left or right side, now slowly move your mouse across the mouse pad and pay attention to how many rotations/degrees you turn. Now do the same thing, find a point, put your mouse at the edge of the pad, but this time move the mouse across very quickly. You should have turned much, much less.
I use just a regular sized mouse pad, and when I move slowly from one end to the other, I can do about 2 rotations, or 720 degrees. When I move my mouse quickly across the pad, though, I do only about a half a rotation, or 180 degrees.
This is obviously very broken and has made using the mouse effectively nearly impossible. It's as if there's some sort of limiter on how quickly a player can move the mouse which in turn has made it virtually unusable. Regardless of how fast you move the mouse, those inputs should be the same every time. If I move my mouse slowly across the mouse pad and do two full rotations, I expect the same to happen if I do it quickly.
My settings (although this problem should be universal amongst mouse users):
Mouse DPI - 1,000
Mouse Sensitivity - 60
Aim Assist - OFF
Mouse Smoothing - OFF
This needs to be looked into as soon as possible. Please take time to test this yourself and report back your findings.
TL;DR - Why are you on a forum? Do your books need pictures too? |
Matakage
WildCard Ninja Clan
262
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 21:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
MOD POWERS ACTIVATE!
THREAD MOVED TO FEEDBACK/SUGGESTIONS...
what??? didn't work?
*grumble* |
Utsuru Kaiju
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
62
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 00:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bump.
Everyone's so busy posting threads asking for new features and what not when there are countless things that need to be addressed first such as this. Also, to the troll above, this is more of a discussion in general, hence, General Discussions. |
Panther Alpha
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
376
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 00:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Is not problem with the mouse... well... nothing technical.
CCP is the 1st gaming company in history, that decided to "Nerf" the mouse because is to OP. |
Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians
Orion Empire
243
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 00:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aiming speed is capped depending on class as to not screw over pad users. That basic functionality is unlikely to change. |
Utsuru Kaiju
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
62
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 00:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Aiming speed is capped depending on class as to not screw over pad users. That basic functionality is unlikely to change.
I could care less if there is a turning speed cap or an aiming speed cap, as long as the mouse moves as quickly as a DS3 can I don't care, I'm not trying to get an advantage, I just greatly prefer the feel of a mouse and keyboard.
If you would have taken the time to read the OP, you would have seen that is not the issue, and instead of trying to bash these simple concepts into your head I'll refrain in the hopes you will try your best to read. |
Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians
Orion Empire
244
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 00:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Utsuru Kaiju wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:Aiming speed is capped depending on class as to not screw over pad users. That basic functionality is unlikely to change. I could care less if there is a turning speed cap or an aiming speed cap, as long as the mouse moves as quickly as a DS3 can I don't care, I'm not trying to get an advantage, I just greatly prefer the feel of a mouse and keyboard. If you would have taken the time to read the OP, you would have seen that is not the issue, and instead of trying to bash these simple concepts into your head I'll refrain in the hope that you will try your best to read. What you describe is just the cap i am referring to.
Slow mouse movement (just at the cap) takes three seconds from one edge of mousepad to the other, moves 100 arbitrary units per second, totaling at 300 units.
Fast mouse movement ( surpassing cap) takes one second from one edge of mousepad to the other , moves 100 arbitrary units per second, totaling at 100 units.
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Panther Alpha
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
376
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 00:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
Utsuru Kaiju wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:Aiming speed is capped depending on class as to not screw over pad users. That basic functionality is unlikely to change. I could care less if there is a turning speed cap or an aiming speed cap, as long as the mouse moves as quickly as a DS3 can I don't care, I'm not trying to get an advantage, I just greatly prefer the feel of a mouse and keyboard. If you would have taken the time to read the OP, you would have seen that is not the issue, and instead of trying to bash these simple concepts into your head I'll refrain in the hope that you will try your best to read.
If you think about it... is just a joke. Only a company like CCP, will listen to 15 years old's complaining about how "good" mouse users are, and be the first (and most likely last one) to try to "Nerf" a tool, that has been around as long as computers have. |
WyrmHero1945
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
358
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 00:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
DS3 works **** as well. Sometimes it's too slow, others it goes crazy and can't aim well. |
Corpse Raider
Hateocracy2
4
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Posted - 2013.06.04 00:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP has decided to reverse decades of research into human-computer interaction and has deliberately decided to make the mouse hard to use.
Despite controller users effectively driving around automatic aiming, tracking, target selecting bots (some with autofire too), the controller remains a clunky piece of hardware that has not seen any improvements in usability for over a decade. I mean this on both a hardware and software level. Instead of improving the software implimentation of controllers so they can compete with mice, ccp has decided to nerf the mouse.
In nerfing the mouse, they gave no consideration for multi button mice so almost all controller buttons are hard mapped to the keyboard in order to train us kbm users for the next global finger gymnastics championsips
Even so, controller users persist with their inane whining. Ever tried to select a defend order with kbm? It's so bugged it's impossible.
tl;dr Don't expect any love for kbm from ccp. |
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Mitachui
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2013.06.04 00:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
Play EVe, this game is on PS3 deal with it. |
Utsuru Kaiju
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
63
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 00:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Corpse Raider wrote:CCP has decided to reverse decades of research into human-computer interaction and has deliberately decided to make the mouse hard to use.
Despite controller users effectively driving around automatic aiming, tracking, target selecting bots (some with autofire too), the controller remains a clunky piece of hardware that has not seen any improvements in usability for over a decade. I mean this on both a hardware and software level. Instead of improving the software implimentation of controllers so they can compete with mice, ccp has decided to nerf the mouse.
In nerfing the mouse, they gave no consideration for multi button mice so almost all controller buttons are hard mapped to the keyboard in order to train us kbm users for the next global finger gymnastics championsips
Even so, controller users persist with their inane whining. Ever tried to select a defend order with kbm? It's so bugged it's impossible.
tl;dr Don't expect any love for kbm from ccp.
You're right, I should just give up. Improving and progressing this game must be such a painful, arduous process for the developers. Perhaps if they spent less time breaking things and listening to the community, they could be implementing features instead of painstakingly administering respecs and ISK refunds.
Today's society is all about speed. We want things fast, we want things now. When it takes three weeks to throw out a tiny balance to a gun that is so obviously overpowered, for example, any hope for churning out meaningful content in a decent timeframe is simply a pipe dream. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
1811
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 00:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Utsuru Kaiju wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:Aiming speed is capped depending on class as to not screw over pad users. That basic functionality is unlikely to change. I could care less if there is a turning speed cap or an aiming speed cap, as long as the mouse moves as quickly as a DS3 can I don't care, I'm not trying to get an advantage, I just greatly prefer the feel of a mouse and keyboard. If you would have taken the time to read the OP, you would have seen that is not the issue, and instead of trying to bash these simple concepts into your head I'll refrain in the hope that you will try your best to read.
Yes he actually is correct that the penalty is actually causing the mouse to rotate far slower than the DS3 can. The acceleration penalty clearly needs some tweaking. |
Setaceous Prime
Nexus Prima
54
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 00:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Here are my mouse settings:
Mouse DPI - No idea, cheap lenovo mouse from the spares at work
Mouse Sensitivity - 90
Aim Assist - OFF
Mouse Smoothing - OFF
Testing between the DS3 and the mouse reveals almost no difference at all. In-fact the mouse seems to work better (especially with scope and iron sight tracking). I'm going to stick with my conspiracy theory that CCP coded something specifically for fancy mice  |
Utsuru Kaiju
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
63
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 00:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Setaceous Prime wrote:Here are my mouse settings: Mouse DPI - No idea, cheap lenovo mouse from the spares at work Mouse Sensitivity - 90 Aim Assist - OFF Mouse Smoothing - OFF Testing between the DS3 and the mouse reveals almost no difference at all. In-fact the mouse seems to work better (especially with scope and iron sight tracking). I'm going to stick with my conspiracy theory that CCP coded something specifically for fancy mice
Did you test if rotation speeds are different if you move the mouse across the pad slower or faster? |
S Park Finner
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
126
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 02:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
I've noticed the same behaviour as the OP. I agree it seems counter intuitive.
The the character turns faster when the mouse moves faster up to the turn limit. The problem is that for a give distance of mouse movement the arc the character turns is greater when the mouse is moving slowly. That's understandable because of turn speed limits but it doesn't change that it just feels wrong.
Slow mouse movement should produce slower character movement and the relationship between mouse movement distance and character movement distance should increase. Rapid mouse movement should produce faster character movement and the relationship between mouse movement and character movement distance should decrease.
The problem is complicated by the practical problem of trying to make sudden small adjustments -- like when you are trying to track a target jumping around. The mouse is moving quickly but you want to the character movement to be small and exactly track the mouse movement. That's the opposite of the general case above.
I don't know if the information the game gets from the mouse can identify sudden small adjustments and treat them differently from fast longer movements (like when you want to swing around to get at someone shooting you in the back). If it could that might be a way to deal with some of this issue.
I don't pretend to know if these are the right numbers but I was thinking something like this...
Up to three inches of mouse movement at any speed the character moves 5 degrees per inch as fast (or as slowly) as the mouse is moved. Beyond three inches of continuous movement rapid movement accelerates the character turn speed up to the suit limit.
Mouse "sensitivity" changes the ratio of inches of mouse movement to degrees of character movement. More sensitive means instead of a three inch window and 5 degrees you have (say) a two inch window.
Zooming has a similar effect except instead of change the window it changes the number of degrees. More zoom reduces the number of degrees an inch of mouse movement will move the character.
I suspect that polling rates and samples per second rather than inches are what have to be measured but that doesn't change the idea.
tl:dr For small mouse movements turn the character as fast or slowly as the mouse moves. For longer mouse movements cap the turn rate at the suit turn rate.
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Setaceous Prime
Nexus Prima
55
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 02:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Utsuru Kaiju wrote:Setaceous Prime wrote:Here are my mouse settings: Mouse DPI - No idea, cheap lenovo mouse from the spares at work Mouse Sensitivity - 90 Aim Assist - OFF Mouse Smoothing - OFF Testing between the DS3 and the mouse reveals almost no difference at all. In-fact the mouse seems to work better (especially with scope and iron sight tracking). I'm going to stick with my conspiracy theory that CCP coded something specifically for fancy mice Did you test if rotation speeds are different if you move the mouse across the pad slower or faster?
They were at lower sensitivity settings and pretty much vanished once I turned it up. I suspect it will be different for every mouse type. |
Schalac 17
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
242
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 03:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
If you want to ***** about the mouse, do so for a problem that actually matters. Like using the radial menu with the mouse. Since uprising I have shied away from being squad leader because it is nigh impossible to call a defend order with the mouse now. And pulling out different equipments on my logi suit is a test of patience in itself. |
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